Update 57 Official Release Notes

[droid327]

Not a sarcastic question - can anyone tell me the purpose of this change, what brought it on, and what this really will mean for end game?
Will it help with lag? Is it a new D&D rule book thing?

Thanks

Imbue changes - streamlining the code to make it easier to manage and balance all the current imbue-like abilities under one system. This is more of a change for the dev's benefit than ours
HP changes - trying to make melee more survivable to balance against ranged and caster, without the unpopular mechanic of EDF

For endgame? Super-high-HP turtle tanks will lose HP. Everyone else...probably a sideways move. Some may stand to be buffed. Imbues not likely to matter a whole lot either way; they're not really strong enough to warrant changing your build if you arent already an imbue-focused build like Inqui or EK - and if you are, then this is still mostly a sideways move because the math comes out pretty similar to pre-patch numbers unless you invest significantly in new sources of imbue die, and you're not likely to do that since the opportunity cost is usually too high.

[VinoeWhines]

Bottom line for those that don't read entry notes that devs post, that explain why. Go back and read original 1st post.

Reasons:
1. Unify calculations of different elemental/alignment damages(Fire, Acid, ...) to one subset of damage, so it sorts faster and less random added calculations, especially in raids. So they can build on that foundation forward, same excuse for Epic Destinies.
2. Buff some HP for melees.

HP Buff: This was not well studied or projected because not all take T5's in split classes, also some T5 choices(the tied Competence bonus to) are not used by all(example not all Assassin's wear light armor but to get bonus you have to waste 3pts in it to get HP bonus; completely bad logic, instead this should of gone in "Measure the Foe, Assassinate, Knife Specialization or even Deadly Strikes").

Would of been better off going on the Enhancement Cores, like Cores 3 and/or T4's if not using Core 3's They should of put them at a lower tier(T4 or even T3)and not handcuff to Tier 5's. Remember this was free and percentage was auto granted for every fighting feat before.



What needs to be done is, when making a change in the game system, they should pool an inquiry as to what the proposed change is:

Stage 1 (conceptual change) Create a form for people to enter their issue/dice/DC's, etc. as to how that effects the character ecosystem.
Stage 2 (proposed changes) Lay out first draft of information gathered from forms and producers concepts.
Stage 3 (repurpose entry forms) Allow players to some extent revisit/espouse balance of changes in a balanced way.
Stage 4 (Lamania the implementations) Create 3 previews of changes taken into effect, with corrections to bugs and proof of concepts.
Stage 5 (Go Live) Monitor/Report for exploits, unbalancing results.

They could categorize, like when they did the Epic Destiny pass, with group classes; Melee, Range, Caster to better see metrics to proposed changes and reworks so the information can be compartmentalized and streamlined faster, especially with lined responses of players putting their stats/DC's/Dice/MP/RP/SP to pooled info.

[MasterAO]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverw..._the_Underdark

You're using a freaking DnD video game to try and argue a point about the actual tabletop game. Your argument is completely invalid.

Let me role this back even further: you do know DnD is a tabletop RPG, right? When someone makes a video game of the tabletop game, the video game's rules do not apply.

This is from the 3ed Epic Level Handbook, which I believe is used for the actual tabletop game.

NO LIMITS
Although most of the tables in this book only snow information up to a certain level (often 30th), that level is by no means
the limit of a character’s advancement. Because of space limitations, we generally show advancement only ten levels
beyond what’s given in the Player’s Handbook. Once you’ve read this chapter, you should know how to calculate the
proper values for levels beyond those shown on the tables.
You can generally assume that any patterns on a particular table continue infinitely.

[VinoeWhines]

Light Armor Mastery: Gain 2/4/6 to the Maximum Dexterity Bonus of light armor and gain 2/4/6 Physical Resistance Rating.


Change that to:

Armor Mastery: Gain 2/4/6 to Max Dexterity Bonus of light armor or 2/4/6% quality dodge bonus to cloth armor.
Gain 2/4/6 Physical (& Magical?) Resistance Rating.

[LightBear]

So, some enhancement tries get more hp at tier 5 while others of the same class do not get that?

If so, you can expect a great reduction build diversity.

[slarden]

Not a sarcastic question - can anyone tell me the purpose of this change, what brought it on, and what this really will mean for end game?
Will it help with lag? Is it a new D&D rule book thing?

Thanks

So, some enhancement tries get more hp at tier 5 while others of the same class do not get that?

If so, you can expect a great reduction build diversity.

