Kensei Competence HP bonus

[SpartanKiller13]

Kensei's +25% Competence HP bonus was added onto Weapon Master, which require Greater Weapon Focus. GWF requires 8 levels of Fighter, hence you need Fighter 8 to get HP from T5 Kensei.

Can this be changed to a different enhancement (I'd pick Keen Edge), or can GWF be removed as a pre-requisite from Weapon Master, or can GWF be changed to only require Fighter 5? Otherwise it's strictly behind other T5's which support multiclassing better than Kensei does.

I've done a variety of Fighter 6 splits to get melee crit profile from Kensei, and any T5 Kensei with <8 Fighter levels is going to be in an awkward spot. Some builds can use Stalwart Defender stance sometimes, but that gives +150% threat minimum which isn't viable in a lot of cases, costs 13 AP, and requires Medium/Heavy armor or a shield.

My understanding is that one of the design principles is to encourage build diversity, but this is definitely discouraging a variety of builds I can see. I'm starting this thread because I'm writing up a 10/6/4 Monk/Fighter/Ranger Dex-max GSword build; I could go 8/8/4 and get +25% HP but then I can't get a Monk PL - and as a centered build I don't qualify for StD's improved stance.

[01000010]

Kensei's +25% Competence HP bonus was added onto Weapon Master, which require Greater Weapon Focus. GWF requires 8 levels of Fighter, hence you need Fighter 8 to get HP from T5 Kensei.

Can this be changed to a different enhancement (I'd pick Keen Edge), or can GWF be removed as a pre-requisite from Weapon Master, or can GWF be changed to only require Fighter 5? Otherwise it's strictly behind other T5's which support multiclassing better than Kensei does.

I've done a variety of Fighter 6 splits to get melee crit profile from Kensei, and any T5 Kensei with <8 Fighter levels is going to be in an awkward spot. Some builds can use Stalwart Defender stance sometimes, but that gives +150% threat minimum which isn't viable in a lot of cases, costs 13 AP, and requires Medium/Heavy armor or a shield.

My understanding is that one of the design principles is to encourage build diversity, but this is definitely discouraging a variety of builds I can see. I'm starting this thread because I'm writing up a 10/6/4 Monk/Fighter/Ranger Dex-max GSword build; I could go 8/8/4 and get +25% HP but then I can't get a Monk PL - and as a centered build I don't qualify for StD's improved stance.

Heh, Design principles? Encouraging Build Diversity? Ignore what people say, watch what they do. Yeah, 8fighter req for tier 5 is absurd, plainly.

[Wizard1406]

Yeah 8 fighter req., 3 feat and 9 (!) points enhancement tax is much too high, please change. Lost over 300 HP in reaper from the change (outside only ~200 for some reason)

edit: seems, heroic toughness buff gives significantly less HP than old EDF. You need the competence bonus from enhancements to be higher than old EDF, sometimes quite a bit higher, which is nice. But that bonus should be reachable for all.

[SpartanKiller13]

Heh, Design principles? Encouraging Build Diversity? Ignore what people say, watch what they do. Yeah, 8fighter req for tier 5 is absurd, plainly.

I mean that was part of the theory with the imbue pass, right? *shifty eyes*

Yeah 8 fighter req., 3 feat and 9 (!) points enhancement tax is much too high, please change. Lost over 300 HP in reaper from the change (outside only ~200 for some reason)

edit: seems, heroic toughness buff gives significantly less HP than old EDF. You need the competence bonus from enhancements to be higher than old EDF, sometimes quite a bit higher, which is nice. But that bonus should be reachable for all.

If you're getting any source of Competence HP it's probably a HP buff, but if not it's rough lol. I think they expected melee T5's to be getting said Competence bonus, but there are a variety of niche builds and some (like this) which aren't always available even to builds using that T5.

If you're using Med/Heavy/shield and don't mind the threat, can try StD's defender stance? It's not always an option but might be available depending on your split.

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Conversely my current life as a Fire Savant Sorc I hit 20 and respecced for T5 EK, I'm getting 15% HP for very low opportunity cost I was going to run Feydark C5 for free Enlarge, but the HP are definitely worth it for me.

I'm definitely a melee build, ignore the spellcasting spam lol.

