Recent Update Overhauls Opinion

[Xezom]

First of all I want to say that I appreciate the work that dev put into this game. I've always loved DDO and have for a long time. I've been a VIP supporter for many many years now. This post and thread is not about bashing Devs nor the production team. I don't like seeing it. Nor is this thread about pure negativity. I hate hate posts with no constructive feedback or suggestions on how to fix things.

For me, the last few updates and overhauls have given me a bad taste in my mouth. Not because the overhauls are bad per se but because I don't feel like they are actually needed on a priority level. It's my opinion that most, definitely not all, of the overhauls over the last year-maybe two have just been lateral shifts. When I say overhauls I mean things like the Bow/IPS changes, DD changes, and now Imbues and HP changes. While a lot of the PARTS of these systems need to be updated and revamped, the entirety of the system itself doesn't feel like its a major issue. I'll grant that being part of the uninformed mass (which is another issue that needs to be addressed), it makes it difficult to see some of these changes in a positive way without knowing what is "coming down the pipeline" as it were. So far, I've not seen where the balance out from the Bow changes/IPS yet, but maybe I've missed it.

I feel like the Imbue change is a perfect example of change for change sake, but not where it is needed. I don't think I've seen a single post on the forums about how Imbues need to be universal Imbue Die and nonstacking. Anywhere. This is not a pain point for the community at all. There are things about imbues that have been mentioned such as poor scaling the later in the game you go due to lack of access to meaningful increases, but those concerns are not being addressed by this pass. I don't see what the goal of this pass is. From reading the post about it it's supposed to open up new interesting builds, but to me at least, all it does is standardize things. It makes it so that if you want o focus imbues, you'll be focused on ONE imbue rather than having a longer string of numbers for having multiples... and that's about it. If you aren't a character than runs multiple from multiple sources, there is no change at all for you (except maybe some numeric nerfs in the case of inquis). Even the Kings of imbues, EK and AA, aren't really getting much of a change in a positive manner. Most of the changes are just a lateral shift. I posted my feedback on the Lam server saying that AA non-damaging toggles shouldn't be considered Imbues since the Imbue post specifically noted that Imbues are toggles that add damage. It would be cool to be able to use both an ele imbue, and non-damaging toggle since the imbue changes really do nothing for it. With the current Implementation of the Imbue changes, there isn't anything new really happening. No NEW playstyles are being opened up, no NEW effects are being added, no NEW builds are being made possible. Everything in this overhaul is simply taking an existing system, slapping a fresh coat of paint on existing effects and standardizing all added on hit effects into a Imbue toggle and calling it an overhaul. In fact, I would almost argue that it's pigeonholing Imbues into having to be about stacking Imbue Dice from multiple sources. But then again those that were doing that before will continue to do it after the changes, and those that don't already still won't. So what does this change do? Nothing really.



Even with that feedback though, it's not a meaningful enough change to a pain point players have to justify the overhaul. Which leaves me asking, why? Why was it that Imbues of all things were the highest of priorities that they needed a full overhaul? Was there really some catastrophic behind the scenes damage that was being done that made them THAT important to change? I find it hard to believe that with all of the other systems, enhancement trees, classes, and style complaints and issues that have littered the forums for prolonged periods of time that Imbues were the MOST concerning thing to address.

It's been pointed out multiple times, both politely and not, that melee is in need of some serious love as a style. Monks need an overhaul and have for years. Wizards need some loving, especially Arch-mages and force spell users. Artificer and Druid Pet gear (collars) still don't work with their added damage effects and augments. With the release of the revamped epic destinies (which btw was actually one of the recent overhauls that I completely agree needed it and support the way it was done, so great job there), we were told there would be 3 new Epic destinies coming later that support the Artificer, Warlock, and Alchemist. Those have not yet materialized either. You can spend 1 hour on the forums and find enough issues that need to be addressed with classes, styles, enhancements and systems to fill the next 3 major updates with ease.


I guess what I'm saying is this: Right now, to me, it is feeling like changes are being made simply for change sake, even though they are not changes that the players are asking for. If you want to make sweeping changes, at least make changes to systems that are being pain points for the community and player base, that address revamps that have been in need of revamps (DD definitely needed one but this revamp seemed like a mini-rework more than a full revamp), or add the content that has been discussed as coming for a while. People definitely like new and shiny but it has to be something that works and fits with the game in a meaningful and impactful way. Archtypes seem to be that but unfortunately 2/3 of the Archtypes didn't quite hit the mark- Sacred Fist and Dark Apostate. And this from a guy who has made it a dedicated point to make DA his main because thematically it's my favorite character in game to date.

TL : DR- I, as I know others are as well, am getting tired of system changes that are made for no other reason than to make changes. I'd rather see updates to events then system overhauls that don't address player feedback and pain points just to make changes. Make changes based on pain points and long standing issues and I'll revise that thought, but it's starting to get a bit taxing and frustrating. It's starting to feel like a grab bag of revamp ideas. Like there's a hat with random topics in it, pull out a piece of paper and whatever they paper says is what gets overhauled next. Completely random.

