Filigree set should give 1 imbue dice per 1-2 epic level - not this complete nerf!

[gravisrs]

Gosh my char just lost half of it's elemental damage.

You guys literally nerfed most of Hunt or Be Hunted/old ToEE crafted weapons builds (elemental vulnerability), U53 wasn't that old.

[Firebreed]

1 dice per 2 epic levels is absurd.

What I agree with is that all affected filigree sets should give 2 dice, not 1.

[Sqrlmonger]

1 dice per 2 epic levels is absurd.

What I agree with is that all affected filigree sets should give 2 dice, not 1.

How much damage per hit do you imagine these dice are adding?

For a solid melee/ranged build at cap you're talking about ~25 damage per die when scaling 200% at 300 MP/RP.

That doesn't really strike me as anything "absurd" when characters are running around slapping stuff for 6 digits.

[droid327]

How much damage per hit do you imagine these dice are adding?

For a solid melee/ranged build at cap you're talking about ~25 damage per die when scaling 200% at 300 MP/RP.

That doesn't really strike me as anything "absurd" when characters are running around slapping stuff for 6 digits.

At those values, you're talking 7d8 total damage per 2 epic levels, so 42d8 at 32...and you could get 2 or 3 sets stacked. 126d8 damage per hit is is far from trivial

[Fauxknight]

The nerf is only for those scaling small imbues off of MP/RP, for those using SP scaling imbues or larger dice then the +2 scaling dice is generally static or a gain over the normal 16 static dice.

16d6 static dice = 56 average damage
+2 1d8 100% SP scaling (1100 SP) = 108 (+92%)
+2 1d6 200% MP Scaling (250 MP) = 42 (-25%)
+2 1d8 200% MP Scaling (250 MP) = 54 (-4%)

If you are running smaller dice, lower scaling, or lower stats then you don't gain as much, but at decent numbers the number of bonus dice vs the old static dice seems like a mostly fair middle ground.



The real sore point should be the scion feats, it's a straight up loss even for those using SP scaling imbues and a MP/RP imbue user is forced to take the new MP/RP scaling dice instead of the old SP scaling dice.

[Sqrlmonger]

At those values, you're talking 7d8 total damage per 2 epic levels, so 42d8 at 32...and you could get 2 or 3 sets stacked. 126d8 damage per hit is is far from trivial

First, I said it wasn't absurd, not that it was trivial. So lets not move the goal posts.

Second, I assume you're talking about the average of 7d8 of post 200% scaling & post ~300 MP/RP damage when you say 126d8? It's odd and confusing to me to refer to this in dice form after the scaling, it kind of implies that scaling is going to hit on top of the 126d8 when it actually already includes it. But I digress.

Anyways, adding 567 average damage to attacks at the cost of 8 filigrees minimum is pretty reasonable. Consider that most of these are 3 and 4 piece sets with little to do with melee/ranged builds and just how much work the MP/RP is doing in this initial calculation and that a good chunk of it comes from proper filigree selection, which is made substantially harder by trying to use these sets. I would estimate you're going to lose like 10% of that 567 damage right off the top from loss of MP/RP and then when you factor in how much damage you lost on your base melee/ranged from that on top of the reduced DS damage you're missing, I would suspect you are actually coming out fairly negative on the overall exchange. The exception, of course, is when you're not actually doing good damage to start with in which case this might be a step up, but again, not an absurd one.

One of the problems is that these filigree set bonuses are not great for melee/ranged builds

Here is the entire menu:
Set Name [# needed for imbue bonus] (list of filigree options)
The Beast's Mantle [4] (Con, Melee, Ranged, Rage, Strength)
Electrocution [3] (Air Ele Prot, Con, Elec Absorb, Elec SP, Fort, MRR, PRR)
The Long Shadow [3] (Attk/Dmg, Cha, Dex, Int, Melee, Ranged, Reflex, Stealth)
Snake Bite [3] (Attk/Dmg, Con, Fort, Poison Attack, Poison Prot)
The Wreath of Flame [4] (Con, Fire Absorb, Fire SP, Fort, Melee, Ranged)
Frozen Wanderer [4] (ASF, Cha, Cold Absorb, Cold SP, Int, PRR, Wis)
Reverberation [2] (Cha, PRR, Reflex, Sonic Absorb, Sonic SP)

Beasts and Long Shadow are probably the best, but each is kind of leaned toward melee or ranged and not inspiring for the other to take considering the other options available. So getting 3 of these would be pretty tough to do. The rest are really more for casters and/or meme/theme builds.

Fundamentally the problem with this damage is that it doesn't multiply in a crit in any way and so it can never really compete with high end damage builds. I would argue that for DPS spec'd ranged builds just the 15 ranged power alone from the 3-set bonus of crackshot negotiator would be comparable to the 567 damage gained from combination of all 3 of the 3 and 4-set imbue bonuses. Not only does RP scale their sneak attack and weapon damage, it scales the critical hits as well. So to does DS which would again be another bonus you are completely missing out on with these sets.

OK - to be fair Long shadow does offer a 5 MP/RP bonus for its 2-set bonus, but otherwise you are not getting ANY ranged power, melee power, or DS from your set bonuses if you go down this route which means conservatively you're missing out on 20 RP and 10% DS which is quite a big deal in these builds.

It seems to me all this sort of change would really do is give builds that are thematic but otherwise non-competitive an opportunity to access moderate damage in spite of sub-optimal DPS choices made for thematic reasons. And it would do something similar for newer players who aren't being thematic but are still learning.

PS - It's certainly possible there is something about these imbue I don't understand properly, but if they are just stand alone non-crit damage it seems to me like the opportunity cost of taking these procs is FAR higher than 1 or 2 imbue dice can compensate for. To be clear I don't really care of they are changed, I was just responding the notion it would be absurd if they were. I don't see that at all.

[Fisto_Mk_I]

Majority non-caster imbue don't scaling with 200% MP/RP but with 100% only. Only KoTC imbue scaled with 200%. Inquisitive scaled with 150% irk.

[droid327]

Majority non-caster imbue don't scaling with 200% MP/RP but with 100% only. Only KoTC imbue scaled with 200%. Inquisitive scaled with 150% irk.

I thought inqui ended up 1d10/200%?

[Sqrlmonger]

I thought inqui ended up 1d10/200%?

This is essentially correct.

There is some situational difference if you take Optimist over Jaded/Vigilante that can cause it be d6's but if you build properly it is d10s at 200%.