U57 Preview 1: Imbue Overhaul

[Yamani]

Not sure if it was mentioned but can Shadow weapons from Night revels clickies also be changed to give: +1 Alchemical(or Festive) dice imbue?

[Epicsoul]

Yes, the filigree sets still give their spellpower, its just the on-hit part that's getting swapped out. I think adding more dice elsewhere in the EDs is a fine idea, any ideas where it'd go?

Shiradi seems like a natural fit. Maybe T1 Wild Magic could give +1 dice for the third tier instead of the spellpower? Hail of Blows in GMoF fits as well for a +1 dice, though it's already a powerful ability. Shadowdancer also has a few good options: (1) Grim Precision or Dance in the Dark could be multi selector for +1, 2, and 3 dice.

[Artos_Fabril]

Ranger:

• (Ranger - Tempest) 1d8 Electric, melee or ranged power
• (Ranger - Arcane Archer) 1d8 Fire/Cold/Acid/Electric, appropriate Spell Power (they get all 4 elements, pick one)
• (Ranger - Arcane Archer) 1d8 Force, force spellpower
• (Arcane Archer) Tiers 2, 3, 4, and 5 grant +2 Dice each
• Note: All other primary Arcane Archer imbues are also now imbues in this system.

Looking forward to seeing a lot more elves running around than we've had in a long while.

[Neo-Masamune]

I only play Arcane Archer!

Will I be still be able to pick TWO elements instead of ONLY ONE?

My gear and build is focused on eletric and ice arrows, to change when needed...

Please dont make me pick only one!

Edit: And i use AA ELF TREE! ALWAYS!

[TheMaxpower]

Inquisitive does not need another nerf. Good grief. Enough is enough with that. Alchemists, on the other hand, are extremely OP at end game and are clearly an outlier for the reasons stated above.

[nobodynobody1426]

Quick MATH POST apropos of nothing since I think it will facilitate discussion:

On Shiradi:

Right now it does 7d77, after it will do 7d77 + 1d77 per 7 imbue dice. so each bonus imbue dice adds approx 5.5 damage to the base of 269.5 damage, or just about a 2% increase. players can get approx 25 dice at max if you're moderately working for it, so that means 21 x 2% = a 42% buff to shiradi mantle dps (assuming a moderate imbue dice build). And if you've hit the 28 dice threshold, this is a 28 x 2% = a 56% buff to shiradi (max dice imbue build).

On Total Dice:

The Kotc example is a great one to explore because I find its a great example of how this system is easier to explore into than it was before. Say you're a pure paladin and want to add bonus light damage.

Before: 7d6 light damage

After: 1d6 light damage + 5 dice from kotc + 1 from epic feats + 3 from scion feat + 3 from filigree + 1 from augment + 2 from elemental weapons + 3 from draconic + 1 from offhand versatility + 3 from set bonus + 2 from Drow = 25d6 light damage. And yes, not all pure paladins are drow Single Weapon Fighters with an Orb in Draconic running with an artificer friend and wearing that set bonus - but it's likely that you'll be able to pick up some of these dice from somewhere if not all of them. And if you want to multiclass, other trees have great low-hanging bonus dice to dip into. The big difference here isn't even about total dice this or damage that - its that now as a paladin you can think about this vector of character building and put together something that meets your needs.

Anyway, the nature of this chance means that we're gonna be doing a lot of math, so if you're confused about how this shakes out let us know and I'll post more math.

This is disingenuous at best, before it was 7D6 light and possibly 12D6 * 2xMP law, after is 6D6 light period. All that other stuff requires reducing DPS significantly and taking poor choices. There is a limited number of AP / EP, feat slots, gear slots and filigree slots, telling folks that nerfing themselves by wasting those slots is somehow "better" is gaslighting.

Standardizing imbues like from AA, EK, Warlock and even Inquisitive is understandable, going scorched earth on classes that don't even associate with imbues is just more nerfing.

[ivorycoaster]

Yes, the filigree sets still give their spellpower, its just the on-hit part that's getting swapped out. I think adding more dice elsewhere in the EDs is a fine idea, any ideas where it'd go?[/QUOTE]

Fatesinger is a fantastic home for new dice. Probably shiradi as well. t5 divine crusader. I am sure others could come up with some other ideas.

