U57 Preview 2 Hit Point Pass

[Cashiry]

This simply requires you to spend a feat, and you'll permanently gain the bonus hitpoints, is that correct?
If not, and you only benefit from the hitpoints when you're actually in that combat style, what happens when a melee Fighter switches to a scroll to cast Raise Dead?

My expectation here is that every nuking caster will just either take some TWF or THF feats depending on whether he's wielding dual-sceptres or a qstaff and suffer virtually no ill effects (other than the feat slot(s)).
Is there some other drawback for casters that I'm totally missing here? Like some casting penalties while in a combat style or something?

I mean, if a caster was already taking the Toughness and Epic Toughness feats, I would expect it to be a no-brainer to take two of the Combat Style feats instead for +50% hitpoints, and probably not too much harder to justify another feat or two for another 25-50%.

I get that there's a lot of moving parts here, but this still just feels to me like a definite win for casters and a giant, fat question mark for melees.

all you need is four combat style feats. It does not look at what weapon your carrying.

casters aren’t going to take TWF or THF or some other combat feet. Not sure where you think casters are going to benefit from this.

[jskinner937]

all you need is for combat style feats. It does not look at what weapon your carrying.

casters aren’t going to take TWF or THF or some other combat feet. Not sure where you think casters are going to benefit from this.

Agreed. They gimp themselves if taking more than 1 feat. And I hate hearing the arguments of melee vs casters. People act like they only play either melee or caster. This is simply an illusion created to make a point. Everyone that plays DDO for any length of time has alts or has TRed.

Agree melee needs a buff, but come on with the fake perspective.

[elvesunited]

all you need is four combat style feats. It does not look at what weapon your carrying.

casters aren’t going to take TWF or THF or some other combat feet. Not sure where you think casters are going to benefit from this.

Let's say a sorceror or alchemist caster takes a melee feat. ( and has the BAB and prereqs for it )

At level 20 ( melee feat ) : 30 hp
At level 20 ( toughness ) : 22 hp

At level 30 ( melee feat ) : 42 hp ( 170 / 4 )
At level 30 ( toughness ) : 32 hp

That makes it marginally better than toughness. But let's expand this to epic toughness for those caster so desperate for hp they're willing to give up on spell casting feats for it.

At level 30 ( 2 melee feats ) : 85 hp ( 170 / 2 )
At level 30 ( toughness + epic toughness ) : 82 hp

So, yes a caster so thirsty for hp they are willing to waste feats on it is marginally better off going with combat feats over toughness. But not by much. You want to even things up? Then just modify Toughness so it provides bonus hp just like melee feat does but really it is not that much hp we're talking about here.

[Xgya]

*snip*
So, yes a caster so thirsty for hp they are willing to waste feats on it is marginally better off going with combat feats over toughness. But not by much. You want to even things up? Then just modify Toughness so it provides bonus hp just like melee feat does but really it is not that much hp we're talking about here.

This proves the Toughness line is long overdue the upgrade treatment.

Devs are essentially ready to outright GIVE the benefits of the feats on top of existing feats combat builds are almost forced to take.

What if Toughness, a feat mostly taken by the squishier characters, also got some side benefit, like increasing max MRR? As someone that has recently played Sacred Fists a lot, compared to other Paladins, magic is PAINFUL. Painful enough that I might waste a feat on it? Maybe not, but I can at least see the draw.

[DRAXnekro]

Let's say a sorceror or alchemist caster takes a melee feat. ( and has the BAB and prereqs for it )

At level 20 ( melee feat ) : 30 hp
At level 20 ( toughness ) : 22 hp

At level 30 ( melee feat ) : 42 hp ( 170 / 4 )
At level 30 ( toughness ) : 32 hp

That makes it marginally better than toughness. But let's expand this to epic toughness for those caster so desperate for hp they're willing to give up on spell casting feats for it.

At level 30 ( 2 melee feats ) : 85 hp ( 170 / 2 )
At level 30 ( toughness + epic toughness ) : 82 hp

So, yes a caster so thirsty for hp they are willing to waste feats on it is marginally better off going with combat feats over toughness. But not by much. You want to even things up? Then just modify Toughness so it provides bonus hp just like melee feat does but really it is not that much hp we're talking about here.

How about leave the toughness line of feats as they are but make them scale with combat feats just like class base dice will. This might solve some hp problems for tanks or other hp hungry melee. We might even see some non-CON based tanks with enough hp.

[Abilbo]

edited, as I saw my question answered.

[Tilomere]

I noticed this was called the 2 Hit Point Pass:



Since the stat squish my uberpletionist melee wiz gets killed in 1 hit from multistrike and dual wield champions unless it plays in US:



This patch nerfs my zombie melee by 25% hp, and it was already getting killed in 1 hit. So technically, shouldn't this be called the 1 Hit Point Pass?

[TueNictGut]

Would you possibly consider putting this bonus in Knife Specialization instead?

Signed

Also do the same for ninja and henshin instead of creating a new t5

[TueNictGut]

all you need is four combat style feats. It does not look at what weapon your carrying.

casters aren’t going to take TWF or THF or some other combat feet. Not sure where you think casters are going to benefit from this.

