U57 Preview 1: Imbue Overhaul

[Shadez]

Kensai should definitely be getting an imbue, call it Battle Mastery dice or something, even if it does some form of physical dps (match weapon? who cares).

Let them be good at swinging.

[Xgya]

So only one imbue at a time now.

Can you make it so Embodiment of Law also adds dice? It was a feat I liked taking on my Inquisitives, and now it looks like it does absolutely nothing for them anymore. It gives them a copy of an imbue they already effectively had.

It also looks like an outright nerf to pure warlocks, that used to have a scaling 3d4 and now get 1d6. I also saw no mention of Celestial Spirit, which is the OTHER source of light damage on Eldritch Blasts ES Warlocks get. Is that one just staying the same?

By comparison, pure wizard EKs move from 7d12 (avg 45) to 10d8 (avg 45). So they lose out on a few feats and abilities that granted extra die (since extra dies are 1d8s), but this opens up new builds ad doesn't shoehorn EKs into pure class because of just how much was lost from not having the capstone, which keeps it interesting.

The change to helf warlock is interesting though. Opens up one more race for damage-dealing casters.

[Lynnabel]

So only one imbue at a time now.

Can you make it so Embodiment of Law also adds dice? It was a feat I liked taking on my Inquisitives, and now it looks like it does absolutely nothing for them anymore. It gives them a copy of an imbue they already effectively had.

It also looks like an outright nerf to pure warlocks, that used to have a scaling 3d4 and now get 1d6. I also saw no mention of Celestial Spirit, which is the OTHER source of light damage on Eldritch Blasts ES Warlocks get. Is that one just staying the same?

By comparison, pure wizard EKs move from 7d12 (avg 45) to 10d8 (avg 45). So they lose out on a few feats and abilities that granted extra die (since extra dies are 1d8s), but this opens up new builds ad doesn't shoehorn EKs into pure class because of just how much was lost from not having the capstone, which keeps it interesting.

The change to helf warlock is interesting though. Opens up one more race for damage-dealing casters.

You're the 40th person to mention Embodiment of Law so yes, yes, I'll take a look at it.

You're right that the ES Major Form needs something to replace its 3d6. It can't become an Imbue because its a Major Form. It can grant +3 imbue dice, though. So before: 3d6 + 3d4 = 10.5 + 7.5 = 18 av light damage, after: 4d6 = 14 av light damage BUT it applies to attacks and blasts instead of just blasts and you can further increase this through feats/EDs/other trees/gear.

[Yamato-San]

I don't really understand how this will work with different damage types / multiple imbues, can someone explain it to me please?

Let's assume a lvl 20 Alchemist build running as a full Inquisitor with Vile Chemist and Greater Elemental Weapons active.
Inquisitor 12d8 Law
20 Vile Chemist: 6d6 Poison
Greater Elemental Weapons 3d6 Fire
--------
current imbue damage: 12d8 Law + 6d6 Poison + 3d6 Fire = 21 dice


new:
Inquisitor 7d8 Law ( 1d8 Law + 6 Dice ) [why this nerf?]
20 Vile Chemist: 6d6 Poison (1d6 Poison + 5 Dice)
Greater Elemental Weapons 3d6 Fire (1d6 Fire + 3 Dice) OR (3d6 Fire + 3 Dice)
---
+14 Dice

And now I'm lost with the outcome:
stacking Law+Poison+Fire: 15d8 Law + 15d6 Poison + 15d6 Fire = 45 Dice
or
stacking Law+Poison: 15d8 Law + 15d6 Poison + 1d6 Fire = 31 dice
or
exclusive Toggle to Law: 15d8 Law + 1d6 Fire = 16 dice
or
exclusive Toggle to Poison: 15d6 Poison + 1d6 Fire = 16 dice

Thanks in advance for an answer.

[Duhboy]

So FB barbs hurt themselves on every swing again with this **** of a update. I remember you devs tried this change before and it was a disaster because the backlash damage was scaling that it was killing barbs so you had to remove that part of it. Now you want to add it back in? Don't you guys learn from past mistakes?

Also to note that having mechanics that when you hit mobs you hurt yourself as with the new frenzy toggle on imbue is idiotic (thanks for removing the strength part of frenzy btw I'm sure that was OP >.>) especially in high end reaper. Nobody is going to be using it.

Especially since the damage from the new frenzy toggle is so meager doing a whooping 30-something damage with a 350 melee power in exchange of hurting yourself per enemy hit. Um no that's stupid and weak even by barbarian standards.



Removing the pain touch damage for a measly +10 melee power (if you took PT 1 & 2) is also an idiotic move.
PT bane damage that scales with melee power > +10 melee power.

