U57 Preview 1: Imbue Overhaul

[Lynnabel]

I don’t know if this has been brought up yet, but is it possible to have the Battle Engineer’s imbue be the same damage type as their Rune Arm Imbue? I think it would be great flavor, tie into that tree’s focus on Rune Arms, and increase the value of having multiple Rune Arms to switch to.
Just a thought, love the changes so far!
-D

That is actually a great idea. I have to wonder if its even feasible to implement, though. Runearms are very tough to get a handle on from the part of the game where most of this script work is working.

Hmmm, I wonder...

Should Runearm imbues add Imbue Dice instead of their separate procs? or...
Should Runearm imbues instead switch the damage type of the Artificer imbue? But that would make it hard to stack spellpower...
Maybe Runearms should switch the imbue type only in certain situations? Or maybe we should build in a separate Feat that allows that switch to take place?

Lots to noodle on.

All of this ultra simplifies Dungeons & Dragons Online in a way that is very at all Dungeons & Dragons.

I cannot see or understand the massive underhood undertaking of nerfing individual dice and the flavor they
give to builds to further pull DDO away from D&D into generic videogame land -

I feel the complete opposite - its very unlike D&D to have unique one-off scaling things that only work in a vacuum and only in narrow cases. There's no pen and paper equivalent for Arcane Archer Bonus Dice, yanno? But it is very D&D to have shared stats that do different things for different builds - the same way that Wisdom means very different things mechanically if you're a Monk versus a Cleric. And it's very D&D to gain abilities that add bonus dice to things. And it's also very D&D to build systems that cause players to go "hmmm I wonder if this build would work well with this multiclass"

[Stravix]

... She has gone completely off the deep end.

------------------------------------------

People have been asking for years to reduce the number toggles, and make the abilities passive.

They add more toggles.

People ask again, when more toggles are added, to NOT add more, and reduce the toggle count.

They add more toggles.

Update 56 was a rampaging dumpster fire, so the GAME was toggled off for awhile there. Grats.

Now they add more toggles, nerf HPs, and break new things for, as it was stated, "excitement".

-----------------------------------------

When exactly did the entire community of people hired to HELP the game, start to hate it so much?

Wow... that's a hot take.

"Oh no, a button I have to hit once in my character's entire life that adds a bunch of build options to the game, whatsoever will I do?"

Also: "nerf HPs" seriously? They stated the goal was to buff HP to melees in a way that isn't the atrocious EDF. For most builds, this is a buff, and has been said specifically that it will be readjusted so that it is a buff to more builds.

Say what you will, but saying that the devs who pour so much into the game, somehow hate the game is low.

[droid327]

Hmmm, I wonder...

Should Runearm imbues add Imbue Dice instead of their separate procs? or...
Should Runearm imbues instead switch the damage type of the Artificer imbue? But that would make it hard to stack spellpower...
Maybe Runearms should switch the imbue type only in certain situations? Or maybe we should build in a separate Feat that allows that switch to take place?

Lots to noodle on.

Yeah it definitely shouldn't force a build into an odd spell power type, or force you into RP scaling

Adding dice would be the easy and elegant solution, but how many dice would that be at L30+? Are you willing to give that many dice for a /2 arti splash? Since you were reticent to make Inqui too powerful for added dice alone...and I wouldn't want it to become a nerf compared to existing imbue damage

I also would caution against giving too many options - that seems like a "best of both worlds" solution, but too many toggles and options increase the complexity of the game and make it less accessible for new players, plus the more moving parts there are the easier it is for something to go wrong and the harder to fix it - that's how you get spaghetti code in the first place

[Stravix]

Yeah it definitely shouldn't force a build into an odd spell power type, or force you into RP scaling

Adding dice would be the easy and elegant solution, but how many dice would that be at L30+? Are you willing to give that many dice for a /2 arti splash? Since you were reticent to make Inqui too powerful for added dice alone...and I wouldn't want it to become a nerf compared to existing imbue damage

I also would caution against giving too many options - that seems like a "best of both worlds" solution, but too many toggles and options increase the complexity of the game and make it less accessible for new players, plus the more moving parts there are the easier it is for something to go wrong and the harder to fix it - that's how you get spaghetti code in the first place

Yeah, might cause more issues than it's worth, sadly.

