STOP trying to BALANCE all the classes/trees

[Buddha5440]

You are making this game WAAAAAYYYY too homogeneous.

ALL classes SHOULD be different.

They should not ALL be able to self-heal/deal damage/heal others/avoid(disregard) traps/CC/buff/etc/etc/etc....

This game has been made into a Min/Max game (ie. an MMOPG) instead of the MMORPG game it is supposed to be.

Stop BALANCING the classes/trees and make them specialized as they are supposed to be.

[droid327]

Agree classes are getting homogenized. Disagree the solution is to condemn some classes to being officially flavor builds. You can achieve both diversity and balance

I think the problem is that quests themselves are too homogenous. They favor a specific playstyle, and balance changes have been migrating everyone towards optimization for that playstyle, or nerfing away from it

If quests and game mechanics started rewarding different builds' playstyles more evenly then you'd see balance changes moving towards multiple maxima

[Bjond]

Agree classes are getting homogenized

Heh? What recent change (exactly) are you referring to? All they did was streamline some procs and hack up EDF and staple the leftover chunks onto various T5s.

make them specialized

Oh, wow .. a chance to wheel out my favorite RAH quote: "SPECIALIZATION IS FOR INSECTS!"

[KoobTheProud]

Agree classes are getting homogenized. Disagree the solution is to condemn some classes to being officially flavor builds. You can achieve both diversity and balance

I think the problem is that quests themselves are too homogenous. They favor a specific playstyle, and balance changes have been migrating everyone towards optimization for that playstyle, or nerfing away from it

If quests and game mechanics started rewarding different builds' playstyles more evenly then you'd see balance changes moving towards multiple maxima

The biggest change over the last 7 years has been the continual movement towards an AoE meta. When the main challenge element in a meta is packs of creatures then the meta will evolve towards killing packs of creatures.

[Bagel99]

The biggest change over the last 7 years has been the continual movement towards an AoE meta. When the main challenge element in a meta is packs of creatures then the meta will evolve towards killing packs of creatures.

The irony, packs of enemies and meta .... "meta"-magics .... big boom ... no more pack of enemies? Coincidence?! All things aside though, even though AOE clears content faster and is fun i look forward most to those quests where the big bad is ... big and bad! Like Dragons! Tons of Hp and tons of damage coming at me, sometimes having that all out punisher style melee build or Deepwood stalker Hunts end build ... its like warm apple pie!

I do believe that they should be (they as in classes) unique and strong, your a hero! No matter what you should feel like one, sometimes ya have to work for it but you have the tools, some trees had their tools broken and scraps handed back. Im alittle bias but Warpriest is one such tree, i feel SSG is afraid to make it too good as a melee, or good in general. Why play a fighter if X works or a Pali if X heals more or ... so on and so forth. The irony in that is inquisitive has been the leveling backbone of heroics for the past while, substituted out with a caster when bored of walking around like a goofball.

[Maldorin]

You are making this game WAAAAAYYYY too homogeneous.

ALL classes SHOULD be different.

They should not ALL be able to self-heal/deal damage/heal others/avoid(disregard) traps/CC/buff/etc/etc/etc....

This game has been made into a Min/Max game (ie. an MMOPG) instead of the MMORPG game it is supposed to be.

Stop BALANCING the classes/trees and make them specialized as they are supposed to be.

Agreed. This has been a trend for a while now. After returning from a break I really notice how bland everything is now, how homogeneous and less build diversity than ever.

[Buddha5440]

Agree classes are getting homogenized. Disagree the solution is to condemn some classes to being officially flavor builds. You can achieve both diversity and balance

I think the problem is that quests themselves are too homogenous. They favor a specific playstyle, and balance changes have been migrating everyone towards optimization for that playstyle, or nerfing away from it

If quests and game mechanics started rewarding different builds' playstyles more evenly then you'd see balance changes moving towards multiple maxima

A CLASS should never be a f'lavor build', those should be builds by people trying to re-create an old character from PnP days. However; allowing basically all classes to be able to self-heal, DPS, tank (semi), CC, etc., is just wrong. They are taking away the "R" in MMORPG. With the exception of trap disarming (limitedd to rogues and artis), pretty much everything else can be done by any class.