[Strider1963]

Apparently the devs "build diversity" only works for some people? I wish they had just left EDF and eliminated the no casting penalty. The way it is now is really not very diverse at all, but merely another unwanted change to a lot of peoples builds. The same with the damage dice. They only work if you have access to an imbue, right?? So if your favorite build doesnt have an imbue somewhere in their trees, again, just another nerf. Isnt it great?

[SpartanKiller13]

Apparently the devs "build diversity" only works for some people? I wish they had just left EDF and eliminated the no casting penalty. The way it is now is really not very diverse at all, but merely another unwanted change to a lot of peoples builds. The same with the damage dice. They only work if you have access to an imbue, right?? So if your favorite build doesn't have an imbue somewhere in their trees, again, just another nerf. Isn't it great?

So you're fine with just +25% HP to every caster that can afford 4 feats? I'm not sure that's build diversity either though lol. Also like 90% of DDO's toons getting the same +25% Competence HP sorta defeats the purpose, no? Maybe if it did something like set your non-positive spellpower to 0 (and ranged power like originally), or your spell crits all to 0 or something?

I mean the point of EDF was to help melee survivability lol. It had problems (such as rezzing or less teamwork in general), and this fix also has problems (like some caster/ranged builds getting the HP and some melee builds not) but the direction at least seems good? In theory there's opportunity cost so melees will get defensive perks and ranged/caster toons have to choose between getting the same tankiness or getting better at their specialty (although I'm not sold on the current iteration thereof).

Same with imbues; if you don't have one now you probably didn't have a +1d6 enhancement prior to the update, so it's no loss. Not a nerf if you didn't get something lol, that's just not a buff? The enemy HP didn't go up so your expected output vs result is the same.

If you did have one, it's usually a gain? Possibly some builds lost 2.5% damage by dropping 16d6 from 2-piece Reverb on a non-imbue Cha build?

[Marshal_Lannes]

The cost for Kensai is too high. In general, I feel the HP pass was a success. My only issue is that the standards are not consistent. So, Kensai, for example, requires 8 levels of fighter and feats. Occult Slayer requires Medium or Heavy armor. Vanguard requires nothing at all. Are these distinctions based on game balance or arbitrary? And how am I supposed to remember them all? Seems like one universal standard and metric would have been far easier to manage.

[KoobTheProud]

Fighters should get their HP from something other than the T5's. HP are a class attribute for Fighters and maybe Barbarians as well.

It should be more like Fighters get +5% stacking competence bonus to HP for each pure melee feat they take. A new stack opening up every 2 levels. So at Fighter 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18 and 20. Max HP Competence bonus is 50% from all sources.

Pure melee feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Slicing Blow, Stunning Blow, Combat Expertise, Precision, Whirlwind Attack, Spring Attack, Knight's Training, Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Mastery, Greater Shield Mastery, Shield Deflection, Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Superior Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Great Weapon Specialization, Tactical Training, Tactical Combat, Tactical Mastery, Tactical Supremacy, Heavy Armor Training, Heavy Armor Combatant, Heavy Armor Master and Heavy Armor Champion.

This would open up a wide range of pure Fighter builds and also allow splashes of Fighter, combined with appropriate feats, to boost other primary classes HP including their T5 enhancements. The Fighter T5's that give competence bonus could be repurposed to give Fighters other advantages.

[Bjond]

Kensei's +25% Competence HP bonus was added onto Weapon Master, which require Greater Weapon Focus. GWF requires 8 levels of Fighter

The entire T5 method for giving HP should never have been done. It kills diversity.

Here's some more nonsense: bard only gets 20%. Rogue gets 25%. Heh? They're the same "hit dice" / bab-progression type of class. Also, in Swash the HP was added to "Second Skin", which is something ranged builds can grab. It wasn't supposed to be in reach of ranged builds (swash should have it in the melee selector for "coup de grace" only).

Rogue/TA has it in "Staff Specialization", which costs extra AP for tons of builds -- the non-staff ones that use the tree for it's defensives.

Barbarian/OS requires medium|heavy armor, which forces T5 in another tree -- effectively deleting OS T5.

[SpartanKiller13]

The entire T5 method for giving HP should never have been done. It kills diversity.