[vryxnr]

You're the 40th person to mention Embodiment of Law so yes, yes, I'll take a look at it.

Heh, yeah, the Embodiment of Law/Chaos was the first big eyebrow-raise I has as well. Old version just added a bit of extra damage, new version is a toggle that replaces/competes with other imbues, making them useless feats for everyone except fighters who don't get imbues.

Unless I'm missing / misinterpreting something of course. Seems like they're becoming feats to add a new damage type to your toggles instead of simply increasing your damage like they used to be.

[Lynnabel]

I don't really understand how this will work with different damage types / multiple imbues, can someone explain it to me please?

Let's assume a lvl 20 Alchemist build running as a full Inquisitor with Vile Chemist and Greater Elemental Weapons active.
Inquisitor 12d8 Law
20 Vile Chemist: 6d6 Poison
Greater Elemental Weapons 3d6 Fire
--------
current imbue damage: 12d8 Law + 6d6 Poison + 3d6 Fire = 21 dice


new:
Inquisitor 7d8 Law ( 1d8 Law + 6 Dice ) [why this nerf?]
20 Vile Chemist: 6d6 Poison (1d6 Poison + 5 Dice)
Greater Elemental Weapons 3d6 Fire (1d6 Fire + 3 Dice) OR (3d6 Fire + 3 Dice)
---
+14 Dice

And now I'm lost with the outcome:
stacking Law+Poison+Fire: 15d8 Law + 15d6 Poison + 15d6 Fire = 45 Dice
or
stacking Law+Poison: 15d8 Law + 15d6 Poison + 1d6 Fire = 31 dice
or
exclusive Toggle to Law: 15d8 Law + 1d6 Fire = 16 dice
or
exclusive Toggle to Poison: 15d6 Poison + 1d6 Fire = 16 dice

Thanks in advance for an answer.

There's a lot to break down here, starting with Elemental Weapons. Unlike the other two listed, Elemental Weapons is just a flat 3d6 damage scaling with nothing. So it's not numerically comperable in the same way to a scaling imbue like Inquisitive or EK since its only ever going to be 3-18 damage.

In the new system, you'll need to pick between your Inquisitive imbue or your Vile Chemist imbue. However, the dice you gain in either tree (or anywhere else) will work with whichever one you pick. So, since both are 1d8...

You'll end up with 1d8 base + 10 dice from Vile Chemist (6 from leveling, 4 from other cores) + 6 from Inquisitive + 2 alchemical bonus from Elemental weapons means that you'll be doing 19d8 damage of your choice of Law or Poison. 19d8 = 85.5 average damage. Before you were doing 54 from Inq (12 * 4.5) and 21 from vile chemist (6 * 3.5) which makes 75 average damage, plus the nonscaling 3d6. Another big thing to keep in mind is that with this you can gain bonus dice from more sources, such as gear or filigrees, which further increases the damage of the new flow.

[Epicsoul]

My Artificer is rather excited about these changes. It's a fun mechanic that I look forward to playing around with. The only feedback I'd request at this point is additional dice increases in the EDs. With so many builds having access to imbues now, it would be cool to have other options besides Draconic to increase it. This might be too strong, but adding 1 dice to the cores instead might could work.

Good work!

[Phoenicis]

You're the 40th person to mention Embodiment of Law so yes, yes, I'll take a look at it.

You're right that the ES Major Form needs something to replace its 3d6. It can't become an Imbue because its a Major Form. It can grant +3 imbue dice, though. So before: 3d6 + 3d4 = 10.5 + 7.5 = 18 av light damage, after: 4d6 = 14 av light damage BUT it applies to attacks and blasts instead of just blasts and you can further increase this through feats/EDs/other trees/gear.

So a straight up warlock nerf since now you MUST go outside the warlock trees to find some dice to make up what you lost...

[Firebreed]

- I would like to see more Dice in other ED's besides DI

- The Racial imbues look weak considering imbues are exclusive; not sure who would use them in their current state.

- Regarding "Filigree Set Bonuses that used to give a scaling imbue on-hit now give +1 Dice": Wreath of Flame and Frozen Wanderer used to also give 50 Fire/Cold spellpower besides the on-hit procs (at the same tier). I hope those stay alongside the +1 Imbue Die.

- On Lamannia, my "Bonus Imbue Dice" on the character sheet wouldn't update from 0 to X until I respecced whatever it was that grants me said dice. Not sure if you can do anything about it.

[Lynnabel]

So a straight up warlock nerf since now you MUST go outside the warlock trees to find some dice to make up what you lost...

