Basic expiation of state of game today

[songswrath]

Basic expiation of state of game today. @SSG @Lynnabel @Torc

over the past year plus there been alot of trying to rebalance the game updates. The major flaw here is we have 5 dif games in one 1:heroic leveling 2: epic leveling 3: high reaper/end game questing 4: raiding 5: pushing raiding. What i am getting at here is no one build will work for all. the more you try to "rebalance"one part is completely flips a dif part of the game upside down.
stop caring about people that have solo r10 solo'ed this or that ect.. most of these builds are worthless in the other parts of the game as stated above. If players feel the need to do this let them have their cake. For a example try leveling up a raid tank and see how fun it is ><. this newest proposed update takes away alot of what makes ddo better than other mmo's the character builds options. all i see is a bunch of pigeonhole builds coming from this update. Even more so adding to the unbalance.
Right now melee's kick butt in heroic and low lvl reapers and painful to play in high end and some raids as you are beholden to someone healing you as you take damage there no safe spot and doing dps while kiting a mob as a melee. Throwers builds are ungodly o.p. in all steps of the game tho >< this really need looked into. Casters are also way out of balance 1 shooting mob packs even in r10. known player to even one shot dooms on r10. and now we going to add more damage. Thought we just had a major update(aka the stat squish) to tone down the power creep??

[CaptainSpacePony]

...we have 5 dif games in one 1:heroic leveling 2: epic leveling 3: high reaper/end game questing 4: raiding 5: pushing raiding.

I really like how you captured that part. (Pushing raiding is high reaper raiding btw).

I expect to have more to say in reflection to this thread after I more closely review the lam forums.

[songswrath]

I really like how you captured that part. (Pushing raiding is high reaper raiding btw).

I expect to have more to say in reflection to this thread after I more closely review the lam forums.

glad you clarified that. i forget most ppl dont understand push raiding cause it a place you will find zero to one op melee player like myself in this element. i labeled it thinking everyone understood push raiding is high reaper raids ty

[KoobTheProud]

You also left out the fact that in the first two categories you have newbies, casual players, experienced casuals, spikes, grinders and zergers. DDO looks like a very different game to each of those categories of players.

[songswrath]

You also left out the fact that in the first two categories you have newbies, casual players, experienced casuals, spikes, grinders and zergers. DDO looks like a very different game to each of those categories of players.

i feel that they fall into the heroic and epic leveling category as most of the time this is done on elite/r1. the norm difficulty group is such a small part of the over all player base that i just group with leveling group here in my post

[CaptainSpacePony]

You also left out the fact that in the first two categories you have newbies, casual players, experienced casuals, spikes, grinders and zergers. DDO looks like a very different game to each of those categories of players.

While true, I don't think that changes the OP, merely adds some depth to their point.

[Merrillman]

Basic expiation of state of game today. @SSG @Lynnabel @Torc

over the past year plus there been alot of trying to rebalance the game updates. The major flaw here is we have 5 dif games in one 1:heroic leveling 2: epic leveling 3: high reaper/end game questing 4: raiding 5: pushing raiding. What i am getting at here is no one build will work for all. the more you try to "rebalance"one part is completely flips a dif part of the game upside down.
stop caring about people that have solo r10 solo'ed this or that ect.. most of these builds are worthless in the other parts of the game as stated above. If players feel the need to do this let them have their cake. For a example try leveling up a raid tank and see how fun it is ><. this newest proposed update takes away alot of what makes ddo better than other mmo's the character builds options. all i see is a bunch of pigeonhole builds coming from this update. Even more so adding to the unbalance.
Right now melee's kick butt in heroic and low lvl reapers and painful to play in high end and some raids as you are beholden to someone healing you as you take damage there no safe spot and doing dps while kiting a mob as a melee. Throwers builds are ungodly o.p. in all steps of the game tho >< this really need looked into. Casters are also way out of balance 1 shooting mob packs even in r10. known player to even one shot dooms on r10. and now we going to add more damage. Thought we just had a major update(aka the stat squish) to tone down the power creep??

I don’t know where you or anyone else gets this OP anything for casters. I play a Tiefling Fire Sorc and while I love my build and feel pretty good about it, it’s taken me 8 VERY long years of playing consistently every week to BARELY be able to do r5 today. I can’t do that with my FS, Druid, Ranger, Arti or Dark Cleric alts. None of which have more than 3 lives.

If with a good group I can mostly survive in r7-10 w the main — but ONLY w tanks and healers. I have good gear, 57 RP, all epic lives and have NOT yet been able to complete racial lives or heroic. If you’re soloing endgame what specifically do you have life wise? To say it’s unfair but provide no details about the build makes it hard to pinpoint what it really is that’s causing your frustration.