Definitely something to "noodle" over, but likely something to be considered very carefully.

[Baahb3]

Monk:


Is there a reason that Shintao is not part of this fun system? My guess is this is just for those that have some sort of elemental or other damage type outside of bludgeon. I see a boost for Sacred Fist, so, I gotta do my due diligence and at least stick up for handwrap monks

Thanks!
Nico

Still chewing through this thread but..

Would it be too much to just make the monk stances give an imbue for their relevant element? Then give the punches a +Dice per tier?

Example:
Forms would give you 1d6 Base
Adept would give +1 Dice
Master would give +1 Dice
Grand Master would give +1 Dice

Then Air Punch I would give +1 Dice when used for just that one strike. Air Punch II would give +2 Dice, III +3 and IV +4.

Total if running in GM Wind Stance and punching with Air IV would be 8 dice. Does not seem to be too bad.

This would give the opportunity to add some +dice in Grandmaster of Flowers somewhere

[DRoark]

There's a laundry list of bugs in the game dating back years. If they spend even a fraction of the time fixing that stuff, instead of implementing junk that nobody asked
for, THAT would be game improvement. Most of us would probably drop dead of shock if they stopped an update, and posted, "Hey, we're fixing stuff this year instead!"

..................................

"Oh no, a button I have to hit once in my character's entire life that adds a bunch of build options to the game, whatsoever will I do?"

As it was posted in the past (look it up), the TOGGLES actually caused significant background issues, including lag. People weren't asking that to avoid hitting one button.

THAT, is a hot take.

[Lynnabel]

As it was posted in the past (look it up), the TOGGLES actually caused significant background issues, including lag. People weren't asking that to avoid hitting one button.

THAT, is a hot take.

I'm not quite sure where you could have heard that but it's thankfully not true

[Xezom]

That is actually a great idea. I have to wonder if its even feasible to implement, though. Runearms are very tough to get a handle on from the part of the game where most of this script work is working.

Hmmm, I wonder...

Should Runearm imbues add Imbue Dice instead of their separate procs? or...
Should Runearm imbues instead switch the damage type of the Artificer imbue? But that would make it hard to stack spellpower...
Maybe Runearms should switch the imbue type only in certain situations? Or maybe we should build in a separate Feat that allows that switch to take place?

Lots to noodle on.

I would personally go with options 1 and 2 together. I'm not exactly sure why it would make stacking spell power difficult considering that some/a lot rune arms have the related spell power on them (Ol'Ironsides has Combustion and has fire Imbue, Astral Projector has Radiance and Evil Imbue, Arm of the Archons has Impulse and Force Imbue, etc.).

One consideration to be made is that Arty Splash with -/2 Art would become a lot more popular for the Rune Arm use feat for the "free" Imbue dice from the Rune Arm. It's already something you see now and then but it'd definitely be more common if you gained universal Imbue dice simply for being able to wield a Rune Arm. Possible Work around would be option 3 where you make the ability for your Rune Arm to override or switch your current Imbue as an Artificer Bonus feat that can only be taken at the 4,8,12,etc. progression. this could also be used to Gate the Splashing of Arty as well. Make a Feat that converts your Rune Arm Imbue into Imbue Dice, but only make it an arty bonus feat and only available at 8+

Edit: I would say that IF allowing Rune Arms to change the damage type of your Imbue, that it be an option. Not a mandatory switch. Artyquisitives still like to be able to use Law on your Side, but it would definitely add some flavor if you could choose between an existing Imbue and the Imbue type of your RA.

Edit 2: Another option would be to make Rune Arm Imbues have a scaling factor on them. Something like-

Rune Arm Imbue: Force- Wearing this Rune Arm will Imbue any weapon you wield. You gain +1 Imbue Dice plus an additional 1 Imbue Dice per 5-10 Articifer levels. Additionally, while your Rune Arm Use Feat is toggled on, your weapon is Imbued with 1d6 of Force damage per Imbue dice, scaling with spell power. This effect is exclusive with other Imbues.