Here's some more nonsense: bard only gets 20%. Rogue gets 25%. Heh? They're the same "hit dice" / bab-progression type of class. Also, in Swash the HP was added to "Second Skin", which is something ranged builds can grab. It wasn't supposed to be in reach of ranged builds (swash should have it in the melee selector for "coup de grace" only).

Rogue/TA has it in "Staff Specialization", which costs extra AP for tons of builds -- the non-staff ones that use the tree for it's defensives.

Barbarian/OS requires medium|heavy armor, which forces T5 in another tree -- effectively deleting OS T5.

How many builds aren't currently using a T5? I don't think I've seen one of those in years, and I look at a lot of builds lol. Can argue that more T5s should have a HP bonus, but that's a different issue. I'd have much preferred a Preview 3, and I'll be happier if they keep making small changes for these as time goes on (like adding something to DWS).

Bard has partial casting, Rogue does not. Full casters only get 15% as well. It's not tied to HD, it's tied to caster ability of the class - at least that's the stated reasoning behind who gets 15/20/25% HP:

Primary melees who get 25% (the tank trees got increased too)
Caster/Range Melee Hybrids who only get 20% though you can still splash into fighter/paladin/bear and now now occult slayer
Nuker Melee Hybrids who get only 15% (again they can still splash)

It's not like a T5 ranged SB build can't take the melee version of Coup de Grace, but for sure at least then there'd be some cost for doing so. One of my guildies has a ranged Falconry build and just got +25% HP for free because they didn't look at the multiselector. I'd take it over 10 RP every time, but YMMV. I think the reason it's in Second Skin is because that's already a defensive enhancement? But yeah, basically no reason not to grab it.

I'm not really sure how OS T5 requiring Medium/Heavy deletes the tree; most Barb builds I've seen are in Medium armor? Multiclass builds getting wild crit profiles won't be in OS either (either Ravager or FB T5 depending on if they need range or multiplier). OS is also in a T4 which is super nice for some multiclass splits?

[elvesunited]

The entire T5 method for giving HP should never have been done. It kills diversity.

Here's some more nonsense: bard only gets 20%. Rogue gets 25%. Heh? They're the same "hit dice" / bab-progression type of class. Also, in Swash the HP was added to "Second Skin", which is something ranged builds can grab. It wasn't supposed to be in reach of ranged builds (swash should have it in the melee selector for "coup de grace" only).

Rogue/TA has it in "Staff Specialization", which costs extra AP for tons of builds -- the non-staff ones that use the tree for it's defensives.

Barbarian/OS requires medium|heavy armor, which forces T5 in another tree -- effectively deleting OS T5.

I assumed that spellcasters get 20%. Non-spellcasters get 25%.
But really it comes to winners and losers.
Some builds fall while others rise.
My Kensei Shuriken character got taken out of retirement after this update. ( fight 8, ranger 6, monk 6 ) and got quite the chunk of hp. ( +131 hp + 25% comp + 3 uses of second wind )

[Marshal_Lannes]

I'm not really sure how OS T5 requiring Medium/Heavy deletes the tree; most Barb builds I've seen are in Medium armor? Multiclass builds getting wild crit profiles won't be in OS either (either Ravager or FB T5 depending on if they need range or multiplier). OS is also in a T4 which is super nice for some multiclass splits?

Some believe barbarians should only be in light armor. I play all my barbarians in medium. Either way, I don't understand these sweeping statements where someone says a whole tree is invalid because they want evasion and assume everyone else views it as a must-have also. Especially when you now consider a medium armor OS barbarian is going to have a lot more HPs than a light armor wearing FB.

[misterski]

I assumed that spellcasters get 20%. Non-spellcasters get 25%.
But really it comes to winners and losers.
Some builds fall while others rise.
My Kensei Shuriken character got taken out of retirement after this update. ( fight 8, ranger 6, monk 6 ) and got quite the chunk of hp. ( +131 hp + 25% comp + 3 uses of second wind )

I wonder if you'll be keeping the HP bonus in the future. It's obvious they didn't want ranged users to get the bonus but due to the way that thrown weapons are grouped with melee weapons they do get it, for now.

[elvesunited]

I wonder if you'll be keeping the HP bonus in the future. It's obvious they didn't want ranged users to get the bonus but due to the way that thrown weapons are grouped with melee weapons they do get it, for now.