Maybe people you’re playing with are able to breeze through endgame but it sure is NOT me or anyone I play with.

I wish everyone would stop saying when they’re frustrated it’s everyone else that needs some sort of nerf. Well guess what? I don’t have 600 PRR & 300 MRR and 6000 HP and armor and shields. Should I complain because I can’t melee 1 on 1? I. Absolutely NEED ranged to survive at all. I’m in a mob and I’m dead. I get a doom reaper aura or carnage and I’m a dead caster. Too many HP damage to absorb. And ranged is good for short times, then you’re mobbed and dead. I’m running around w barely more than a g string and a stick over here! Gimme a break brother! LOL!

[songswrath]

I don’t know where you or anyone else gets this OP anything for casters. I play a Tiefling Fire Sorc and while I love my build and feel pretty good about it, it’s taken me 8 VERY long years of playing consistently every week to BARELY be able to do r5 today. I can’t do that with my FS, Druid, Ranger, Arti or Dark Cleric alts. None of which have more than 3 lives.

If with a good group I can mostly survive in r7-10 w the main — but ONLY w tanks and healers. I have good gear, 57 RP, all epic lives and have NOT yet been able to complete racial lives or heroic. If you’re soloing endgame what specifically do you have life wise? To say it’s unfair but provide no details about the build makes it hard to pinpoint what it really is that’s causing your frustration.

Maybe people you’re playing with are able to breeze through endgame but it sure is NOT me or anyone I play with.

I wish everyone would stop saying when they’re frustrated it’s everyone else that needs some sort of nerf. Well guess what? I don’t have 600 PRR & 300 MRR and 6000 HP and armor and shields. Should I complain because I can’t melee 1 on 1? I. Absolutely NEED ranged to survive at all. I’m in a mob and I’m dead. I get a doom reaper aura or carnage and I’m a dead caster. Too many HP damage to absorb. And ranged is good for short times, then you’re mobbed and dead. I’m running around w barely more than a g string and a stick over here! Gimme a break brother! LOL!

i feel you my main is a fully maxxed out toon all past lifes capped r points most gear you can think of so yah it cant be compared to a newer player

[CaptainSpacePony]

I just finished reading the stuff on lamaland.


I'm not sure how it fits exactly into the points in the OP, but I do fear the new imbue system is going to really change a lot of things. As with all big change, I fear it could be bad, but I'm unable to tell by merely reading.

[songswrath]

I just finished reading the stuff on lamaland.


I'm not sure how it fits exactly into the points in the OP, but I do fear the new imbue system is going to really change a lot of things. As with all big change, I fear it could be bad, but I'm unable to tell by merely reading.

they are unneeded updates that in turn are just nerfing who they think they are are buffing cause dev don't play the game. for example many of the inbues we have now do ok to great damage on their own. stacking them into one damage type is bad.thats basicly whats going here. Options and choices are great.
trying not to Trun this into a general everything post and keep on topic. There are many different playstyles balance changes to style will have a greater impact both pos and neg to dif play styles. that my point of this post

[FatBudScream]

I feel you Songswrath.
I had the luck and time to play with you, I understand you are a specialist of melee, an experienced raid and reaper player, one who went for high end challenges and still offer some support to casual gamers.

At this rate, I must say I don't judge or disagree with your review of the game, I'll state that your opinion is forged by years of playing, full completionnism, hours of R10 and lot of zerging.
And as you project different game types into one single DDO, its as much as a flaw than a blessing.
Heroïc at your own pace has its own rules, Epic becomes slowly crazy, Legendary is going too fast when you need to TR again and Reaper can be as much a surprise success than a disappointing wipe.
When you don't have many more challenge to look for, all that remains is love of your build, active social on the server (and maybe forums) and ultimately a good pack of friends you want to venture with in the server and a friendlist full of contacts to look for. And changes coming might be seen like something bothering you and trying to force you changing your good build habits and recipe.

On the other side, when you are still on the early age of your account or past lives collection, you hang on, with determination, slowly grinding the gear and filling your bank, still hoping for more. You fancy a bad build just to test, you take challenges and remember with risks come excitment. You want more of those bonus others have and you think inside a small hidden part of your dark thougts that you'll be doing better - maybe.
Competition has its thrill and rules.

