Should a SK SF splash Monk?

[shawnvw]

My four-person party will consist of Iconics. I'm going to make a Shadar-Kai splash and level him as a Sacred Fist. I know the group will consist of an Alchemist, a Rogue, and a class to be named later, but I suspect I'll largely be tanking.

Some on this forum have suggested that splash a level of Monk too. I don't want to invest too heavily in Monk, because I find it complicated to play.

What's the difference between a Shadar-Kai 1/Sacred Fist 19 and a Shadar-Kai 1/Monk 1/Sacred Fist 18? By which I mean:

- What would I gain, besides Monk weapons and Lesser stances?

- Would even those few abilities change my play style? Would I play more like a monk or a Sacred Fist?

[talanh133]

What's the difference between a Shadar-Kai 1/Sacred Fist 19 and a Shadar-Kai 1/Monk 1/Sacred Fist 18? By which I mean:

- What would I gain, besides Monk weapons and Lesser stances?

- Would even those few abilities change my play style? Would I play more like a monk or a Sacred Fist?

1) You would gain a martial arts feat, for one. You'd also gain the lesser stances, yes, but you would also gain the ability to grab the higher level stances as you level up. You'd have to spend a feat on them to do so, however, rather than getting them free as a monk does. Thing is, you don't lose much from SF by going SF 18 instead of SF 19. An extra 4th level spell slot, and all, sure. But no special class features. I believe that, generally, they're suggesting monk because of the extra martial arts feat that 1st level monk grants.

2) Only as much as you want them to. If you go SK 1/Monk 1/SF 18, you don't have to use any of your feats to acquire the later forms feats, and don't have to use any of the elemental attacks or finishing moves. So you'd play very similarly to a SK 1/SF 19. Just with an extra feat, one fewer level 4 spell slots, and so on. On the flip side, you could pick up the form feats, make use of the elemental attacks and finishing moves, which would lead to you playing more like a monk. Albeit one without the fists of light/darkness and various other goodies monks get. But if you find monk too complicated and don't enjoy it, I'd skip the feats. You could always grab them for the stances, ignore the attacks, and carry on. The stances themselves are quite nice. Are they nice enough for giving up other feats you can use to punch people better with your flaming fists of justice? Dunno.

[shawnvw]

1) You would gain a martial arts feat, for one. You'd also gain the lesser stances, yes, but you would also gain the ability to grab the higher level stances as you level up. You'd have to spend a feat on them to do so, however, rather than getting them free as a monk does.

[snip]

If you go SK 1/Monk 1/SF 18, you don't have to use any of your feats to acquire the later forms feats...

This is really interesting, but I don't see where this is described. How can I gain higher-level stances as a Sacred Fist?

[shawnvw]

1) You would gain a martial arts feat, for one.

I just realized something: if I wait until Character Level 15 to take my first level of Monk, I'll have the prerequisites for a lot more of the Martial Arts feats. For instance, some require BAB +4 or Wis +13; it's harder to get those when I'm still Level 2.

So I'm leaning towards Shadar-Kai 1/Sacred Fist 13/Monk 1, then level up as SF from there!

[Hobgoblin51]

I just realized something: if I wait until Character Level 15 to take my first level of Monk, I'll have the prerequisites for a lot more of the Martial Arts feats. For instance, some require BAB +4 or Wis +13; it's harder to get those when I'm still Level 2.

So I'm leaning towards Shadar-Kai 1/Sacred Fist 13/Monk 1, then level up as SF from there!

before you make any hasty moves - realize you can move from trainer to trainor. i dont think anything requieres more the 6 bab, so you can do 1 sdk sf for 5 or 6 levels then monk. that allows you, if wanted to take adept or master at 9 or 12 etc

[shawnvw]

before you make any hasty moves - realize you can move from trainer to trainor. i dont think anything requieres more the 6 bab, so you can do 1 sdk sf for 5 or 6 levels then monk. that allows you, if wanted to take adept or master at 9 or 12 etc

True, but since this is an iconic and I won't actually start playing until he's 15th level, waiting until then to add the monk level is probably safest

[talanh133]

This is really interesting, but I don't see where this is described. How can I gain higher-level stances as a Sacred Fist?

I may not have been clear on my wording. What I meant was that while acquiring the higher level stances is possible, you do not have to do so if you don't wish to, and it may not be the best use of your feats.

In order to gain the higher level stances you do need at least one level of monk. Here is the note on the wiki about Grandmaster of Forms, for instance.

This feat is automatically granted at Monk level 18. Any character with at least one Monk level, eighteen character levels, and Master of Forms can select this feat at levelup as a normal feat.

So by taking one level of monk, you'll gain the Way of Air/Fire/Earth/Water, which gives the stances and attacks. Then at level 6 you can select Adept of Forms, to increase those. Then at 12 you can select Master of Forms, and 18 Grandmaster of Forms. But you will not get them automatically the way a full monk does, instead you use a feat to grab them. But they are available as a feat selection to anyone with the right level and at least one level of monk.

True, but since this is an iconic and I won't actually start playing until he's 15th level, waiting until then to add the monk level is probably safest

You can absolutely wait until 15 to grab your monk level. The only reason to do otherwise would be to grab a martial arts feat earlier that is a prerequisite for a different feat you want later. An example. Let's say you want Whirlwind attack at 15(though you should be able to grab it sooner, but it depends on your plan for leveling). You can take monk at 12, use the martial arts feat for dodge, the regular feat for mobility, and you've covered the prerequisites for WWA at 15.

Ultimately, it's up to you when you take the monk level, if you do. Look at the martial arts feats, look at the feats you want to make your build work, and go from there. I will state that there's no real reason to put off waiting until later levels for your martial arts feat, however. Monks get their last martial arts feat at level 6, so I don't believe any of them have a higher BAB requirement than +4. I would also suggest going to the wiki and looking at the martial arts feat list, just to be sure there's one you want. There undoubtedly is, but... Going to check doesn't hurt.