I doubt they'll change it. It would be one thing if the high end Ranger Archer or Tier 5 Inquisitive builds were getting the hp comp bonus. But the obscure thrower builds? Even with the extra hp they are still well behind the other ranged builds.

[Bjond]

How many builds aren't currently using a T5?

A fair few of mine never took a T5, but then almost none of my builds are anywhere near common. Well, except for my ranged DPS. If you want a top ranged DPS build, you don't really need to hit forums for it. It pretty much builds itself other than a few minor details.

Bard has partial casting, Rogue does not

That's the kind of thinking that makes me feel like the devs have never played D&D. Rogues are 3/4 BAB like Bards because of all the other "extra" things they can do besides DPS. Bards get buffs, songs, and skills. Rogues get more skills, TRAPPING, and sneak attack.

Skills don't matter much in DDO. It's easy to discount them here, but arguing that a melee Bard is a "caster" is laughable. You might as well argue that Ranger and Paladin can cast spells and thus should 20% instead of 25.

Some believe barbarians should only be in light armor

It's not a matter of "should". Barbarians have improved uncanny dodge. In order to maximize that to where you can tank a Doom, you have to be in light. This is why I feel that Rogue & Barbarian are the only melee classes for low-PL in high reaper. An extra 10% HP in OS is meaningless versus a Doom.

obscure thrower builds? Even with the extra hp they are still well behind the other ranged builds.

Maximized at-cap thrower builds are all a little uncommon -- not to each other, but compared to non-thrower they mix&match a lot more among various classes.

I agree on the extra HP, though. I reworked my thrower for U57 and the class mix does permit a 25%, but I didn't take it. It would have meant giving up primary DPS and my thrower pretty much doesn't need defense (if I'm paying attention ).

[SpartanKiller13]

I doubt they'll change it. It would be one thing if the high end Ranger Archer or Tier 5 Inquisitive builds were getting the hp comp bonus. But the obscure thrower builds? Even with the extra hp they are still well behind the other ranged builds.

Honestly I expect a fair number of small changes in the next few updates, as things shake out - both for imbues and for HP bonuses. And probably some in a while lol.

What about like blaster Sorc getting the Comp HP bonus? It's not like T5 Savant is worth considering in epics lmao. I won't make any claim that my Sorc is high end, but there are high end Sorcs...

A fair few of mine never took a T5, but then almost none of my builds are anywhere near common. Well, except for my ranged DPS. If you want a top ranged DPS build, you don't really need to hit forums for it. It pretty much builds itself other than a few minor details.

Ya have any examples? I'm curious as much as anything TBH. So many trees have good stuff in T5 that it seems hard to pass up for anything other than the most flavorful of builds XD

That's the kind of thinking that makes me feel like the devs have never played D&D. Rogues are 3/4 BAB like Bards because of all the other "extra" things they can do besides DPS. Bards get buffs, songs, and skills. Rogues get more skills, TRAPPING, and sneak attack.

Skills don't matter much in DDO. It's easy to discount them here, but arguing that a melee Bard is a "caster" is laughable. You might as well argue that Ranger and Paladin can cast spells and thus should 20% instead of 25.

Hey I don't disagree, seems pretty odd to me that Rogues get the same HP boost as Paladins or Barbs. Let alone Falconry or VKF? I'd argue that Bard is more of a caster than Paladin (even melee Bard), but I'd also argue for 20% for Rogue personally.

It's not a matter of "should". Barbarians have improved uncanny dodge. In order to maximize that to where you can tank a Doom, you have to be in light. This is why I feel that Rogue & Barbarian are the only melee classes for low-PL in high reaper. An extra 10% HP in OS is meaningless versus a Doom.

It seems unreasonable to both have builds without a T5 and "the only metric in DDO is tanking Doom reapers" in the same comment? Anyway.

There's a LOT of builds and players that run a lot of stuff that doesn't include Dooms, and anecdotally I can say I've tanked Dooms on a Barb in Medium armor lol. The extra 10% is nice for everything else, which is a big part of the DDO experience to me. Using "Low-PL in high Reaper" as your only metric seems a bit unfair of a way to judge a tree. Personally I think OS is the best Barb tree for getting into Reaper, because A) you have some healing on-demand that's not dependent on getting kills and B) you have a lil extra HP buffer via 10% +Vamp Bond. I don't think entry reaper players should be the primary tank choice for a Doom reaper, and frankly I don't think new players should be running melee in high Reaper without a tank to keep them alive; running FB in light armor isn't going to change that.