[jackatthekilns]

Without disagreeing with your assertion that classes are too homogeneous, I'm curious how this affects you gameplay. In other words, what can't you do that you want to do because of these changes? I guess I just don't understand how, to take a recent example, fighters getting second wind changes my gameplay experience. I admit I never play fighters, so this specific example may be a bad one. I usually play solo, which for better or worse is the way I both prefer to play and what I am able to do because of my schedule and home situation. I have a family and I find it much more convenient to quit in the middle of a quest when I need to if others aren't relying on me to heal them. When I do play with others, it is to meet challenges that I can't do alone, learn more about the game, and have fun chatting and telling stories (a lot lot PnP sessions)

I still feel like the classes play very differently. I get that impression because I hate playing some of them and absolutely love others.

I admit I may be missing something important in all of this.

P.S. I completely agree with on poster above who said that quests are too homogenous. That has much more impact on my enjoyment of the game, personally.

[droid327]

A CLASS should never be a f'lavor build', those should be builds by people trying to re-create an old character from PnP days. However; allowing basically all classes to be able to self-heal, DPS, tank (semi), CC, etc., is just wrong. They are taking away the "R" in MMORPG. With the exception of trap disarming (limitedd to rogues and artis), pretty much everything else can be done by any class.

That's not the "role" that Role Playing Game refers to. Pretty much no one RPs in DDO, but that isnt anything to do with game mechanics.

Every class needs to be able to DPS, that's just what the game is. Every class should be solo viable too, so I'm OK with some minimal sources of self-heal being ubiquitous. But there's still plenty of axes of variation within that rolespace that could be explored, but arent.

[jackatthekilns]

That's not the "role" that Role Playing Game refers to. .

Very good point. role-playing refers to playing a character or persona, not filling a role in a party.

[Monkey_Archer]

Balance does not mean equalization.

A kilogram of feathers weighs the same as a kilogram of steel (and is therefore balanced), but serve entirely different purposes. You wouldn't want the bridge you're driving over to be made of feathers for example

Similarly, in games, a healer can be balanced with a dps build even if they do completely different things and are not equal in anything.


If fact, equalization of classes actually makes balancing the game more difficult, because it leads to strictly superior or inferior builds, rather than unique advantages and disadvantages.

[glassesjr]

I would prefer they fix bugs that have been in the game for more than a decade, but you know priorities and all that.

[Fisto_Mk_I]

A kilogram of feathers weighs the same as a kilogram of steel (and is therefore balanced)

1kg of feathers weight less than 1kg of steel... usual. Many forget the Archimedean force if the weighting is not done in full vacuum. Just for great justice...

Sorry for derailing.

[ivorycoaster]

The biggest change over the last 7 years has been the continual movement towards an AoE meta. When the main challenge element in a meta is packs of creatures then the meta will evolve towards killing packs of creatures.

Also the automatic immunity strip on an alch/sorc/druid, while no other caster gets any strip (besides if they are tiefling, and that strip has always felt AWFUL) is a bit thing in the meta. Actually it is arguably the greatest factor. Noone plays Wizard unless undead, which leaves you with a major heal from others disadvantage, or EK, which has no immunity strip and therefor relegated to either maximizing one spellpower type and having 1/3 of raid bosses be immune, preying for a meta immunity stripper, or spreading it out amongst a bunch of different types and losing a very significant amount of potential power.

DC Sorc = better than DC Wizard. DPS Caster sorc = far better than DPS Caster wizard.

[Monkey_Archer]

Also the automatic immunity strip on an alch/sorc/druid, while no other caster gets any strip (besides if they are tiefling, and that strip has always felt AWFUL) is a bit thing in the meta. Actually it is arguably the greatest factor. Noone plays Wizard unless undead, which leaves you with a major heal from others disadvantage, or EK, which has no immunity strip and therefor relegated to either maximizing one spellpower type and having 1/3 of raid bosses be immune, preying for a meta immunity stripper, or spreading it out amongst a bunch of different types and losing a very significant amount of potential power.