I might be slightly crazy because I love when the game I'm playing tells me there's new things coming, new mechanics in the battlesystem, more choice in one of the builds I fondly retried, more possibilities to change my role in the raid and even new way to solo that one dungeon resisting me.
I offer my support to a small group of others who use to refuse it because they want to discover by themselves - and they rightfully dont trust me enough!?

About your other point, even me seeing myself more of a caster specialist, I agree there should be more love of tanking, maybe more dedication to melee and players happy to see anything else than a group filled with Alchemists , Sorcerors and Inquisitives. I always thougt its easier to choose range and casters when you spend your time in solo, it changes the way you see the game and work inside - so after all I doomed myself early.

Now there are highs and lows playing all year long, aren't you just depressed looking at next update and realising its just annoying to your eyes, because at your state of the game, you won't see major changes helping players looking for tough melees enthousiats, and hard work on the enemy pack, with aggro rules and team support?

Why not make the work by asking the question around you, and use your experience to slowly push players to consider your way, if its not what you're already doing by this thread ^^
Tell them how much of an exciting challenge it is to melee, that balance of classes is an illusion in every MMO, and that making next update their own (since it will come whatever we do) is just clever.

[Inanout]

They shake things up so we pay to redo our Toons. It is not about QOL for players.
The problem is the new Devs are learning as they go and having them shake the game up to me seems risky.

Why they would use the term shake the game up?
Why not adjusting the game?
I guess shaking is more accurate as they break things and add more confusion.
In my opinion only.

[songswrath]

I feel you Songswrath.
I had the luck and time to play with you, I understand you are a specialist of melee, an experienced raid and reaper player, one who went for high end challenges and still offer some support to casual gamers.

At this rate, I must say I don't judge or disagree with your review of the game, I'll state that your opinion is forged by years of playing, full completionnism, hours of R10 and lot of zerging.
And as you project different game types into one single DDO, its as much as a flaw than a blessing.
Heroïc at your own pace has its own rules, Epic becomes slowly crazy, Legendary is going too fast when you need to TR again and Reaper can be as much a surprise success than a disappointing wipe.
When you don't have many more challenge to look for, all that remains is love of your build, active social on the server (and maybe forums) and ultimately a good pack of friends you want to venture with in the server and a friendlist full of contacts to look for. And changes coming might be seen like something bothering you and trying to force you changing your good build habits and recipe.

On the other side, when you are still on the early age of your account or past lives collection, you hang on, with determination, slowly grinding the gear and filling your bank, still hoping for more. You fancy a bad build just to test, you take challenges and remember with risks come excitment. You want more of those bonus others have and you think inside a small hidden part of your dark thougts that you'll be doing better - maybe.
Competition has its thrill and rules.

I might be slightly crazy because I love when the game I'm playing tells me there's new things coming, new mechanics in the battlesystem, more choice in one of the builds I fondly retried, more possibilities to change my role in the raid and even new way to solo that one dungeon resisting me.
I offer my support to a small group of others who use to refuse it because they want to discover by themselves - and they rightfully dont trust me enough!?

About your other point, even me seeing myself more of a caster specialist, I agree there should be more love of tanking, maybe more dedication to melee and players happy to see anything else than a group filled with Alchemists , Sorcerors and Inquisitives. I always thougt its easier to choose range and casters when you spend your time in solo, it changes the way you see the game and work inside - so after all I doomed myself early.

Now there are highs and lows playing all year long, aren't you just depressed looking at next update and realising its just annoying to your eyes, because at your state of the game, you won't see major changes helping players looking for tough melees enthousiats, and hard work on the enemy pack, with aggro rules and team support?

Why not make the work by asking the question around you, and use your experience to slowly push players to consider your way, if its not what you're already doing by this thread ^^
Tell them how much of an exciting challenge it is to melee, that balance of classes is an illusion in every MMO, and that making next update their own (since it will come whatever we do) is just clever.

100% thats why i play like i play i enjoy helping players grow. us vet player have a job to teach the new blood. there a time and a place to go to beast mode if you know what i mean. there no fun in zerging ahead and killing everything or completing quest before 1/2 group is even in. as it states in my bio here game is fun when you stop caring how long it takes.

[songswrath]

They shake things up so we pay to redo our Toons. It is not about QOL for players.
The problem is the new Devs are learning as they go and having them shake the game up to me seems risky.

Why they would use the term shake the game up?
Why not adjusting the game?
I guess shaking is more accurate as they break things and add more confusion.
In my opinion only.

i get it's learning on the job but they don't listen to vet players. they only listen to the yes men. i be glad to help out in the development in any way i can i love this game . but this unneeded change for change's sake is killing the player base fast.