[droid327]

Its clear that the devs like imbue mechanics - it was part of both DA's and SF's design, and featured in a few other recent updates like the new Legendary feat. I dont mind that they want to simplify and streamline it so that its easier to develop in the future. Anything that makes their job easier means they can deliver more for us, faster, in future updates.

That being said, a change that's implemented for the devs' sake should have minimal player-facing differences, and that's the issue I have with the design as posted, mainly with Inqui being nerfed from orbit (again!) so that they can tweak other builds. They seem to be trying for change-neutrality overall, its just a question of if they actually deliver it with no major edge cases or outliers.

[Aelonwy]

I agree with both of you and find it obtuse that they continually nerf things (in this case Inq) to make room for their new shiny without being fair to what existed before they got their new "bright idea" and aggravating that they won't even engage or debate with players on these issues. They've made up their minds and give us the silent treatment.

[Xezom]

Its clear that the devs like imbue mechanics - it was part of both DA's and SF's design, and featured in a few other recent updates like the new Legendary feat. I dont mind that they want to simplify and streamline it so that its easier to develop in the future. Anything that makes their job easier means they can deliver more for us, faster, in future updates.

That being said, a change that's implemented for the devs' sake should have minimal player-facing differences, and that's the issue I have with the design as posted, mainly with Inqui being nerfed from orbit (again!) so that they can tweak other builds. They seem to be trying for change-neutrality overall, its just a question of if they actually deliver it with no major edge cases or outliers.

Oh i'm definitely an advocate for making systems make more sense for both players and devs. I'm sure it'll help with sorting through the spaghetti that is DDO coding by simplifying each added damage as a Imbue. As you said, it's very clear that they like Imbues as a mechanic, and I don't have an issue with them myself.

I agree with both of you and find it obtuse that they continually nerf things (in this case Inq) to make room for their new shiny without being fair to what existed before they got their new "bright idea" and aggravating that they won't even engage or debate with players on these issues. They've made up their minds and give us the silent treatment.

To both of your points, I don't like it when system overhauls negatively impact existing to make room for what might be or as Aelonwyn said, the "Bright idea" shiny new things. I'd rather see things left numerically identical to what they are currently with a true lateral movement than one with detriments to existing builds.

I guess to me, it still begs the question, why? If it is because of something coming down the road or a system that being developed, would it not make sense to explain to the community what's coming and note that changes like this are in preparation for said system? At least then we'd have some idea of whats going on, and not just feel like changes are being made, just because. This is also only true if the follow through actually happens. Not some hypothetical eventuality that MAY one day come to pass. It needs to be something that is actively in the works and on the development dart board to justify overhauls that negatively impact existing builds so players can see the light at the end of the tunnel as it were.

[jskinner937]

Couldn’t agree more with the OP.

I mentioned this in the imbue overall thread….Why? No response.

I would rather keep our DDO mechanics we are used to and prefer updating class enhancements that need it. Monks, Wizards, maybe rangers for example.

This imbue overall reminds me of the AC pass which made investment into AC worthless unless you are a tank at end game. Dodge was then introduced to help non-tanks. So my question is…are imbues going to be the catalyst to nerf physical damage or at least an excuse to nerf weapon damage. I hope not, because this type of mechanic is going to be boring and likely kill melee viability completely if we have static damage as a big part of our damage profile and without a chance to add crit damage is so unattractive.

Bad designs keep getting pushed. And it takes us further away from PnP. Who is calling for this change?

[Sqrlmonger]

They are nerfing Inquisitive extremely hard and have thus far refused to explain why to anyone who asks (and quite a few people have) about it in the thread.

So no I'm not thrilled about it right now.

The idea isn't bad, just the implementation. I suspect they are concerned about having too many stackable imbue dice and have singled out Inquisitive as the scheduled whipping post.

[helpfulguy1234]

Couldn’t agree more with the OP.

I mentioned this in the imbue overall thread….Why? No response.

I would rather keep our DDO mechanics we are used to and prefer updating class enhancements that need it. Monks, Wizards, maybe rangers for example.

This imbue overall reminds me of the AC pass which made investment into AC worthless unless you are a tank at end game. Dodge was then introduced to help non-tanks. So my question is…are imbues going to be the catalyst to nerf physical damage or at least an excuse to nerf weapon damage. I hope not, because this type of mechanic is going to be boring and likely kill melee viability completely if we have static damage as a big part of our damage profile and without a chance to add crit damage is so unattractive.

Bad designs keep getting pushed. And it takes us further away from PnP. Who is calling for this change?

Some SSG employee who wants to show his boss the shiny new system he created. And he's the only one calling for it.

[thebeast1985]

The only thing that bugs me the most is simple.

It's flat, against all that is D&D and Ddo too.
We like to make weird builds to make our characters flavorful and fun, we like to experiment...
Most of the new overhauls tend to flatten the diversity of the game has to offer.

