Pure Pal, gotta chose between Dragonborn or HalfElf, what is better ?

[drathdragon]

Need your opinion:

between Dragonborn and HalfElf , wich one would you chose for a Paladin build ?

please help.

thanks

[drathdragon]

Bumpedebump ?

[Djjinni]

This post contains absolutely no info on what criteria they should be judged and what you're looking to get out of the character build and you'll, at best, just get people choosing their own arbitrary preference.

The intended role, fighting style, content goals, character investment, etc would all be useful information. Even the number of racial AP available can significantly change what people might suggest for build power reasons.


Aesthetically they are vastly different and people won't be able to help you choose between a dragon and an elf.
I would note that Dragonborn can't wear many helm styles well, but otherwise, it's entirely down to what *you* want to look at.

Standard advice.. make a character of each and test which animations you like better for the style you want to play.

If you're unsure, you'd be just as well off flipping a coin than basing this on any feedback here though.

[drathdragon]

This post contains absolutely no info on what criteria they should be judged and what you're looking to get out of the character build and you'll, at best, just get people choosing their own arbitrary preference.

The intended role, fighting style, content goals, character investment, etc would all be useful information. Even the number of racial AP available can significantly change what people might suggest for build power reasons.


Aesthetically they are vastly different and people won't be able to help you choose between a dragon and an elf.
I would note that Dragonborn can't wear many helm styles well, but otherwise, it's entirely down to what *you* want to look at.

Standard advice.. make a character of each and test which animations you like better for the style you want to play.

If you're unsure, you'd be just as well off flipping a coin than basing this on any feedback here though.

ok ok.. i'll give you more info.

fighting style - two hands weapon (great sword)
role : dps (not tank) + various possible clickly actions
goals: absolute badass at endgame r10, i want it be faaastt... (dragonborn aren't fast sigh)
solo capable, not healer, no turn undead (paladin are not good at it anyway i know)
some points to spend on fey Illusionist Enhancements (imbue, cha for hit, ray, cat shield)


but mostly i wanted to know if i loose some high level power with smite evil if i chose HalfElf instead of Dragonborn (that have +2 cha bonus)
with HalfELf i will be able to regain that initial Dragonborn +2 cha, soon or later 'till lvl20 ?

[Bunker]

There are no amazing benefits to either race for a Pure Paladin, that is if you had the choice of others beside Helf and DragonBall.

The being said.

Half Elf

[unbongwah]

Dragonborn is +2 STR +2 CHA with another +2 to either stat in their racial tree. So that's an obvious advantage for 2HF paladin, either STR- or CHA-based. There's some other perks too like heal amp, extra action boosts, Brute Fighting if you're hate-tanking, and Memory of Flight if you don't have another source for a Leap-of-Faith-style ability.

Half-elf is niche-ier in the sense you have to find a reason to play a HE instead of human. I would consider a Sacred Fist with rogue dilettante to add some sneak attack, which would stack with sneak attacks from e.g. Shadow Dancer and Scion of the Ethereal Plane. Though TBH that's me looking for a pretext to run a half-elf, not a minmaxer's choice.

[Vellrad]

dragon.

because its not elf.

[Memnir]

The human half of Helf.

[Djjinni]

ok ok.. i'll give you more info.

fighting style - two hands weapon (great sword)
role : dps (not tank) + various possible clickly actions
goals: absolute badass at endgame r10, i want it be faaastt... (dragonborn aren't fast sigh)
solo capable, not healer, no turn undead (paladin are not good at it anyway i know)
some points to spend on fey Illusionist Enhancements (imbue, cha for hit, ray, cat shield)


but mostly i wanted to know if i loose some high level power with smite evil if i chose HalfElf instead of Dragonborn (that have +2 cha bonus)
with HalfELf i will be able to regain that initial Dragonborn +2 cha, soon or later 'till lvl20 ?

That's way better info and now hopefully suggestions will be a little more helpful to your specific wants. You don't mention Reincarnation so this reads like a new character? What has limited you to these two choices?



Endgame R10 performance will come down to gameplay and gearing investment more than any specific paladin/race features so I won't focus much on that here and just say that paladin is a kinda *average* performer there.
Decent baseline melee but takes some work to excel.