So two rounds of questions around why the nerf to Animal domain and FvS Stout of Heart and how this negatively affects healers, a big FU to us, thanks.

And I will second and third the comment on why are these changes are even happening. No one asked for them. And until you fix all the stuff that is broken, that people actually care about, there is NO NEED TO SHAKE THINGS UP.

Stuff this where the sun doesn't shine.

In terms of not being asked for, we've had a few people on the forums posting asking for melee buffs and caster nerfs for quite some time. These threads get bumped usually every week so everyone on the forums should have seen those by now many times. Based on history, it's likely these posts and complaints about caster/melee balance will continue even with this nice melee buff.

The specific nerf to animal domain and stout of heart is likely due to these originally meant for melee builds but now used by mostly by casters. If your fvs or cleric takes 4 melee feats (shield, twf, thf, shf) you get those hp back so aren't down any hp at all. A pure healer can definitely fit in the shield feats if building for survivability and arguably if a caster wants those hp they can figure it out too.

As someone that plays a mix of casters, melee and less so ranged I really like these changes. It'a a nice boost to my melees and epic defensive fighting limits was one of the worst things ever for raids and grouping in general.

As it was intended to be a melee buff and replacement to EDF the tier 5 of melee trees were specifically targeted although SSG can't account for every creative build out there.

The imbue thing I am less familiar with other than knowing ES warlock gets less light damage unless they take feats, filigree, epic destiny options, etc. to make up for the loss, but at end game it's a tiny % of the total.

[Axcarth]

... Based on history, it's likely these posts and complaints about caster/melee balance will continue even with this nice melee buff.
...

Sorry, what nice melee buff are we talking about? Melees are asking for defense buffs (revamp to AC, PRR, dodge, etc). Do you see any of those here? I can see non.

Do not misread, I'm totally signed for these update. I'm excited to explore imbue's design and play some new options there. I like the improves/corrections that have been addressed, but let's not say melees are getting nice buffs, please.

[Baahb3]

The specific nerf to animal domain and stout of heart is likely due to these originally meant for melee builds but now used by mostly by casters. If your fvs or cleric takes 4 melee feats (shield, twf, thf, shf) you get those hp back so aren't down any hp at all. A pure healer can definitely fit in the shield feats if building for survivability and arguably if a caster wants those hp they can figure it out too.

As someone that plays a mix of casters, melee and less so ranged I really like these changes. It'a a nice boost to my melees and epic defensive fighting limits was one of the worst things ever for raids and grouping in general.

I agree that getting rid of EDF is good.

However, I disagree with your premise on the ability or even the want to take melee feats on my healer. I should not get nerfed just so some other build doesn't double dip on HP bonuses. I shouldn't have to figure it out so to speak to fit in 4 melee feats just to get back to what I had before.

There were several ways to account for this.
--If you have a melee feat, Animal and Stout are 4 per level. If none, remains 10
--As stated by others, put the same HP bonus in T5 of Beacon or Radiant, or even 18 Core or Capstone

Yet they took the FU path to this.

As for feats - (11): Quicken, Empower Heal, Max, Enlarge, Mental Toughness x3, Shield Deflection, Toughness, Epic Toughness

That leaves 1 feat that I could swap out without making what I feel are nerfs to my purpose as a healer. Get rid of Toughness/E.Toughness = wash of HP if I use that one open to get 3 melee feats. Loose M.Toughness? I like the extra SP and crit chance, I will not lose those.

I just don't understand the design decision around nerfing these two abilities. AND NONE WAS GIVEN. That is what makes me the most angry. I mean healers were not running EDF anyway, so why kick them when they are not part of the problem? And with no thought process from them, the only conclusion I can think of is that they looked at Hardcore, AN EVENT for all intensive purpose, and said that they were too strong for that SPECIFIC event, and thus decided to nerf them there and as a byproduct we get hit on regular servers.

[LightBear]

Then all they had to do is remove the casting range limitation to touch when in Epic Defensive Fighting and all would have been fine again.

[Aelonwy]

And with no thought process from them, the only conclusion I can think of is that they looked at Hardcore, AN EVENT for all intensive purpose, and said that they were too strong for that SPECIFIC event, and thus decided to nerf them there and as a byproduct we get hit on regular servers.

A lot of the class/enhancement nerfs this year have without a doubt centered around this^.

[adamkatt]

all these hp changes and warlock inst even mentioned

[carsonfball]

NWN's 2nd Expansion Hordes of the Underdark, released in December 2003, allowed for character level 40.