[Axcarth]

...Most of us would probably drop dead of shock if they stopped an update, and posted, "Hey, we're fixing stuff this year instead!"

Here's another one who claims to speak for many, making big noise as to get the attention. Speak for yourself. Im very happy with preview and almost every new "shiny" thing devs add into the game. Not that some of the last updates have not been a disaster on implementation (looking at you U56), but still happy to know there are ppl working on the game I like the most.

[LurkingVeteran]

By the way, is anything being done to address that Imbue damage does not scale as well epics?

In particular:
1) Monster flat resistances (e.g. demons/devils..) on reaper reduce the damage before scaling with spell / melee power (iirc). I realize players like this property when it afflicts mobs, but it basically makes any elemental imbue build worthless after L18 or so when you start running into these monsters regularly. This is in addition to the immunities that plague elemental caster builds.
2) Dice does not increase by much in epics. There are a few sources now, but you get 6-9 dice in heroics and much fewer in epics.

I suggest changing the behavior of flat resistances in reaper for mobs (only) and adding more sources of imbue dice in epics if you want to build for it.

Currently the best way to play an imbue build seems to be to splash paladin/DA/bard to get light/sonic dice, or AA to get force dice. It's kind of bad for e.g. wizards EKs though, because they don't synergize well with light damage, and AA is requires a lot of investment (e.g. AP + race/levels). Not sure if it even works with non-bows now.

Finally, it is very unclear what the scaling of SP/MP is with the new system, as well what other requirements it has attached. E.g. paladin has 200% scaling on MP, but what about Bard sonic dice? Does force dice from AA actually work with non-bows now, or is this unchanged?

EDIT: clarity

[misterski]

By the way, is anything being done to address that Imbue damage does not scale as well epics?

In particular:
1) Monster flat resistances (e.g. demons/devils..) on reaper reduce the damage before scaling with spell / melee power (iirc). I realize players like this property when it afflicts mobs, but it basically makes any elemental imbue build worthless after L18 or so when you start running into these monsters regularly. This is in addition to the immunities that plague elemental caster builds.
2) Dice does not increase by much. There are a few sources now, but you get 6-9 dice in heroics and much fewer in epics.

I suggest changing the behavior of flat resistances in reaper for mobs (only) and adding more sources of imbue dice in epics if you want to build for it.

Currently the best way to play an imbue build seems to be to pick a level of paladin to get light dice, or AA to get force dice. It's kind of bad for e.g. wizards EKs though, because they don't synergize well with light damage, and AA is requires a lot of investment (e.g. AP + race/levels). Maybe you could make something out of sonic with bard levels, but it's a big problem in any case.

The light imbue from paladin KotC also scales off of ap/rp so it wouldn't be as useful for EK anyways.

[QuantumFX]

That is actually a great idea. I have to wonder if its even feasible to implement, though. Runearms are very tough to get a handle on from the part of the game where most of this script work is working.

Hmmm, I wonder...

Should Runearm imbues add Imbue Dice instead of their separate procs? or...
Should Runearm imbues instead switch the damage type of the Artificer imbue? But that would make it hard to stack spellpower...
Maybe Runearms should switch the imbue type only in certain situations? Or maybe we should build in a separate Feat that allows that switch to take place?

Lots to noodle on.

If you can't make it work, perhaps Elemental Weapon/Greater Elemental weapons could do the job when someone casts it on themselves?

[LurkingVeteran]

The light imbue from paladin KotC also scales off of ap/rp so it wouldn't be as useful for EK anyways.

Some people build EKs focusing on MP/RP, but it was just an example. You can do the same with DA if you focus on SP.

[DRoark]

Here's another one who claims to speak for many, making big noise as to get the attention. Speak for yourself. Im very happy with preview and almost every new "shiny" thing devs add into the game. Not that some of the last updates have not been a disaster on implementation (looking at you U56), but still happy to know there are ppl working on the game I like the most.