I agree on the extra HP, though. I reworked my thrower for U57 and the class mix does permit a 25%, but I didn't take it. It would have meant giving up primary DPS and my thrower pretty much doesn't need defense (if I'm paying attention ).

But you'd be worse at tanking Dooms, so objectively that build is non-viable right? Right?

[Bjond]

Ya have any examples? I'm curious as much as anything TBH. So many trees have good stuff in T5 that it seems hard to pass up

Most sans T5 are old -- like warlock melee or my newbie bard that ended up with no AP left for a T5 after hunting and pecking all over trying to get tactics up to a point where the ice-freeze actually worked.

Others are VERY minimally into a T5 (like 2 AP with none to spare). Actually, almost all my builds have zero spare AP. The T5 HP boost killed my swash d.roll and it brutalized my PM/EK. I suspect melee EK is going to end up with a game-wide soft-delete. It's already a royal pain to build cuz of BAB-limits on melee feats.

BTW, it's not that there isn't anything good in the T5s, it's that many aren't worth the interim waste; eg. swash has good stuff at 6 and 11~13 AP then nothing. You're almost always going gain more spending AP elsewhere.

Others have good stuff in T5, like Warsoul, but then it's blocked by junk sub-T5 (it's all favored-only, which severely limits builds & side-lines the entire tree).

Very few trees have good stuff all over. VKF and INQ are good examples. It's easy to drop 41 AP into them with little waste or stop short with just 6 or 11 AP to get a few nice extras.

I'd also argue for 20% for Rogue personally.

LOL, yeah. I should shutup about bard v rogue HP. I'm gonna get rogue nerfed.

It seems unreasonable to both have builds without a T5 and "the only metric in DDO is tanking Doom reapers" in the same comment?

Different reply. Marshal was talking about the "barbs use medium" thing. I was pointing out why it makes sense for Barbs to use Light and specifically high-dps high-tanking R8+ Barbs, not just flavor builds.

IMHO, the entire "melee sucks" whine going around now revolves around R8+ (or R6 for those that wanted to take their "good enough" melee past R4) because playing a melee in R4 and lower isn't all that hard.

I think OS is the best Barb tree for getting into Reaper, because A) you have some healing on-demand that's not dependent on getting kills and B) you have a lil extra HP buffer via 10% +Vamp Bond.

You inadvertently hit on a point that touches one of my biggest peeves about DDO. That OS build works great up until R4 and then it dies because the self-heal isn't enough. Yeah, the self-heal penalty is primarily a melee penalty, but that's not what I see as the ultimate problem.

The problem is learning curve. So, you spend your time getting good and you're fine up to R4 and now you want to move up. Sorry. What worked R4 and lower no longer works in R8+. Your build is completely wrong. Your style of play as a melee is likely wrong. You're a newb again.

Lower difficulties should teach you how to play and they do for casters & ranged. Melee have a fairly solid wall of utter newbness around R6. Lower builds & play styles no longer work.

But you'd be worse at tanking Dooms, so objectively that build is non-viable right? Right?

Melee that can't tank a doom is not viable for me. I don't play in a static with a pure tank, though. So, my melee have to be able to DPS and Tank if I want to play them with groups that actually use teamwork as compared to a 6x zerg-solo.

The problem is really one of learning curve when you step past my personal requirements for a melee character. The casters and ranged have already learned what to do: cc or kite. Melee are stuck with "uh, I guess I need more PLs or RXP?" or "my build sucks" or the worst one (and likely not true) "maybe I'm just bad at this?"

It's bad game design compounded by deliberate ostriching with SSG's policy of never balancing for reaper.

[SpartanKiller13]

Most sans T5 are old -- like warlock melee or my newbie bard that ended up with no AP left for a T5 after hunting and pecking all over trying to get tactics up to a point where the ice-freeze actually worked.

Others are VERY minimally into a T5 (like 2 AP with none to spare). Actually, almost all my builds have zero spare AP. The T5 HP boost killed my swash d.roll and it brutalized my PM/EK. I suspect melee EK is going to end up with a game-wide soft-delete. It's already a royal pain to build cuz of BAB-limits on melee feats.