Ranged Rangers are still a problem though, as they get the bonus from their class automatically, as far as i can see.

[nectmarpowerhand]

I'm really unsure what this is going to mean for my first life dwarf 14 Animal Domain Cleric / 6 Zombie Palemaster. With the current build, which I really don't want to change, I will no longer have a Competence bonus to HP at all, and Animal Domain is getting lessened. I don't like knights transformation for the character, because of the touch range limitation (unclear if that will still exist after this). I'm taking T5 Palemaster for the Profane % bonus to HP from Zombie, so I won't have Divine Bastion from Warpriest. I may be overseeing something, but it appears to be removing a large chunk of my HP on a first life character that my level 32 character plan on DDOBuilder shows will have 5,230 HP. I feel like I could lose 500+ HP on my build.

[Stravix]

I'm really unsure what this is going to mean for my first life dwarf 14 Animal Domain Cleric / 6 Zombie Palemaster. With the current build, which I really don't want to change, I will no longer have a Competence bonus to HP at all, and Animal Domain is getting lessened. I don't like knights transformation for the character, because of the touch range limitation (unclear if that will still exist after this). I'm taking T5 Palemaster for the Profane % bonus to HP from Zombie, so I won't have Divine Bastion from Warpriest. I may be overseeing something, but it appears to be removing a large chunk of my HP on a first life character that my level 32 character plan on DDOBuilder shows will have 5,230 HP. I feel like I could lose 500+ HP on my build.

KT will not have the touch restriction now (per what I remember). Will you be running combat feats? Because if so, you will gain 2 additional HP per cleric level (+8 from combat feats, but -6 from animal nerfs), +8 per wizard level (due to +6 from combat feats and +2 from HD increase), -1 HP per Epic level (+5 from combat feats, but -6 from animal nerf) for a total of +64 base HP, but a need to get a competence bonus from somewhere.

You are likely best to get warpriest t4 and core 4, if HP is that big of a concern, as between comp and sacred, you would get +30% HP

[elvesunited]

--- Big winners ---

Ranged characters with ranger levels: +25% base hp for 2 ranger levels. +50% for 6 ranger levels. +75% for 11 rangers levels.

Most Melee builds: Get a few hundred hp from melee combat feat base hp bonus and Comp hp from Tier 5.

Many Thrower builds: Get the comp hp bonus on a lot of cases. Given how few throwers remain after getting nerfed so hard in recent times I can't object.

A few bow / crossbow builds: Paladin KOTC ranged / Swashbuckler Inquistitve light x-bow / Gnome battle engineer using light x-bow manage to sneak through the cracks.


--- Small Winners ---

Ranged or caster characters that got a hit die increase: They can get more by choosing melee combat feats but that is only slightly better than just taking toughness feats so not worth worrying about.

Melee favored and melee animal domain clerics as the melee feat hp bonus ( 210 at level 30 ) is offset by the nerf ( -180 hp at level 30 )


--- Got Nothing ---
Warlock, druid, cleric ( non-animal ) casters.


--- Big Losers ---

Favored souls and clerics casters with animal domain: It's just a straight nerf.

Palemaster melees that go tier 5 in pale master: Should be easily fixable as Tier 5 Ascendant Shroud could be used to give comp hp for zombies and perhaps even vampires.

Those few melee builds that do not go Tier 5 in any melee tree and no longer gets comp hp

That one guy who made a Tier 5 Harper melee character on a bet. ( No comp hp ) Not me. But statistically he probably exists.

[nectmarpowerhand]

KT will not have the touch restriction now (per what I remember). Will you be running combat feats? Because if so, you will gain 2 additional HP per cleric level (+8 from combat feats, but -6 from animal nerfs), +8 per wizard level (due to +6 from combat feats and +2 from HD increase), -1 HP per Epic level (+5 from combat feats, but -6 from animal nerf) for a total of +64 base HP, but a need to get a competence bonus from somewhere.

You are likely best to get warpriest t4 and core 4, if HP is that big of a concern, as between comp and sacred, you would get +30% HP

I do have Core 4 in Warpriest for the Sacred, and all Shield Mastery feats. This was intended to be an HP character. I am proud of my 5k HP on a first life with no Reaper. I guess I will have to see if I can swing the Knight's Transformation since the penalty will be removed, and I really don't want that Competence bonus loss. Thanks for the info. I'll just hold my breath a little longer. This is just Preview 2 of 3!

[JollySwagMan]

Second Wind sounds pretty sweet!

HP from combat style feats will work pretty well for a lot of folx. I like the idea that someone posted about giving bonuses for less common martial feats too.
On a fighter love tangent: how about a stacking bonus to tactics DCs for each tactical attack feat?

I didn't take GTHF on most recent melee, felt like ITHF was a good break point + seemed like was mostly tanking single target red names.
Extra 25% HP is probably worth trading Improved Shield Mastery for though...

