Explain turning undead to me please.

[Krasuss]

Once again wiki fails so please dont link to it... its written by people who understand the game and therefore doesnt explain it to those who dont because it makes assumptions about what you understand.

Turning check:

Your effective turning level.
- For a Paladin i'm seeing this as Paladin level -3, plus bonuses. So a Level 23 Paladin with Improved Turning (1) and Hallowed 6 would give a level of 27 ??

A die roll (1d20 + your charisma modifier) that adds a positive/negative bonus (from -4 to +4) according to a set table.
- Lets say we roll a 10, Modifier is 15, the table would say +4

Any bonus to your maximum hit dice from other sources.
- Silver Flame would give +6

So the maximum number of hit dice I could turn would be 37 (27+4+6). Now, unlike damage, im assuming that is not accumulative. Its per monster.

Now, lets say, off that, I face just one monster with 30 hit dice. I can turn it, but, if I dont roll enough on damage (2d6 + 15 is only a maximum of 27) I cant do anything to it?

[SpartanKiller13]

Once again wiki fails so please dont link to it... its written by people who understand the game and therefore doesnt explain it to those who dont because it makes assumptions about what you understand.

Turning check:
Your effective turning level.
- For a Paladin i'm seeing this as Paladin level -3, plus bonuses. So a Level 23 Paladin with Improved Turning (1) and Hallowed 6 would give a level of 27 ??
A die roll (1d20 + your charisma modifier) that adds a positive/negative bonus (from -4 to +4) according to a set table.
- Lets say we roll a 10, Modifier is 15, the table would say +4
Any bonus to your maximum hit dice from other sources.
- Silver Flame would give +6

So the maximum number of hit dice I could turn would be 37 (27+4+6). Now, unlike damage, im assuming that is not accumulative. Its per monster.

Now, lets say, off that, I face just one monster with 30 hit dice. I can turn it, but, if I dont roll enough on damage (2d6 + 15 is only a maximum of 27) I cant do anything to it?

Well, take it with a grain of salt but here's how I see it:

Paladin level -3, for you as a level 23 Paladin you only have 20 Paladin levels = 17. I don't think epic/legendary levels count as Paladin or Cleric levels for Turning? Then +1 Improved Turning (feat) and +6 from Hallowed 6 and likely +3 from Improved Turning (KotC T4, if you pick it) = 27 ETL.

Then yeah, the die roll which is sort of a joke for Cha-based toons gives +4, and Max Turning Hit Die +6 so yeah 27+4+6 = 37. So you can turn monsters with up to 37 Hit Die (that's your Max Hit Die for Turning).

Next comes the Turning Damage:

ETL (same as earlier, 27) + 2d6 (avg 7) + Cha (15 from you) + total HD from other sources (+6 from KotC T4 Improved Turning) = 48 + 2d6, average = 55 HD worth of enemies.

You will pretty much always be able to turn at least one enemy if you have enough max HD for them, because ETL applies to both and 2d6+Cha+other is ~always more than 4+other.

-----

If you want a lil more fun you can also try Exalted Angel T2, which given you have Improved Turning feat will give +3 ETL, +3 MHD, and +3 HD (which would make your Max HD 43, and your average result 61 HD).

You can also try higher-level gear (level 20 has +9 Hallowed/Sacred) and by level 30 you can get +13). Can try filigree as well (although I wouldn't recommend it).

If you want to have fun with a Turning build, I'd recommend Sacred Fist Paladin, Cleric, or 18/2 Paladin/Cleric. You really want access to Radiant Servant T2's Mighty Turning, which kills stuff instead of just cowering it and the 18/2 split or Clerics can pick an elemental domain which allows you to turn elementals as well (or Animals with Animal domain, but eh).

I ran an 18/2 Pally/Cleric 2-3 months ago, and with Chainmail Coif at 10/20/30 as my only turning gear I had a ton of success. I have 2 Cleric PL's, but they're not a huge difference past earlygame. I really went for it (both Improved Turning enhancements -KotC T4 and Radiant Servant T2- as well as Mighty Turning, Improved Turning feat, and EA T1) but it was incredibly fun whenever there were undead or elementals around. As a Cha-max toon I had 50+ turns by cap, and it's very spammable for group encounters.

Might Turning is really important though, without it (or against deathward mobs/champs) you get useful CC but it's not nearly as fun as walking in and clearing the room with a few hits of the button

[LightBear]

I recall that the difference between destroying and "cowering" used to be based on the div between your ability to turn and the undead to resist it.
And cowering between quotes as it should have resulted in the undead fleeing away from you.

People got angry that they had to chace undead all the way to the start of Delera's for a door to open so that they could progress or possibly become unreachable because they disappeared behind that closed door.

Anyway, pick up destroy undead from any possible source because if you fail your check for the entire pack you can still destroy a few of them and keep destroying a few at a time on each of "your turns".
Otherwise you keep cowering the same few undead(s) while the rest is unbothered.

Anyway, this is what I want to say about it for now.

[Enoach]

Turning can be a bit confusing for those that have not seen this type of calculation before but let me see if I can make this clear(er)

First to understand is there is actually two parts to this calculation

Turning check: This determines the maximum number of Hit Dice a monster can have and still be affected from your turn undead attempt.