I didn't realize one line that a small group of people see was that noisy, but OK. Roll with it, you need a win.

We hear people every day in game and chat, talking about "X is broken" You don't think every one of them (more than Many!) wouldn't want the stuff they talk about daily, you know... fixed?
Do they try? Sure, but SSG has a recent habit of cranking out "shiny and almost-working". That's not speculation, everyone can see it happening. U56 was the recent DF. Repairs are needed.

[LurkingVeteran]

As an aside, I wonder if this means that the best blaster warlock build is now ES with all extra sources of Imbue dice you can scrounge up. You get 4 from the tree, 4 from epic feats, 2 from equipment, and drow racial get 2, or you can go racial AA for another 8, but it loses crit from TS so maybe not wise to go that deep. In epics most warlock DPS probably comes from SLAs anyway, but for straight up sustained DPS with EB, TS+ES+Drow/AA seems like substantially more DPS than TS+SE now (at least if you have racial AP).

@slarden, go test this :-)

I'm not sure if the EB imbue damage procs have some target limit like ½elf used to have though. That would make it much worse than it looks.

[TueNictGut]

-Make c4 poisoned darts more useful by adding poisondmg per imbue dice and/or a short period of paralyze(paralyzing poison), it could also add an imbue dice
- t4 deadly exploits for 6 ap is broken according to wiki. Maybe change it to remove poison for a stun/paralyzing inducing helplessness
-T5 Touch of Death which is totally useless in epic due to bad scaling , could be a magic poison attack amplified by ninja poison, imbue dice and Mp.
Alternatively it could be an opener Sneak attack, that induces a significant number of poison stacks and cancels immunity to poison and do some poisondmg on a successful sneak attack.
-t5 deadly strike like suggested before, add multiplyer at least for melee, to open meleeninja for multiclassing.

-I would also really like the possibility to select an additional effect for the poison, that you can change: like reducing saves on vorpal, reducing hp% at vorpal or silence at vorpal. So if u have the first poison toggeled, and the enemy has a stack of ninja poison, his saves are reduced by x. on a vorpal strike.

Imagine it like a much more elegant version of the assassins poisonstrikes
Different poisons could be added to ninjutsu or sneak attack enhancemnts. Could also be a fitting for assassintree

[TueNictGut]

Deleted, cause of unintentional doublepost

[Atronos_The_Titan]

-Make c4 poisoned darts more useful by adding poisondmg per imbue dice and/or a short period of paralyze(paralyzing poison)
- t4 deadly exploits for 6 ap is broken according to wiki. Maybe change it to remove poison for a stun/paralyzing inducing helplessness
T5 Touch of Death which is totally useless in epic due to bad scaling , could be a magic poison attack amplified by ninja poison and Mp.
Alternatively it could be an opener Sneak attack, that induces a significant number of poison stacks and cancels immunity to poison and do some poisondmg on a successful sneak attack.

I would also like the possibility to select an additional effect for the poison, that you can change: like reducing saves on vorpal, reducing hp% at vorpal or silence at vorpal. So if u have the first poison toggeled, and the enemy has a stack of ninja poison, his saves are reduced by x. Different poisons could be added to ninjutsu or sneak attack enhancemnts. Could also be a fitting for assassintree

I second this, maybe give each monk stance feat you have: adept,master, grandmaster give 1 dice each. I'd like to see ninja spy get some more dice from the cores as well if anything, or maybe in the tree itself like for each poison finisher you have.

[Mindos]

Isn't plain elf the bow typical tree? Was does half-elf get the bonus die? What about wood elf?

[Coffey]

Finally, it is very unclear what the scaling of SP/MP is with the new system, as well what other requirements it has attached. E.g. paladin has 200% scaling on MP, but what about Bard sonic dice? Does force dice from AA actually work with non-bows now, or is this unchanged?

EDIT: clarity

Seems to me you choose a toggle and it works as designed with any weapons and the other Dice come along for the ride.

Seems that AA enchanted toggles are separate and are on their own as a CC option for Bows.

Not so clear