[Monkey_Archer]

The major flaw here is we have 5 dif games in one 1:heroic leveling 2: epic leveling 3: high reaper/end game questing 4: raiding 5: pushing raiding.

1. Heroic leveling is easy by design, and most build have no issues with this. The one class that actually struggles a bit (fighter) just got a self healing buff. Casters may be too strong for mid levels and TWF is pointless, but leveling as THF and swapping out the feat later is easy enough. I'd like to see TWF get buffed for low levels.
2. Epic leveling is more balanced than heroic leveling IMO. I see no need for major changes here.
3. High reaper/endgame questing is a joke of a zerg fest. There are 14 difficulty settings: all of them easy. Constant power creep since the stat squish combined with the monster hp nerf is the problem. Endgame monsters need at least twice as much hp to provide any sort of challenge, and more deathwarded champions so instakillers don't just take over. Whether this is done through re-balancing r10 or introducing r11+ doesn't matter to me.
4. Casual raiding is in a pretty good state atm. Most groups can complete most raid on at least hard. The slow rate of raid releases is starting to catch up though... With most legendary raids starting to become obsolete we will really need a new infusion soon to get the raid scene interesting again. Legendary Titan and Tower of Despair please.
5. Raid pushing is only a thing for a small minority of players and builds, so balancing for this is likely not possible. The sample size of players and builds doing this is just too small to make any real balance judgements besides the obvious dominance of a certain dps style...

[Duckology]

Basic expiation of state of game today. @SSG @Lynnabel @Torc

over the past year plus there been alot of trying to rebalance the game updates. The major flaw here is we have 5 dif games in one

IMHO, When they decided to move away from the official D&D rule book and game dynamics that they are paying to license they opened Pandora's box. There are way more than 5 different games going on, and the need to both keep existing high value players and recruit new players are unfortunately diametrically opposed propositions. On one hand you want new players to be able to join groups but if you provide new players with options that allow them to feel useful in groups you are discounting the investments in both time and money that veteran players have invested. It is a conundrum that they have not yet solved and the attempts to "balance" the game have done more to decrease the user base than achieve this illusory "balance".

The licensing of the D&D content and bringing what is still a popular table top game online was a natural evolution of the game that represents a massive monetary opportunity IF done correctly. Regardless of the rationale for "updates" , careful consideration should be paid to any changes that Nerf existing game dynamics that required either capital investment by the players or a substantial time investment. Doing so will eventually create negative EBITDA and game death that no spirit cake will resurrect....

An analogy that might make this particular point very clear: I bought a Tesla at least in part because it has "insane" mode. Now imagine that Tesla released an "update" because previous owners complained that my "insane" option was ruining their fun, that cut insane mode in half. Tesla of course would never do such a thing because it would be illegal to advertise and sell a product or service and then deliver something that was substantially inferior to what was promised.

I realize that the devs have finite resources and that they are being directed to prioritize a lot of different game dynamics from creating new content to fixing old content all the while operating within the confines of hardware/software limitations. IMHO the devs should at least raise the issue that clearly the direction of the game based on user count is heading in the wrong direction, this is my observation having logged 2600hrs in game, groups are down substantially, new players are down substantially and the effort to remain EBITDA positive from fewer players means trying to squeeze more revenue from a player base that already is one of the highest revenue per player games. This is untenable in the long run.....Playing whack-a-mole with OP builds is not working...

It is easy to criticize, so how about possible solutions instead? One of the aspects of D&D that DDO has entirely ignored is that of the DM. There is already a plethora of options for dungeon creation. Let veteran players create dungeons. "But then we can't sell content!", Sell the DM option instead initially, and let the players who finish a DM created dungeon rate it. If a dungeon generates a high enough rating it graduates to premium status gets added to the DDO store and the DM who created participates in the revenue.... Just my 2 cents...

I'll also add that the devs who create the DM template should also participate in the revenue generated.. you are basically asking them to automate their job essentially eliminating their position... so some additional incentive will be necessary.

[Wizard1406]

1. Heroic leveling is easy by design, and most build have no issues with this. The one class that actually struggles a bit (fighter) just got a self healing buff. Casters may be too strong for mid levels and TWF is pointless, but leveling as THF and swapping out the feat later is easy enough. I'd like to see TWF get buffed for low levels.
2. Epic leveling is more balanced than heroic leveling IMO. I see no need for major changes here.
3. High reaper/endgame questing is a joke of a zerg fest. There are 14 difficulty settings: all of them easy. Constant power creep since the stat squish combined with the monster hp nerf is the problem. Endgame monsters need at least twice as much hp to provide any sort of challenge, and more deathwarded champions so instakillers don't just take over. Whether this is done through re-balancing r10 or introducing r11+ doesn't matter to me.
   