[nectmarpowerhand]

I do have Core 4 in Warpriest for the Sacred, and all Shield Mastery feats. This was intended to be an HP character. I am proud of my 5k HP on a first life with no Reaper. I guess I will have to see if I can swing the Knight's Transformation since the penalty will be removed, and I really don't want that Competence bonus loss. Thanks for the info. I'll just hold my breath a little longer. This is just Preview 2 of 3!

Well, I didn't notice that the Competence bonus was attached to IMPROVED Knight's Transformation. Since that is t5, I won't be able to get it. Simply put, if they don't include a sizable Competence bonus in the Palemaster tree, I am going to lose 500+ HP. Right now the DDOBuilder says that I am gaining 726 HP from my 25% Competence bonus from Epic Defensive Fighting. Not much happy about that.

[Maldrick]

Well, I didn't notice that the Competence bonus was attached to IMPROVED Knight's Transformation. Since that is t5, I won't be able to get it. Simply put, if they don't include a sizable Competence bonus in the Palemaster tree, I am going to lose 500+ HP. Right now the DDOBuilder says that I am gaining 726 HP from my 25% Competence bonus from Epic Defensive Fighting. Not much happy about that.

I played a build based on a similar premise. Mine was 12 cleric, 5 wizard, 3 fighter and used Stalwart Defense. If you had the points Stalwart Defense will still be giving 25% hp.

[steadlere]

I realy think the monk should be on par with fighter, ranger and pali for it's base HP tier. having cleric, druid, bard that can have a lot more healing and spell casting possibility being in the same category as a monk that is pretty much limited to melee dps(if not a shuriken build - wich is on par with ranger) is stange to me.

[elvesunited]

I realy think the monk should be on par with fighter, ranger and pali for it's base HP tier. having cleric, druid, bard that can have a lot more healing and spell casting possibility being in the same category as a monk that is pretty much limited to melee dps(if not a shuriken build - wich is on par with ranger) is stange to me.

Interestingly with this update the hit die is being modified to match that of 5th Edition with one exception

D&D 5th edition
-----------------------------------------------
d6 Sorcerer, wizard
d8 Artificer, bard, cleric, druid, monk, rogue, warlock
d10 Fighter, paladin, ranger
d12 Barbarian

[Lotoc]

It could make sense to give the Dark Apostate tree a 15% competence bonus in the t5, specifically to Ultimate Heresy.
The imbue dice in DA are very costly for a caster build using the tree and you'd basically only really invest that heavily in them if you intended to hit enemies with your weapons, so it definitely wouldn't be unreasonable to grant a melee orientated Apostate the health bump.
(also probably should give like 7.5% comp HP to Zombie Shroud in PM and have ascendant shroud double it)

[VinoeWhines]

Hey this is an update to the hit point pass for Lammania preview 2.

Rogue
T5 Assassin Light Armor Mastery Rank 3 - Grants a 25% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original bonuses.
T5 - Acrobat- Staff Specialist - Grants 25% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original bonuses.

Epic Defensive Fighting: Will be removed from the game. (still)

Would you possibly consider putting this bonus in Knife Specialization instead?

I was thinking the same, please ????

(Rogue, Assassin, t5, hp comp bonus)

I would think also it would be received well in Knife Specialization or Deadly Strikes in the Enhancement Tree.

But as many others have stated, the removal of Epic Defensive Fighting could be stomached better, since that ability wasn't based on T5 Trees, if it's going to be scribed into Enhancement Trees, maybe it should be in Tier II and III melee Enhancement trees or even better yet the Cores of Melee Trees in Cores II and III and to be non stackable from other Enhancement Trees or just like, being stated it caps at 25%, no matter what Melee Core you choose, to allow build variety to remain and not be forced to take a Tier V tree.

I use Tier V Trees so it would viable but I know there are multi classes that don't use any Tier V Enhancements(or not Tier IV even?) to be able to thinly spread their builds to life.
Build diversity shouldn't be shrunk with each occurring update.

My build got screwed over in how Shadow Dancer's lost so many utilitarian abilities and having a second form of assassinating(Executioners Strike/Shot), making an aggro puppet in Shadow Manipulation to help out defensively(had a long cooldown),and Consume(Implosion) was a help when you got hit out of Stealth and drew aggro.

The proposed: Sleight of Hand - Wand and Scroll Mastery doesn't stack at all, like it was suppose to, it doesn't.

Sleight of Hand should be:

Sleight of Hand: Traps and Vial Mastery: You can make Noisemaker Traps or Noisemaker Vials(on exploding they stick to door/wall and make ticking sound), with the ability to place or throw in stealth.

(Tier 1): If you have the Trapmaking Feat, you can now add your Sneak Attack Dice and Damage to Traps and Vials.
(Tier 2): You can use the higher of Melee or Range Power to Traps and Vials you Throw.
(Tier 3):You can inscribe scrolls as Traps and Alchemical Recipes as Vials.

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Thanks again Torc for your endless work in putting your time into this game.
That goes to all the developers/producers/designers/testers, with a presence here and all the silent majority in the background coding away.