This type of thing is generally going to be achieved by running standard THF+possibly Spring Attack feat lines(with tomes for Dex), with enhancements pretty much locked into 41 Knight of the Chalice/8-11 Vistani for Haste Boost, then either 13-14 Sacred Defender, or 31 here for a tankier version (although this doesn't allow you to run Charisma-based and you'd be Strength primary).

Investing into Falconry for sprints/hp/helpless damage is an option, although if you're aiming for charisma main stat this leaves the ap very tight (41 KotC/13SacDef/8 VKF/7-9 Feydark/rest Falconry) and doesn't leave you much room for racial points anyway.




Realistically race choice is such a small part of this build that you can pick the aesthetic you like still, though on balance I'd probably suggest a 41KotC/31SacDef/8VKF Dragonborn and go max Strength then healthy Con+Cha.
The +2 Cha bonus is essentially a rounding error when considering Smite damage as you'll be expecting to easily see 80-100 for your main stat once geared at level cap for R10s.





Couple of random notes:
Personally I found SWF performs better from epics onwards and is a little more versatile but there's good reasons to play a Fury/THF build also.
Paladin will never have good movement speed compared to many classes in the game. You can mitigate this with taking Exalted Angel wings in epics, and falconry sprints, but there is a power cost to fit those. You'll never really feel 'fast' but you can kill quickly.
If you're really set on Cha-based Greatsword.. consider PDK as with just a few bonus racial ap (TRs or Tome) you can pick up Cha hit/dmg in their racial tree.
The build would be playable as a 19/1 with the option to +1 into a Pure if you really like how it plays later on anyway.




tl;dr - You're absolutely overthinking a minor stat difference. Pick which one looks cooler swinging a weapon and running around.

[drathdragon]

That's way better info and now hopefully suggestions will be a little more helpful to your specific wants. You don't mention Reincarnation so this reads like a new character? What has limited you to these two choices?



Endgame R10 performance will come down to gameplay and gearing investment more than any specific paladin/race features so I won't focus much on that here and just say that paladin is a kinda *average* performer there.
Decent baseline melee but takes some work to excel.

This type of thing is generally going to be achieved by running standard THF+possibly Spring Attack feat lines(with tomes for Dex), with enhancements pretty much locked into 41 Knight of the Chalice/8-11 Vistani for Haste Boost, then either 13-14 Sacred Defender, or 31 here for a tankier version (although this doesn't allow you to run Charisma-based and you'd be Strength primary).

Investing into Falconry for sprints/hp/helpless damage is an option, although if you're aiming for charisma main stat this leaves the ap very tight (41 KotC/13SacDef/8 VKF/7-9 Feydark/rest Falconry) and doesn't leave you much room for racial points anyway.




Realistically race choice is such a small part of this build that you can pick the aesthetic you like still, though on balance I'd probably suggest a 41KotC/31SacDef/8VKF Dragonborn and go max Strength then healthy Con+Cha.
The +2 Cha bonus is essentially a rounding error when considering Smite damage as you'll be expecting to easily see 80-100 for your main stat once geared at level cap for R10s.





Couple of random notes:
Personally I found SWF performs better from epics onwards and is a little more versatile but there's good reasons to play a Fury/THF build also.
Paladin will never have good movement speed compared to many classes in the game. You can mitigate this with taking Exalted Angel wings in epics, and falconry sprints, but there is a power cost to fit those. You'll never really feel 'fast' but you can kill quickly.
If you're really set on Cha-based Greatsword.. consider PDK as with just a few bonus racial ap (TRs or Tome) you can pick up Cha hit/dmg in their racial tree.
The build would be playable as a 19/1 with the option to +1 into a Pure if you really like how it plays later on anyway.




tl;dr - You're absolutely overthinking a minor stat difference. Pick which one looks cooler swinging a weapon and running around.

great informations and help here.

thanks for your analysis.
Yeah i forgot to mention a lot of other details about the toon that i want.
But i wanted only to know your idea about those two choices without going to extreme details.. anyway,
the toon has 3 monks past lifes 1 ranger, 1 barb, 1 sorc, 1 wizard, 1 rogue.

This type of thing is generally going to be achieved by running standard THF+possibly Spring Attack feat lines(with tomes for Dex), with enhancements pretty much locked into 41 Knight of the Chalice/8-11 Vistani for Haste Boost, then either 13-14 Sacred Defender, or 31 here for a tankier version (although this doesn't allow you to run Charisma-based and you'd be Strength primary).

i don't know anything about 8-11 vistani for haste boost, i am going to look at, but why spring attack should be important ? and why you mention ''with tomes for dex'' ?