- Yeah heroic is easy (unless you run into multiple "super champ" casters, but that's rare), they proposed improvements to healing penalty, so classes without the "heal" spell (or lots of temp HP) will suffer less.
- Epic is much better since the changes I agree
- I think for the majority of the playerbase R8-10 is still very difficult. Zerger difficulty is more like R6, unless you are a top player. I think R10 is plenty difficult already, but R11 why not?

[TrinityTurtle]

Basic expiation of state of game today. @SSG @Lynnabel @Torc
stop caring about people that have solo r10 solo'ed this or that ect..

This. There is one things the devs don't want to acknowledge, and this is it. It's completely unfun to waste an hour or two of game time waiting for the right classes to want to do the quests/chain you want to do. A lot of people have tight scedules and not so long to play. Or to find people in your level entirely if you're active time is not a popular busy one. Not to mention punishing people for putting in the effort to be good enough to do that, or worse spend enough (you do realize the revenue keeps the lights on right Devs?) is just...wrong.

Those are my thoughts in general. Here is my personal take since people have been sharing those.

I'm a moderate skill player. I've had to work hard to get where I am. My current comfort levels are generally R4's, but I have played in groups up to r10's. So... I'm sort of wondering why I should keep going. It's demoralizing to watch them constantly punish the people who worked or spent hard (I don't care which, people can moralize about it all they want, both benefit me as a player. Group A helps me get big numbers when they have room, and group B keeps the lights on and developement money coming in. Sure I'm vip, but I pay the $99 a year option. That isn't going far to pay for new content, let's be real).

I play most of the classes. There are some that are just unfun to me, off the top of my head fighter and barbarian. I'm not saying they are bad, just they aren't fun to ME. So yes, I have toons of all the niche and support classes. But I don't want to only get to play the rouge or cleric because I'm good at a variety and the rest of my group specializes in a class they like and can't.

I'm one of the people who posts groups. I LIKE being able to take my little group of three and just go in on the public option and take whatever three toons join. No questions asked, anyone who can behave decently and not be a jerk, is welcome, be you a new player or a vet. We can keep up with the zergers, we can flower sniff and help the newbie learn, whatever we get. One of the main problems with the lfm is...people don't want to post. I do it because I'm usually a social turtle and like to post the spots so people who can't or don't want to do it alone have an option. We don't need them, we're being nice because it's fun to be and meet people and sometimes learn a new thing about a quest or teach a new thing and just hear about things all over the world. So taking that away from my group makes that lfm board even emptier, not fuller is one of my fears with this line of thinking they are spouting.

I"m also a pen and paper dm. And this is not pen and paper, but there is ONE thing the devs and a p&p dm have in common. You're here to entertain us, to make us happy. When you are trying to force you're idea of how it should be on us and ignoring us when we try to discuss why it's not doing it and why we're really getting unhappy, you're failing at your primary duty to us, the thing we pay you for. NO, I'm not threatening to cancel my sub and go home. When I do that I'll be one of those quiet ones, becuase realistically, no one but me cares about my sub. And I'm not interested in manipulation tactics, just discussion and finding a better way than has been here. I've been playing since 2009. I've been through lots of nerfs and just changes, and adjusted. But this mentality that no one should be able to achieve...this is just...wrong.

[Marshal_Lannes]

The biggest issue with the game, as far as I'm concerned, is that it currently seems if you don't have a static group of players, a set raid day, or a guild you play with every session the game is becoming tedious to play. The LFM panel routinely has only 1-3 epic questing options. Frankly, I don't care what X class can or cannot do. It doesn't matter when there is nowhere to play. I find myself playing less and less the last several weeks because of the lack of Legendary groups. Currently, I'd rate the game; Heroic Questing A-, Epic Questing B-, Legendary Questing D, Raiding A.

[Oxarhamar]

The biggest issue with the game, as far as I'm concerned, is that it currently seems if you don't have a static group of players, a set raid day, or a guild you play with every session the game is becoming tedious to play. The LFM panel routinely has only 1-3 epic questing options. Frankly, I don't care what X class can or cannot do. It doesn't matter when there is nowhere to play. I find myself playing less and less the last several weeks because of the lack of Legendary groups. Currently, I'd rate the game; Heroic Questing A-, Epic Questing B-, Legendary Questing D, Raiding A.

Try putting up your own groups or making some friends/guildies it is an MMO if you want to play with others put in a little effort