Reasons: Fatesinger is a great option because bards are now getting imbue dice, and fatesinger is the home tree of bards. It is also a go-to tree for EK. Would be fantastic to get some flexibility by going somewhere other than draconic for imbue dice

Shiradi is a tree with a stance that is impacted majorly by said imbue dice, and also the ideal home for arcane archers. I think it's another good option for imbue dice.

T5 Divine crusader, with it's attachment to embodiment of law, is another great option.

GMOF is a bit fluffy in the middle tiers, I think there might be some opportunity there as well.

I am not even gonna lie. This is the best change you guys have made since the destiny update and yet might be even better. This strengthens the best part of the game; character building. THANK YOU!!!!

[Artos_Fabril]

GMOF is a bit fluffy in the middle tiers, I think there might be some opportunity there as well.

+1 imbue die on each rank 3 elemental stance enhancement?

[Lotoc]

Directionally I think a lot of this update can be interesting, both for a melee survivability boost, and potentially for imbuement re-balancing *if done elegantly- treating the different imbuement caster classes differently in order to create some balance*.

My only question is do the designers and developers understand that there are fundamentally unbalanced designs atm between some of the classes, and even within the different imbuement classes?
For example Alchemists, which I love playing, are admittedly unusually OP compared to every class in the game right now, in several key ways including imbuements: several cores give +2 DCs, Evasion, Healing, Elemental dmg bypass, and Spell Crits -all in a single build, why would any end game caster chose any other class with so many tools available to Alchemists?

Conversely EK are interesting in concept but nobody really plays them at end game and has not for years because they are very Under powered at the moment.

The need to attract new players is great, though this should be at the entry levels while moderated at end game to avoid balance issues for advanced players that can take advantage of the fundamental design imbalances. Make it easy to on-board new while limiting the impacts of those at end game, while treating UP Imbuement classes differently than OP Imbuement classes is my recommendation. One imbuement each for alchemists yes, and then correspondingly amp up the imbuements for EKs, maybe even warlocks at this point, as well as DC casters who are badly nerfed by DW mobs and bosses (or create an AOE mass dispel magic spell that does not nerf the party? or perhaps break enchantment that simply dispells Mob DW as well to create some equivalent to elemental dmg bypass?) - augmenting the lower end caster classes at same time to achieve the desired balance and class options.

This pass could in theory address both the extremely OP Alchemist builds (making them more interesting by forcing more decisions in how to build instead of backing up the truck for their enhancement trees), as well as augmenting the very UP EK and DC-based builds by re-balancing Imbuements thoughtfully (limiting the former and augmenting the later to achieve that balance). I hope the Devs can achieve that desired and elusive balance with this update.

Imbues for EK and VC are fundamentally a melee thing, secondarily ranged.
Next to nobody plays VC and EK has dps so high since the ED revamp you get people saying it should be nerfed, in fact EK is probably why the entire imbue overhaul is being done because they have so many on hit effects they can singlehandedly lag an entire raid.
Just because Alchemist is a top tier caster doesn't mean Vile Chemist is a problem, in fact it's notoriously squishy and inferior to EK.

[Nugaot]

Cleric:

• (Dark Apostate Tier 1) 1d6 Evil damage, evil spellpower
• (Warpriest Tier 4) 1d6 Fire damage, fire spellpower - replaces t4 active attack
• (Warpriest) Core 2, 4, 5 grant +1 Dice
• (Warpriest T5) Wrathful Weapons now grants +3 dice instead of its separate proc, and turns your Fire imbue to Light for the duration
• (Dark Apostate) Tiers 2, 3, 4 grant +1 Dice
• (Dark Apostate) Tier 5 grants +2 Dice
• (Dark Apostate) Core 3, 5, 6 grant +1 Dice

I am hoping this is a typo or oversight? DA dice scaling on negative spellpower but dealing evil damage made playing a hybrid DA feasible, and it was neat to deal damage and heal with the same spellpower. Mostly only caster clerics will want to slot alignment sp/crit, which a hybrid like dark apostate has no use for.

[Lynnabel]

I am hoping this is a typo or oversight? DA dice scaling on negative spellpower but dealing evil damage made playing a hybrid DA feasible, and it was neat to deal damage and heal with the same spellpower. Mostly only caster clerics will want to slot alignment sp/crit, which a hybrid like dark apostate has no use for.