Well, it really depends. I am assuming that if you're going core 18 into ES then you're using the ES aura instead of cone/chain, which means that 3d6 of the previous on-hit that only applied to blasts now applies to your melee strikes as well, and melees tend to hit a lot faster than once every 2 seconds. I suppose if you are in ES but don't hit people with weapons and don't want to take any feats or use any gear or take any ED abilities that relate to bonus imbue dice then yes, you'll be doing less damage with your imbue than you were doing before with those procs.

[Zeklijan]

What will happen to the alchemist's Burning Ambition die from the bombardier tree? Currently, we are getting 5d4 at cap that scales with spell power based on the element of the spell cast.

[vryxnr]

Well, it really depends. I am assuming that if you're going core 18 into ES then you're using the ES aura instead of cone/chain, which means that 3d6 of the previous on-hit that only applied to blasts now applies to your melee strikes as well, and melees tend to hit a lot faster than once every 2 seconds. I suppose if you are in ES but don't hit people with weapons and don't want to take any feats or use any gear or take any ED abilities that relate to bonus imbue dice then yes, you'll be doing less damage with your imbue than you were doing before with those procs.

I don't know about everyone else, but my standard rotation for ES warlocks (and what I've seen) is Mass Hold/Tentacles, jump into middle of CC'ed enemies, Eldritch Burst, Spirit Blast, Energy Burst (from Draconic ED), re-cast crowd control spells, repeat until everything is dead. Throwing an actual melee attack instead of spells and SLAs is very, very rare. Probably why most posters are not considering melee attacks on an aura-lock as a worthwhile trade-off.

[Lynnabel]

What will happen to the alchemist's Burning Ambition die from the bombardier tree? Currently, we are getting 5d4 at cap that scales with spell power based on the element of the spell cast.

That is actually staying exactly the same.

[Wahnsinnig]

Would it not be easier to just remove all this, then reduce monster HP by a corresponding amount?

[Duhboy]

That is actually staying exactly the same.

Yes because why nerf them when you can nerf everything else. Sounds like good business practice

[BigSlugger]

You're the 40th person to mention Embodiment of Law so yes, yes, I'll take a look at it.

I'd like to be the 41st person to mention that Embodiment of Law/Chaos need something else to be worthwhile.

I'm also concerned that the Frenzied Berserker backlash damage can stack up way too quickly.

Any consideration for adding more extra imbue dice options into more destinies (exclusive with Arcane Spellsword and each other)?

[Drinkfist]

There's a lot to break down here, starting with Elemental Weapons. Unlike the other two listed, Elemental Weapons is just a flat 3d6 damage scaling with nothing. So it's not numerically comperable in the same way to a scaling imbue like Inquisitive or EK since its only ever going to be 3-18 damage.

In the new system, you'll need to pick between your Inquisitive imbue or your Vile Chemist imbue. However, the dice you gain in either tree (or anywhere else) will work with whichever one you pick. So, since both are 1d8...

You'll end up with 1d8 base + 10 dice from Vile Chemist (6 from leveling, 4 from other cores) + 6 from Inquisitive + 2 alchemical bonus from Elemental weapons means that you'll be doing 19d8 damage of your choice of Law or Poison. 19d8 = 85.5 average damage. Before you were doing 54 from Inq (12 * 4.5) and 21 from vile chemist (6 * 3.5) which makes 75 average damage, plus the nonscaling 3d6. Another big thing to keep in mind is that with this you can gain bonus dice from more sources, such as gear or filigrees, which further increases the damage of the new flow.

You didn't mention weapon restrictions for Law dice being Light/Heavy non-repeating crossbows.

Do the imbues still have weapon restrictions such as the Arcane Archer imbues require a bow and Apostate requiring Favored weapons? I also thought Spellsword required a melee weapon but might be mistaken.

If the objective is to hunt down imbues with damage types you want and bundle the damage dice into a single source then could you do something like Ranger/Alch using Vile Chemist to get dice but throw force darts from the Arcane Archer imbune? Or in your above example could I use Darts with Law on your side Imbune?

[vryxnr]

Would it not be easier to just remove all this, then reduce monster HP by a corresponding amount?

Probably not because the backlash would also be immense. Remember the stat squish? People were freaking out. Yeah we survived, but many players left and never came back... but the backlash from a core mechanics change that will see many builds improve but a few possibly nerfed - while it (backlash) WILL exist regardless - it will not be as intense and probably not cost as many players leaving the game as "remove all this, then reduce monster HP (perceived nerf despite being equalized)" would cause.

(hopefully this update gets fully tested before going live to minimize potential bugs)

[Lynnabel]

Would it not be easier to just remove all this, then reduce monster HP by a corresponding amount?

No.