This is bad in my opinion

[Strider1963]

First of all I want to say that I appreciate the work that dev put into this game. I've always loved DDO and have for a long time. I've been a VIP supporter for many many years now. This post and thread is not about bashing Devs nor the production team. I don't like seeing it. Nor is this thread about pure negativity. I hate hate posts with no constructive feedback or suggestions on how to fix things.

For me, the last few updates and overhauls have given me a bad taste in my mouth. Not because the overhauls are bad per se but because I don't feel like they are actually needed on a priority level. It's my opinion that most, definitely not all, of the overhauls over the last year-maybe two have just been lateral shifts. When I say overhauls I mean things like the Bow/IPS changes, DD changes, and now Imbues and HP changes. While a lot of the PARTS of these systems need to be updated and revamped, the entirety of the system itself doesn't feel like its a major issue. I'll grant that being part of the uninformed mass (which is another issue that needs to be addressed), it makes it difficult to see some of these changes in a positive way without knowing what is "coming down the pipeline" as it were. So far, I've not seen where the balance out from the Bow changes/IPS yet, but maybe I've missed it.

I feel like the Imbue change is a perfect example of change for change sake, but not where it is needed. I don't think I've seen a single post on the forums about how Imbues need to be universal Imbue Die and nonstacking. Anywhere. This is not a pain point for the community at all. There are things about imbues that have been mentioned such as poor scaling the later in the game you go due to lack of access to meaningful increases, but those concerns are not being addressed by this pass. I don't see what the goal of this pass is. From reading the post about it it's supposed to open up new interesting builds, but to me at least, all it does is standardize things. It makes it so that if you want o focus imbues, you'll be focused on ONE imbue rather than having a longer string of numbers for having multiples... and that's about it. If you aren't a character than runs multiple from multiple sources, there is no change at all for you (except maybe some numeric nerfs in the case of inquis). Even the Kings of imbues, EK and AA, aren't really getting much of a change in a positive manner. Most of the changes are just a lateral shift. I posted my feedback on the Lam server saying that AA non-damaging toggles shouldn't be considered Imbues since the Imbue post specifically noted that Imbues are toggles that add damage. It would be cool to be able to use both an ele imbue, and non-damaging toggle since the imbue changes really do nothing for it. With the current Implementation of the Imbue changes, there isn't anything new really happening. No NEW playstyles are being opened up, no NEW effects are being added, no NEW builds are being made possible. Everything in this overhaul is simply taking an existing system, slapping a fresh coat of paint on existing effects and standardizing all added on hit effects into a Imbue toggle and calling it an overhaul. In fact, I would almost argue that it's pigeonholing Imbues into having to be about stacking Imbue Dice from multiple sources. But then again those that were doing that before will continue to do it after the changes, and those that don't already still won't. So what does this change do? Nothing really.



Even with that feedback though, it's not a meaningful enough change to a pain point players have to justify the overhaul. Which leaves me asking, why? Why was it that Imbues of all things were the highest of priorities that they needed a full overhaul? Was there really some catastrophic behind the scenes damage that was being done that made them THAT important to change? I find it hard to believe that with all of the other systems, enhancement trees, classes, and style complaints and issues that have littered the forums for prolonged periods of time that Imbues were the MOST concerning thing to address.

It's been pointed out multiple times, both politely and not, that melee is in need of some serious love as a style. Monks need an overhaul and have for years. Wizards need some loving, especially Arch-mages and force spell users. Artificer and Druid Pet gear (collars) still don't work with their added damage effects and augments. With the release of the revamped epic destinies (which btw was actually one of the recent overhauls that I completely agree needed it and support the way it was done, so great job there), we were told there would be 3 new Epic destinies coming later that support the Artificer, Warlock, and Alchemist. Those have not yet materialized either. You can spend 1 hour on the forums and find enough issues that need to be addressed with classes, styles, enhancements and systems to fill the next 3 major updates with ease.


I guess what I'm saying is this: Right now, to me, it is feeling like changes are being made simply for change sake, even though they are not changes that the players are asking for. If you want to make sweeping changes, at least make changes to systems that are being pain points for the community and player base, that address revamps that have been in need of revamps (DD definitely needed one but this revamp seemed like a mini-rework more than a full revamp), or add the content that has been discussed as coming for a while. People definitely like new and shiny but it has to be something that works and fits with the game in a meaningful and impactful way. Archtypes seem to be that but unfortunately 2/3 of the Archtypes didn't quite hit the mark- Sacred Fist and Dark Apostate. And this from a guy who has made it a dedicated point to make DA his main because thematically it's my favorite character in game to date.

TL : DR- I, as I know others are as well, am getting tired of system changes that are made for no other reason than to make changes. I'd rather see updates to events then system overhauls that don't address player feedback and pain points just to make changes. Make changes based on pain points and long standing issues and I'll revise that thought, but it's starting to get a bit taxing and frustrating. It's starting to feel like a grab bag of revamp ideas. Like there's a hat with random topics in it, pull out a piece of paper and whatever they paper says is what gets overhauled next. Completely random.

I completely agree with this. To quote an old saying: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"