The imbue has always ever scaled with Evil Alignment spell power aka Light, but that brings up a pretty good point that I think would make the entire game a little bit more cohesive:

Should negative spellpower take over governing Chaos and Evil damage instead of Light spellpower?

This would mean that the current spell power schema is:

• Light: also Good and lawful
• Negative: also evil and chaos
• Repair: also rust
• Force: also physical

[Neo-Masamune]

Can you answer my early post Lynnabel please?

[Lotoc]

The imbue has always ever scaled with Evil Alignment spell power aka Light, but that brings up a pretty good point that I think would make the entire game a little bit more cohesive:

Should negative spellpower take over governing Chaos and Evil damage instead of Light spellpower?

This would mean that the current spell power schema is:

• Light: also Good and lawful
• Negative: also evil and chaos
• Repair: also rust
• Force: also physical

Honestly, it's an awkward situation.
Dark Apostates would love the change (except for the fact they lack higher end evil/chaos spells) but warlocks would absolutely hate it, and to be honest warlocks by design are currently the main class to use chaos and evil damage. Would it be feasible to give all evil/chaos a higher of nullification/radiance?

[Odin_Redbeard]

The imbue has always ever scaled with Evil Alignment spell power aka Light, but that brings up a pretty good point that I think would make the entire game a little bit more cohesive:

Should negative spellpower take over governing Chaos and Evil damage instead of Light spellpower?

This would mean that the current spell power schema is:

• Light: also Good and lawful
• Negative: also evil and chaos
• Repair: also rust
• Force: also physical

This seems like a good idea. Please don't nerf this entire idea when someone posts that this seems overpowered and askes for all dice to be D4 or some other crazy idea.

[Nugaot]

The imbue has always ever scaled with Evil Alignment spell power aka Light, but that brings up a pretty good point that I think would make the entire game a little bit more cohesive:

Should negative spellpower take over governing Chaos and Evil damage instead of Light spellpower?

This would mean that the current spell power schema is:

• Light: also Good and lawful
• Negative: also evil and chaos
• Repair: also rust
• Force: also physical

Oh snap, *I* was the oversight! I was wondering why no one else was worried about that. I've literally been playing DA since u56 launched, too. Guess I should try reading what my abilities do sometime?

I like adding evil/chaos damage to negative spellpower. Would it still also affect poison spellpower? Either way I am left feeling a little bit sorry for positive spellpower as it doesn't have a way to be used for damaging spells. (unless you're a swim cleric?)

[ivorycoaster]

Important question! Will the proc dmg from the scions be removed as well?

[Nothingtoseehere]

Warlock:

• (Enlightened Spirit Tier 4) 1d6 Light, Light spell power (ALSO APPLIES TO ELDRITCH BLASTS, no other toggle does this)
• (Enlightened Spirit Core 5) +3 bonus dice while in Celestial Spirit form

Can the +3 bonus dice on Celestial Spirit form be a passive effect rather than requiring the stance to be active. I never turn on Celestial Spirit on my aura warlocks due to it being a major form and therefore incimpatible with other options, or just plain don't use due to the stance containing featherfall.

[Nothingtoseehere]

The imbue has always ever scaled with Evil Alignment spell power aka Light, but that brings up a pretty good point that I think would make the entire game a little bit more cohesive:

Should negative spellpower take over governing Chaos and Evil damage instead of Light spellpower?

This would mean that the current spell power schema is:

• Light: also Good and lawful
• Negative: also evil and chaos
• Repair: also rust
• Force: also physical

Sounds cool in theory, off the top of my head there would be some concern regarding the Synergy between Enlightened Spirit Light spellpower and Utterdark Blast (though my warlock is Abyssal at this time so neg scaling is fine for me).

If changing it up, what if they governed the following:

• Light: also Lawful and Chaotic
• Negative: also Evil
• Positive: also Good

[Fisto_Mk_I]

Yes, the filigree sets still give their spellpower, its just the on-hit part that's getting swapped out.

Let's see:

Currently, filigree sets like Wrath of the Flame or Reverberation, have 16d6 appropriate non-scaling on-hit damage at CL32, 56 average. After U57, it be only +1 imbue dice? Really?!

Seems as huge... tremendous nerf for me. Of course, if it will be +1 dice per Epic/Legendary lvl... it will be... acceptable, i think...

[Monkey_Archer]

Can all imbue toggles be active at once or are some exclusive?