Whatever else is true your comment about DnD and level 40 is false and has been so for decades now.

The old "Gold Box" AD&D 2nd Edition game "Pools of Darkness" from 1991 also went to 40. However, both NWN and Pools of Darkness were video games. Granted, they were both much more heavily based on the actual PnP rules than DDO, but it's still something to keep in mind. Also, at least in 2nd Edition, the leveling charts said something like progress continues in the same pattern allowing for unlimited levels - at least in theory. I can't remember if 3rd/3.5 had a hard cap or not.

[Gordo]

at rough guess i would say it is to do with the level cap eventually reaching 40 (like the epic destiny changes). I dare say there will be other things that get changed over the coming months/years until level 40 arrives.

Stoner81.

tyvm

[droid327]

So, some enhancement tries get more hp at tier 5 while others of the same class do not get that?

If so, you can expect a great reduction build diversity.

The ones that got less than the full 25% were hybrid classes like Bard or Arti (which got 20) or full on caster classes like EK (which got 15)

I think the idea to make pure melees the beefiest is a good one

Then all they had to do is remove the casting range limitation to touch when in Epic Defensive Fighting and all would have been fine again.

The whole point of EDF is to give melees the benefit, since they're taking more damage, and not just make ranged and caster equally tanky. The casting range limitation was the poison pill meant to make it useless for pure ranged nukers while still letting EKs cast in melee range.

A lot of the class/enhancement nerfs this year have without a doubt centered around this^.

Yeah...if they really arent balancing for Hardcore like they say they're not, then we should see (and accept) more imbalance in HC than we actually do, simply because its a fundamentally different playstyle than SC

If HC looks balanced, then that necessarily means something on SC is suffering for it. You simply cant have it 100% both ways.

[Abilbo]

Not a sarcastic question - can anyone tell me the purpose of this change, what brought it on, and what this really will mean for end game?


Thanks

I played on Lamania, and the imbue system will be better for multiclass players, than it will be for singleclass builds. Any Enhancement tree, or feat/enhancement/ED source that gives imbue die will all stack together. Play a Alchemist thrower, for example, and put points into the Inquisitive tree, about 12-20 depending on how high you want to invest, will give you several Die that all stack, and all will enhance the imbue of your poison attacks. To build for imbue, you are going to sacrifice other things, and on Elite or R1 content, you will notice that its good DPS. At end game, getting about 30 Imbue Die, (not as high as you can get) I was getting about 8K damage every hit with a alchemist thrower build. What it will mean for end game? not much. Imbue's don't crit. You will get decent sustained DPS, but NO BURST DPS to speak of. Try a push raid or High Reaper content, and you will see its not nearly as strong as a High Ranged/Melee Power DPS characeter.

As far as the HP buffs go, what I liked most about this, was that on Lamania, many of the hit point bonus's were "multiselector" options, and they appear to have changed them to just "in addition to" so characters, should see an increase to over all health.

You will see end game characters really benefiting from the new "feat" bumps to HP. I have an end game shooter build, with 95% DS, and about 280 RP standing on the ship. I built my character using a few extra fighter levels, meaning I lost a couple of Sneak Attack Die, but picked up all 4 SWF feats. Tired of dying in High Reaper to one shots.

[Oxarhamar]

snip~ The ones that got less than the full 25% were hybrid classes like Bard or Arti (which got 20) or full on caster classes like EK (which got 15)

I think the idea to make pure melees the beefiest is a good one ys.

This is one of the main problems with hybrid class

A player who wants to play a Melee Artifcer suffers because of it they r3ally should impliment some kind of selector to set your charicter as melee ranged or caster for full benifits of those while limiting others then a selector for hybrid that gives a bit of both but not all

Being limited in melee because Artifcer can cast is silly if a player is playing a melee Artifcer

[Arjen]

I'm thinking it's time to step away from the game for a bit.

Genuinely asking, why? This update is seems more housekeeping and system consolidation than anything. HP theorycrafting has us generally ahead (even if we're now forced to spend some AP in ways that are not optimal).

[Strider1963]

I played on Lamania, and the imbue system will be better for multiclass players, than it will be for singleclass builds. Any Enhancement tree, or feat/enhancement/ED source that gives imbue die will all stack together. Play a Alchemist thrower, for example, and put points into the Inquisitive tree, about 12-20 depending on how high you want to invest, will give you several Die that all stack, and all will enhance the imbue of your poison attacks. To build for imbue, you are going to sacrifice other things, and on Elite or R1 content, you will notice that its good DPS. At end game, getting about 30 Imbue Die, (not as high as you can get) I was getting about 8K damage every hit with a alchemist thrower build. What it will mean for end game? not much. Imbue's don't crit. You will get decent sustained DPS, but NO BURST DPS to speak of. Try a push raid or High Reaper content, and you will see its not nearly as strong as a High Ranged/Melee Power DPS characeter.