BTW, it's not that there isn't anything good in the T5s, it's that many aren't worth the interim waste; eg. swash has good stuff at 6 and 11~13 AP then nothing. You're almost always going gain more spending AP elsewhere.

Others have good stuff in T5, like Warsoul, but then it's blocked by junk sub-T5 (it's all favored-only, which severely limits builds & side-lines the entire tree).

Very few trees have good stuff all over. VKF and INQ are good examples. It's easy to drop 41 AP into them with little waste or stop short with just 6 or 11 AP to get a few nice extras.

I have a Bard temp HP toon that had no T5 for a while, but like now I'm happily in Warchanter T5 getting +20% HP lol. For Freezing Ice DC's I'd recommend dipping a divine or running PDK with CKT? But yeah, fair enough, but I haven't seen one in a while.

I expected the opposite TBH, my first glance looked like EK should be gaining a bit of damage. I already have dozens of hours in spreadsheets so far though and I haven't looked at them yet. Probably a bit less survivable but for like raids? Hmm.

For certain there's often terrible filler, but often worth wasting 15 AP to get the goodies lol. Warsoul has a good bit of non-useless filler (Divine Might, Haste Boost, Arcane Encumbrance, 10% DS, 10 PRR) so I'd rather that than FB on a handaxe SB build, but still yeah.

LOL, yeah. I should shutup about bard v rogue HP. I'm gonna get rogue nerfed.

Was definitely a shock to me seeing a guildy of mine having >3k in town on their Rogue lol. I'm not going to start a thread like this one but that does seem a lil egregious XD

Different reply. Marshal was talking about the "barbs use medium" thing. I was pointing out why it makes sense for Barbs to use Light and specifically high-dps high-tanking R8+ Barbs, not just flavor builds.

IMHO, the entire "melee sucks" whine going around now revolves around R8+ (or R6 for those that wanted to take their "good enough" melee past R4) because playing a melee in R4 and lower isn't all that hard.

Certainly was a different reply, but you both are ok with flavor and not ok with an entire tree because it's not as good at top-tier endgame lol. Those are fairly separate viewpoints IMO.

Medium on a Barb means no MRR cap which helps a bit? And a lil more PRR and MP. And you can get to like 20% Dodge which isn't horrible next to like 27% of Light (9% reduction or 30% with IUD?). If you're just assuming a DPS build can survive one Doom hit and get healed before the second given high Dodge that's fair, go Light for sure? For a tank Barb I'd expect you to be losing too much going light, but I guess YMMV.

I mean I have like 40ish PL's of melee and like 10ish of casters lol. I think blast-casting is overperforming b/c my first life as an undergeared Sorc is demolishing a lot of stuff that takes a lot better build and gearing to do as a melee; but I think melee is mostly fine? I'd like better tactics options, and I'd like the EDF/melee survivability buff of U57 to apply to melees and not non-melees but that's not seeming to happen lmao. I think DC casting is underperforming FWIW.

You inadvertently hit on a point that touches one of my biggest peeves about DDO. That OS build works great up until R4 and then it dies because the self-heal isn't enough. Yeah, the self-heal penalty is primarily a melee penalty, but that's not what I see as the ultimate problem.

The problem is learning curve. So, you spend your time getting good and you're fine up to R4 and now you want to move up. Sorry. What worked R4 and lower no longer works in R8+. Your build is completely wrong. Your style of play as a melee is likely wrong. You're a newb again.

Lower difficulties should teach you how to play and they do for casters & ranged. Melee have a fairly solid wall of utter newbness around R6. Lower builds & play styles no longer work.

Presumably as you start working up skulls you'll have acquired gear, PL's, experience, reaper points etc - and you'll have seen builds and improved your build as well? I have no problem with starter builds vs vet builds, and the variety of everywhere around that (high APM builds, low-button builds, etc). If you're trying to ride the same build from first life to 130th then your point is valid, but I'm not going to tell a new player to run a Ravager T5 build in a mid-Reaper group even if a vet can get the healing out of it; or a FB T5 build that a vet can survive with while outputting more DPS. Or a VKF capstone THF Barb lol, I'm going to recommend stuff that helps keep you alive. I'm happy to suggest different builds and build choices as someone progresses and I'll usually break down how I think about Barb trees if I'm talking to someone about it.