DC Sorc = better than DC Wizard. DPS Caster sorc = far better than DPS Caster wizard.

Immunity stripping rewards one dimensional min/max builds in a game that already rewards min/maxing. Its a win more button and lazy development.

IMO, the only immunity stripping that should exists are the awaken elemental weakness in T5 of the savant trees.

[Raithe]

Very good point. role-playing refers to playing a character or persona, not filling a role in a party.

Filling a role in a party is part of the persona role to which you refer, which is why characters have classes in Dungeons & Dragons. In fact, the class of a character is supposed to be the attribute that steers the decision-making process for that character the most, more than alignment and definitely more than race.

I disagree with the OP. I have been playing characters that self-heal, use melee attack, use range attack, and cast magic spells from the very beginning of DDO. All of my characters do all of that, they just do it in differing quantities in each category. And D&D has never had tanks - all characters are subject to sudden and immediate death. The focus of the game of D&D is on the group - it is about the story of the interactions and survival of the group.

In a more practical argument, the current game is such that people need to be able to single or dual box most content by themselves. If you can't handle the functions of a group with 1 or 2 characters, people are going to just stop playing. You should be somewhat glad they can handle the functions of a group.

[ivorycoaster]

Immunity stripping rewards one dimensional min/max builds in a game that already rewards min/maxing. Its a win more button and lazy development.

IMO, the only immunity stripping that should exists are the awaken elemental weakness in T5 of the savant trees.

I would like to see it more as a potential thing from debuffers, or a single target thing. "Quench" for instance is a completely reasonable immunity stripper. As you mentioned, Awaken Elemental Weakness is reasonable. Henshin Monk elemental vulnerability attacks.. Also reasonable. Other sources have potential, such as maybe filigrees or certain items with a single target immunity strip at 20/day or something.

There is the conversation that immunity itself is just silly, especially at the level at which it is rampant, and rather that it should be based on a vulnerability scale ranging from 0 to 100+. I doubt there will be any interest from the devs in revamping the entire structure of immunity in the game as it stands, but regardless, it would be a much better system.

In DDO, min maxing should be encouraged, but not easy buttoned. The point as I understand it is to min max what you're good at, and let other party members fill in the gaps.

[Enoach]

In my opinion the best way to balance out all builds (in a multi-class environment this isn't class specific)

Stop homogenizing Quests
We don't need all quests completable by "Hulk Smash" tactics. Make parties think, optional completion paths (don't directly reward one over the other)
Make skills matter in quests. Not saying a skill has to be available to complete (see my optional completion paths comment)

[droid327]

IMO, the only immunity stripping that should exists are the awaken elemental weakness in T5 of the savant trees.

Strips should only be given to classes who are actively discouraged from using multiple elements:

- Druids, since their Elemental form penalizes the opposite element
- Artis, since they really only have one functional element if they're a pure caster build

And I can maybe justify giving it to Sorcs just because they're supposed to be the masters of elements - even though you could have a viable (if weaker) second element option

Everyone else *can* use a second element, so they should be expected to invest in some kind of backup for immunes.

[archerforever]

I would like to see dungeons/adventure packs with really strong elite monsters (or even a general rework of mobs and/or champions on standard/Reaper difficulty).
The idea consist to add big elite monsters with the health of x10 classic mobs maybe more to have an utility of necro/assassin builds and single dps builds overall.
Maybe with some specific skills like :
- The monster is immune to physical damages but takes multiplied damage from magic damage
- The monster is immune to magical damages but takes multiplied damage from physical damage
- The monster can only be killed with positive OR negative OR fire OR cold OR electric OR sonic OR Acide Or poison Or force ... spells (no elemental resistance strip avaible)
- Dual champions = x2 mobs that have to be killed TOGETHER (1 or 2sec delay) or revive indefinitly
- ect...

Lot of options to make the game more attractive, challenging and bring back utility for all no AOE builds.

We can imagine that as an option on the quest window, you choose the difficulty (elite/ reaper ect) and this additional option : "add ultra elite monsters" yes or no and if you choose yes, you have +10%/15%/20% chance (or more) to get named items from chests.