This determines the How Tough you can turn

Now the Turning Check is based off of a D20 Roll + Your Charisma Modifier and then compared to a table here. The lowest bonus is -4 and the highest is +4
Note: A Charisma Modifier of +21 which is a Charisma of 52 is currently the cap for bonus and would always be the Max bonus

Taking the above bonus between -4 and +4 you add this to your effective level: Cleric 1 for 1, Paladin is -3 of the Paladin Level

The Toughest HD you can turn = Effective Turning Level (ETL) + the bonus from the table (-4 to +4) + Enhancement/Gear Source Bonus to Turn Checks

In your case "A Level 23 Paladin with Improved Turning (1) and Hallowed 6 would give a level of 27 "

You are correct
37 = 20 (Paladin ETL) + 4 (Max bonus) + 7 (Improved Turning 1 and Hallowed 6)
*Hallowed 6 applies to your Max HD

This means that any undead with HD more than 37 will not be affected by your turn attempt. Keep in mind that CR does not equal HD it is a calculation



Turning damage: This determines the number of total Hit Dice you will be able to turn.

This is what determines the How Many you can turn

Pool = 2d6 + 20 (ETL) + Charisma Modifier + Enhancement/Gear that effects Total Hit Dice

47 = 6 + 20 (ETL) + 21 (assumed Charisma Modifier with Cha of 52)

what this means is that this will only effect 47 HD worth, so as each monster is affected subtract its HD from the Pool and that is what can be applied.

--------
Say we have x number of Undead (two HD 20, 1 HD 38 and 1 HD 36)

With your Turn Check we know that anything 31 HD and lower can be affected
With your Total (turn damage) you have 47 HD

Effectively you can turn 2 from the 20 HD and 36 HD

---
Now there are two types of Turning
Cower and Destroy

Cower is an effective stun that is not broken with on hit, but is also not considered helpless and it based on length of time.

To be able to Destroy you need the Turn Check to be twice the HD of the Turnable Monster. For the 20HD in the above example this will need to be a Turn Check of 40.
Another way is via an enhancement that allows you to destroy any undead you can affect (recent changes have fixed an issue where Death Ward would negate this enhancement, these creatures are not destroyed but they will be coward instead)

----
Now keep in mind that when you look at a creature you see their CR not their HD - Some time ago the development team tied CR to a calculation to determine HD which doesn't work very well and is part of what I feel is a problem with the Turning System (but I digress)

If the Turn Check is not High enough to affect any Turnable monsters it does not matter what the Turn Damage

---
A change to the system I would like to see is adding to the Turn Check table so that it expands beyond the +4 maximum bonus.

[droid327]

The way that turning works in DDO is it doesn't lol

[Tyrande]

[...]
Anyway, pick up destroy undead from any possible source because if you fail your check for the entire pack you can still destroy a few of them and keep destroying a few at a time on each of "your turns".
Otherwise you keep cowering the same few undead(s) while the rest is unbothered.
[...]

I haven't build a turn-<any holy character>. It sounds like having Mighty Turning is very important to the fun and experience. That means having the Radiant Servant tree, and that means either Cleric or Sacred Fist and also having the Hallowed and Scared +13 items.

The way that turning works in DDO is it doesn't lol

Make we wonder why we have all those undead dungeons since 2006? In the beginning, Gygax made Deleras. Then the Necropolis I, II, III, IV and the Abbot. Then we have Ravenloft, all undead. Epic Deleras, Epic Necropolis and Legendary Abbot. Followed by Legendary Ravenloft and Strahd.

Vecna is also an undead lich.... why does all these undead exist? because turning does not work in DDO.

and the Sunsword, it specifically says it only works for Strahd...

[SpartanKiller13]

The way that turning works in DDO is it doesn't lol

I would like to invite ya to try it

It works at least in mid-Reaper endgame, so YMMV on what you consider not working

Do a life as a Cha-max 18/2 Pally/Cleric or a Sacred Fist with a lil gear support (I used Chainmail Coif x3) and some AP thrown at it. See how it goes! It's pretty fun and actually not bad.

Being able to instakill elementals was what sold me, between those and undead you get value from turning in what seems like a majority of DDO's quests.

[Alphabox]

Awesome!!!

Can you use Turning Undead without equipping Holy Symbol?

Unfortunately, Holy Symbol is not implemented in DDO.
What you think is Turning Undead is something similar to Turning Undead.
When will developers implement Holy Symbol?

Except for Lolth believers.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

Are cowering skeletons (this animation is sometimes visible, although not that often, imho) counting as "helpless" ? I mean, the state of "helpless" gives more damage against helpless monsters, doesn't it ?

[Enoach]

Are cowering skeletons (this animation is sometimes visible, although not that often, imho) counting as "helpless" ? I mean, the state of "helpless" gives more damage against helpless monsters, doesn't it ?

They are not considered helpless. This state is a timed event and cannot be broken. A good use of this state is to reduce the amount of incoming damage, giving the DPS of the group more time with less incoming damage.

[jskinner937]

Once again wiki fails so please dont link to it... its written by people who understand the game and therefore doesnt explain it to those who dont because it makes assumptions about what you understand.

Turning check:

Your effective turning level.
- For a Paladin i'm seeing this as Paladin level -3, plus bonuses. So a Level 23 Paladin with Improved Turning (1) and Hallowed 6 would give a level of 27 ??

A die roll (1d20 + your charisma modifier) that adds a positive/negative bonus (from -4 to +4) according to a set table.
- Lets say we roll a 10, Modifier is 15, the table would say +4

Any bonus to your maximum hit dice from other sources.
- Silver Flame would give +6

So the maximum number of hit dice I could turn would be 37 (27+4+6). Now, unlike damage, im assuming that is not accumulative. Its per monster.

Now, lets say, off that, I face just one monster with 30 hit dice. I can turn it, but, if I dont roll enough on damage (2d6 + 15 is only a maximum of 27) I cant do anything to it?

Turning, like banishment and dismissal, scale terribly in high reapers, since hit die scale with difficulty. It seems that these abilities/spells could be simplified like a normal DC instakill. The sad thing is if you compare death to undead to turning, it is just flat out better in r10. Same could be said comparing destruction, phantsmal killer or finger of death to banishment. It just makes no sense and should be looked at.