There's new skills to learn as you increase difficulty. Champs are a menace the first time you meet them. So are Plague/Vengy/Dooms - well every type of Reaper, depending on build. The same skillset will not carry you the whole way through DDO. Learning and improving is and should be a constant thing. New mechanics showing up as you increase difficulty is a part of the game - like PN's curse, or Reaper self-healing penalty. Do some playstyles require more learning or effort? Are there more tools available? Might a ranged DPS build just be able to "hit it until it dies" as their N-R10 strat - yeah for sure, but there's a lot more that can come out if you want to put the effort in?

Go in at higher difficulty with a tank. Try one with a pocket healer. Try soloing lower. Try it with a super-blaster behind ya. With a CC bot. See how things go. Watch your mega-completionist buddy, see what they do and ask questions. Ask why their Barb is in light armor, watch them tank a whole string of Dooms and learn lol.

Melee that can't tank a doom is not viable for me. I don't play in a static with a pure tank, though. So, my melee have to be able to DPS and Tank if I want to play them with groups that actually use teamwork as compared to a 6x zerg-solo.

The problem is really one of learning curve when you step past my personal requirements for a melee character. The casters and ranged have already learned what to do: cc or kite. Melee are stuck with "uh, I guess I need more PLs or RXP?" or "my build sucks" or the worst one (and likely not true) "maybe I'm just bad at this?"

It's bad game design compounded by deliberate ostriching with SSG's policy of never balancing for reaper.

None of your R8+ melee tank/DPS toons skipped having a T5, I'd put money on. J/S but yeah, being a bit survivable is definitely required for high-Reaper melee. If you're playing a DPS-focused melee in high reaper you have to use teamwork too lol, like letting a ranged character kite the Doom instead of trying to facetank if you can't (or IUD + Dodge hat lol). If you are actually using teamwork, than you A) have a team and B) have tools your team can use, so use them building your toon as an off-tank to add another tool to your team's toolbox is pretty cool, and probably blocks OS from your toons - however were any of them using OS to start?

Well, even stuff as simple as "try to keep a mob between you and the angry reaper while you/your party hit it with CC/AoE/strikethrough or you wait for cooldowns etc" can help a ton. A lot of melees can build for CC (like Fury T4 if no dc's) but yeah, it's definitely a steeper learning curve.

I think starting out being bad is fine? Nothing wrong with that, just means you have stuff to learn. You're bad? Alright, how can we help you get better? Build your static buddies up lol, so they can also off-tank the Dooms and not just you.

[Marshal_Lannes]

I wish the forums would move away from the mentality of "if it doesn't work in R10 then it doesn't work". Making an R10 barbarian face tank is a far different experience than making a viable reaper melee you'll have fun with in 99% of game content. Very often people who make claims that the only thing which matters is how a build performs at R10 forget that playing exclusively in R10 isn't the normal game experience for the vast majority of the DDO population. Further, as Spartan points out, rare would be the example where a player decides to choose a barbarian and then leap right up to R10. There are months (maybe years) of gameplay where a player runs their character, does R1s through heroics, maybe joins R4s in epics, and runs some raids that are done on EH or R1. Maybe they join an R8+ group, but that group already has an experienced tank for Doom reapers and no one expects them to tackle a Doom face first. All along this journey, the player is experiencing the many benefits of wearing medium armor on a barbarian in OS - and it's not only 10% more HPs. There are a lot more HPs in the entire OS tree than in either of the other two trees. Having hundreds (maybe more) of additional HPs provide major benefits against the 99.999% of the enemies and traps you face that aren't Doom reapers.

And here is the thing, we can disagree over what is important and what isn't. The issue is these blanket statements where an entire tree is thrown away in a sentence because it's a few % points less of uncanny dodge. Then other people start throwing quotes around like OS isn't viable. And it trickles down and becomes part of Forum DDO lore. In any event, while useful, this discussion is deep into the weeds of character building and goes to the original point of the post where these HP bonuses are tied into byzantine intricacies that many players and probably all new players will be completely oblivious. I would have preferred a simplification generalized standard in the implementation. Although, no doubt, DDO has enhanced its reputation as a deep character building game with these additions.