As far as the HP buffs go, what I liked most about this, was that on Lamania, many of the hit point bonus's were "multiselector" options, and they appear to have changed them to just "in addition to" so characters, should see an increase to over all health.

You will see end game characters really benefiting from the new "feat" bumps to HP. I have an end game shooter build, with 95% DS, and about 280 RP standing on the ship. I built my character using a few extra fighter levels, meaning I lost a couple of Sneak Attack Die, but picked up all 4 SWF feats. Tired of dying in High Reaper to one shots.

I didn't play on Lamania but I did read the notes there and I had the same impression that a pure melee dps build is not going to be as good as a multiclass. Too bad that now we're being penalized for being pure, its not supposed to be that way.

[Wizard1406]

all these hp changes and warlock inst even mentioned

Yep and the extra hp is in ES core6, so even with 1 other class level you can't get it -.-

I And with no thought process from them, the only conclusion I can think of is that they looked at Hardcore, AN EVENT for all intensive purpose, and said that they were too strong for that SPECIFIC event, and thus decided to nerf them there and as a byproduct we get hit on regular servers.

Yeah what next? Nerfing turn undead because it is "too good" in Night Revels? /s

I agree you should not balance around some event and seperate servers. Live servers didn't need cleric and fvs HP nerf.

[slarden]

Sorry, what nice melee buff are we talking about?

Hit points. Both my melees are gaining significant hp and ultimately hp is the best defense as it provides help against every type of damage attack. My warlock is gaining nothing and losing a little dps from the imbue changes, but not enough to notice. My favored soul is losing hp.

No complaints - the melee buffs I am getting more than offset what I am losing from my 2 casters so overall it's a win.

all these hp changes and warlock inst even mentioned

Warlock is the only class that didn't have their hp raised to 5E standards - I did notice it, but am not going to lose sleep or complain about it. The loss of dps is so minimal at end game it's definitely not going to move the needle much. Most warlock dps at end game comes from ED anyhow as Eld blast damage is terrible.

I agree that getting rid of EDF is good.

As for feats - (11): Quicken, Empower Heal, Max, Enlarge, Mental Toughness x3, Shield Deflection, Toughness, Epic Toughness

That leaves 1 feat that I could swap out without making what I feel are nerfs to my purpose as a healer. Get rid of Toughness/E.Toughness = wash of HP if I use that one open to get 3 melee feats. Loose M.Toughness? I like the extra SP and crit chance, I will not lose those.

I just don't understand the design decision around nerfing these two abilities. AND NONE WAS GIVEN. That is what makes me the most angry. I mean healers were not running EDF anyway, so why kick them when they are not part of the problem? And with no thought process from them, the only conclusion I can think of is that they looked at Hardcore, AN EVENT for all intensive purpose, and said that they were too strong for that SPECIFIC event, and thus decided to nerf them there and as a byproduct we get hit on regular servers.

It's just speculation but I don't think the cleric/fvs bonuses were ever meant for casters and this is effectively making the full bonus for melee divines which is likely what was intended all along. You are only showing 10 of 11 feats I assume the missing feat is empower.

Build trade-offs will always be there. Assuming a large shield, Shield Mastery is worth 52 hp and 5 prr, Improved Shield Mastery is worth 52 hp and 5 prr. Greater shield mastery is worth 52 hp and 5 prr and perfect shield mastery (epic destiny feat) is worth 52 hp and 5 prr. Everyone has to build the way they think is best.

I didn't ask for a nerf, but I suspected it was coming because the devs have historically reacted to the squeaky wheel nerf requests and people that exclusively play melee have been very squeaky - frequently bumping dead posts, etc.. Some of the concerns are legit and some do not make any sense to me at all. You can expect the demand for more melee buffs and more caster nerfs to begin as soon as this afternoon. If you don't agree with it you should respond to those posts instead of waiting until after the devs make changes.

The ones that got less than the full 25% were hybrid classes like Bard or Arti (which got 20) or full on caster classes like EK (which got 15)

I think the idea to make pure melees the beefiest is a good one

Agree, casting classes have other benefits besides hp. Full melee trees definitely deserve the small hp advantage they are getting.