I was exactly thinking about Exalted Angel wings in epics, as you said.

anyway , good ... really good informations thanks a lot.

[drathdragon]

about the restriction of the choice between only Dragonborn & Half Elf,

the idea started with CHA bonuses.. who gives me the best opportuinity for a deadly smite evil ?

Dragonborn, Tiefling, Drow, .. Half Elf comes out because:
1 - i never made an HalfElf toon (so would be fun)
2 - was intrigued by 'dilettante feats' and Greater Dragonmark Spell: Call Lightning Storm (tho i suspect i wouldn't be able to spend enough points on it).
3 - can wear helmets XD

i was seriously consider Drow too, but i had a bad experience with it years ago.. i made a paladin drow and in the end
i was low on HitPoints, weak and squishy too easy on die. Ok was years ago when i didn't know welll the game.. but, i fear
to reapet the same errors, that's it

my question is:
since the last drow toon i made was some years ago, maybe now it's all different idk (expecially about HitPoints) at epic and Legendary levels.
can someone confirm me that drow would be difficult to build up as paladin ?

[Hobgoblin51]

mechanically, its dragonborn

Dragonborn gets .......

+2 Strength, +2 Charisma, -2 Dexterity
Breath weapon (optional enhancement): Tier 2 racial enhancement, 30 second cooldown, can take metamagic feats, deals [1d6+3]/character level, DC 10+Cha+Evocation+breath weapon bonuses (Acid breath uses Conjuration)

helf gets.....

Dilettante feat at level 1.
+1 racial bonus to Listen, Search, and Spot checks.
Naturally immune to magical sleep effects.
+2 racial bonus to Diplomacy, and also gain an additional check for each use of Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate on a separate cooldown timer.


so you get bonus to 2 stats you value and an aoe attack that has a saving throw based on cha.... vrs a dilli feat and immunity to sleep.

that doesnt seem like a hard choice....

but.....



you have to play a lizard. i hate playing a lizard.

thank you for elemental form on my druid so i dont have to look at a lizard.

now in the enhancement trees its more of a wash...

you get an aoe from dragonborn, you get hamp in both.... but helf gets slightly more. you get aoe from lightning storm, but thats a lot of ap

lizards get wings and hp and dc if your playing a class that cares about that

[Djjinni]

"i don't know anything about 8-11 vistani for haste boost, i am going to look at, but why spring attack should be important ? and why you mention ''with tomes for dex'' ?

Haste Boost is largely considered a baseline requirement for melee to be "viable" and while you can totally play well and do fine without it, well-used boosts contribute a fair amount when it comes to boss/Doom Reaper beatdowns and treating it as a must-have is usually the way to go. Running in Dreadnought for the 'mini' haste boost while using tactics boost could be another option that might help you land stuns etc on a lower-life melee.



A couple of popular feats require some Dex investment from build/tomes - Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack in this case which is often taken as a mobility tool and personally I wouldn't play melee without this as the game loves its Vengeance/Boss circles of death a bit too much right now. This line is also a bit more attractive now that Whirlwind Attack is apparently worth considering on THF although I haven't messed with it yet myself.

Another option with Dex is Precision, although the math of that vs Power Attack I'll leave to others. Just highlighting it as an option although sticking with PA will generally be fine

Dragonborns' Dex penalty *could* be a larger factor than its bonus Cha, depending on those choices.

the idea started with CHA bonuses.. who gives me the best opportuinity for a deadly smite evil ?

Racial Cha will be such a small amount of your total it should basically be ignored in favour of other factors (aesthetics, chosen racial PL, low hanging fruit in racial enhancements etc)

Many of your concerns there about survivability will definitely have been gearing/consumable/quest knowledge issues and you can fix those on any race paladin that interests you!

[drathdragon]

mechanically, its dragonborn

Dragonborn gets .......

XXX

helf gets.....

XXX


that doesnt seem like a hard choice....

but.....

you have to play a lizard. i hate playing a lizard.

Thanks for your help Hobgoblin

yeah i suppose you're right: Dragonborn should be the obvious, automatic better choice.

BUT
factually.. i hate to play lizard, me too.

Anyway today i will decide.

[drathdragon]

the chose has been made

and i must say, he is already a **** cool looking pal