[Bjond]

Medium on a Barb means no MRR cap which helps a bit esp w/r/t Horrid Wilting? And a lil more PRR and MP. And you can get to like 20% Dodge which isn't horrible next to like 27% of Light (9% reduction or 30% with IUD?).

Medium permits lots of MRR, but it's pretty hard getting MRR over 120~130 without ugly sacrifices. If you're not wearing a shield, you won't get the 2x bonus to boost MRR high enough to be noticeably better than Light.

Personally, after running the numbers and seeing how futile it would be without spell absorb, I decided to just die when wilted. I don't like swapping gear (especially not tactically) and it's typically not even one death per life.

survive one Doom hit and get healed before the second

I'm building to tank a Doom with zero heals (at least for 20s), which is usually enough. More often than not, groups don't have a healer and don't have a tank. It's all casters & ranged. Most puggies are fine healing now and then, but having a player that likes to focus more on heals than dps/cc/etc is the difference between R8 & R10 for me.

I think melee is mostly fine

Outside R6+, I'd definitely agree. Once you've got the one~two hit deaths covered it becomes a matter of recovering the lost HP or doing odd things to hugely extend TTK.

SSG designed reaper to badly want a healer for melee. That's the entire reason for the self-heal penalty. The population responded (as expected) with "lets get some healers" but when they discovered there wasn't a vast pool of healers languishing away, that quickly became "let's get rid of melee". It's not overt malice. It's pure convenience.

SSG failed to consider tank/healer scarcity. Based on rough healer/tank:dps ratios, leveling a healer or tank is about 20x less fun than a DPS. There are two general ways to fix this:

1. D&D style: turn every melee into a tank and every healer into a DPS.
2. MMO/trinity style: make it impossible for ranged+casters to play without tank+healer

IMHO, every melee should naturally be a tank. That's how it is in D&D. The trinity is an MMO-thing. It doesn't exist in D&D. And, healers should be able to DPS. A D&D cleric is a powerful DPS class. DDO is chasing the MMO trinity so hard it's loosing sight of it's D&D roots.

Table-top D&D has itself pulled off non-trinity play successfully for decades. Pretty sure SSG will do nothing. If by some miracle, they do anything, it would be dumb (but easy to code) & pro-trinity; eg. all mobs reflect 10xSkull% of spellpower/rangedpower based damage when you have agro. They're very much more MMO than D&D in mindset.

None of your R8+ melee tank/DPS toons skipped having a T5 [..] were any of them using OS?

Yep, both my current/pre-U57 melee had T5s and lucked into getting 25% and are thus OK in U57. Both are high-dodge D.Roll builds. The first one was highly speculative. I was not sure it would work even for R4. Was a very nice surprise to find out how tanky it was.

U57 killed a couple planned builds (one used OS) because not enough AP to buy 25%. Post-U57 melee will all have a 25% HP enhance: T5 or 3 Bard / 3 Fighter. I thought it killed my planned caster druid heal+tank, but I might have found a way around it (druids are riddled with silly restrictions on their 25%).

You're bad? Alright, how can we help you get better?

I was speaking of what I hear melee talk about (new to R6+). I often get "how are you living?" questions. They get very seriously demoralized when I talk about how I build. Maybe 1 in 4 get determined to do similar builds. Most kinda sigh with "ugh, that's not for me".

It's OK that everyone has different tastes, but I very seriously dislike that the game artificially reduces potential groupies with what is seen as severe build burdens. MMOs are much more fun with a nice deep vat of happy squealing puglets.

I wish the forums would move away from the mentality of "if it doesn't work in R10 then it doesn't work"

IMHO, it goes deeper than forums. It's basic human nature. People want simple choices. "What's the best class?" "What's the best weapon?" If the square answer isn't round enough, the hammer of willful ignorance pegs it down anyway.

these HP bonuses are tied into byzantine intricacies that many players and probably all new players will be completely oblivious. I would have preferred a simplification generalized standard in the implementation.

LOL, YES! No one liked the T5 method. The Lamannia HP thread was soundly lambasted. I'm fine with squirrelly, but even I hate the T5 approach. It killed TONS of fun builds. ; ;