U57 Preview 1: Imbue Overhaul

[Anurakh]

This is how I am feeling right now.

with a moderate investment in racial points
by taking a scion feat
by changing gear to get specific sets
by changing filigree sets
by swapping augments
by multiclassing
by changing to this race
by going into Draconic ED

Yes, you can get more out of this proposed Imbue system, IF you are willing and wanting to change the very nature of your character.

For those that chase the numbers, this might not be a problem, for others, this is just a kick in the face. A change for the sake of change.

Yes, the truth is that there is a nerf in the inquisitive, a nerf that can be compensated for certain builds, but not for all. At least not without major changes in builds, and what certain people here on the forums and apparently all devs don't seem to understand is that some of us are tired of making forced respecs of our characters due to continual nerfs and major changes. Very, very tired.

[Stravix]

That said, I'm more worried about losing T5 where I get the same damage (d8) for all alignments than losing dice, which I already have plans for (my own realistic plans, not like yours, which are unreal to no more). Early on, Lynnabel put a 1d6 imbue on the inquisitive, I see that has changed it back to 1d8 (thanks for listening to our concerns!), but it's not clear to me what about the T5 options that change the die. Can you confirm them, Lynnabel, please?

Typically, they mention changes like that. As such, Jaded is likely staying as is (dice size), but getting an extra dice as mentioned in the OP.

"Tier 5 multiselector grants +1 dice each except for 1 grants +2"

Since that is the only mention of it in the notes, we can assume that the only difference is that the options now grant imbue dice (verbiage change) and Jaded now grants a dice when it did not before.

[ivorycoaster]

I'm not going to multiclass with the classes you want just because you want, it's MY build. And my build works perfectly now on live. So the ideal is that the new system leaves me at an operational level just as functional as it is now WITHOUT MAJOR CHANGES.

That said, I'm not worried about losing those 5 dice, but rather I said that your examples are completely idiotic. You are proposing a particular (and bad) race that would require TR, a non-ranged ED that would involve spending a lot of points just for the imbue, the spell elemental weapons is not available to all classes (and on some occasions, it means the losing the use of deadly, another loss), and taking new gear, feats and so on means losing the options you currently have in the build, it's not a net gain, so your example is INADEQUATE. You can list if you want options that there are to increase the dice, but you have not done that, you have put an example in which your options suppose more losses than benefits for the build. Changing my build to recover the gains and losing my current options, not to gain additionally, IS NOT A NEUTRAL CHANGE.

Next time, give realistic examples, or don't answer. Or at least don't be ****ed if someone tell you that your examples are totally unrealistic and counterproductive.

That said, I'm more worried about losing T5 where I get the same damage (d8) for all alignments than losing dice, which I already have plans for (my own realistic plans, not like yours, which are unreal to no more). Early on, Lynnabel put a 1d6 imbue on the inquisitive, I see that has changed it back to 1d8 (thanks for listening to our concerns!), but it's not clear to me what about the T5 options that change the die. Can you confirm them, Lynnabel, please?

I think you're just looking for a fight and being pointlessly argumentative/combative. I am not saying you have to do all of these things. There is nothing idiotic about pointing out potential. You are completely missing the point of what I posted, which is that if you take even just a few of these options, you will end up with a net benefit to your dice count. Work on your comprehension skills. These are all realistic examples. The game has always changed, since the beginning. People always get upset when their exact build gets changed, they come on this forum and complain mercilessly and the changes still happen. So get creative and adapt, make your build better, or don't, I don't really care.

[Anurakh]

I think you're just looking for a fight and being pointlessly argumentative/combative. I am not saying you have to do all of these things. There is nothing idiotic about pointing out potential. You are completely missing the point of what I posted, which is that if you take even just a few of these options, you will end up with a net benefit to your dice count. Work on your comprehension skills. These are all realistic examples. The game has always changed, since the beginning. People always get upset when their exact build gets changed, they come on this forum and complain mercilessly and the changes still happen. So get creative and adapt, make your build better, or don't, I don't really care.

I have not the slightest desire to fight. But you can't deny that almost all the options you mentioned required losing current build options, which is a loss. And proposing major changes to compensate for a nerf remains unrealistic and inconsiderate of the concerns of those who are being hurt by this update. On the other hand, to criticize people saying "be creative and adapt", you better shut up and let us discuss our concerns with the devs. You're not helping at all, just putting shears.

In other words, your next example had better compare apples to apples, not apples to watermelons.

[ivorycoaster]

This is how I am feeling right now.

with a moderate investment in racial points
by taking a scion feat
by changing gear to get specific sets
by changing filigree sets
by swapping augments
by multiclassing
by changing to this race
by going into Draconic ED

Yes, you can get more out of this proposed Imbue system, IF you are willing and wanting to change the very nature of your character.

For those that chase the numbers, this might not be a problem, for others, this is just a kick in the face. A change for the sake of change.

First of all, I don't recommending doing ALL these things. Just sharing obvious options that most seem to be overlooking. Second, this is a major mechanics change that looks to benefit a bunch of different playstyles. That is not change for the sake of change. If you don't expect to have to make some minor adjustments in order to take advantage, then sorry about your luck. I get it, you are happy exactly where your build is at, but you might be happier if you make it better. I personally don't like inquisitive because it feels substantially weaker to other ranged options. Low floor, low ceiling. Yet I have seen people run r10 on their inquis builds all the way to 156 reaper points just plinking away and kiting. It will all be ok. This is a universal tree. Most people already run some rogue levels for sneak dice, trapping, and evasion. For 10ap and 2 rogue levels you can now get 2 sneak dice, 3 imbue dice trapping and evasion, so if you weren't already taking at least 2 rogue levels, consider it a very good low investment option. I am just trying to help people mitigate their losses and get a net benefit. You can take that however you want.

[Anurakh]

Typically, they mention changes like that. As such, Jaded is likely staying as is (dice size), but getting an extra dice as mentioned in the OP.

"Tier 5 multiselector grants +1 dice each except for 1 grants +2"

Since that is the only mention of it in the notes, we can assume that the only difference is that the options now grant imbue dice (verbiage change) and Jaded now grants a dice when it did not before.

I hope so, but I would like a confirmation from Lynn. I've had very little time lately, and I haven't been able to participate in this discussion since the beginning or get into Lammania, but today I saw that there has been a change in the OP since I first saw it, which I'm relieved about, because the change in dice would have been a bigger nerf. If I remember correctly, the T5 before was also different, so I really hope that "jaded" is not changed to how it is today.

[Abilbo]

Yes, the truth is that there is a nerf in the inquisitive, a nerf that can be compensated for certain builds, but not for all. At least not without major changes in builds, and what certain people here on the forums and apparently all devs don't seem to understand is that some of us are tired of making forced respecs of our characters due to continual nerfs and major changes. Very, very tired.

In your post, you state that the nerf can be comensated for certain builds, but not all. Without making you think that I am trying to pick a fight or anything, I would be interested in knowing what builds it won't be good for? Inquisitive isn't a class, its a universal enhancement tree that makes anyone who wants to play a shooter, able to do so. Yes, most players will still have to put points in a 2nd universal tree to get a stat to hit and damage, but every class other than fighter, gets some kind of imbue in their enhancement trees.

I am waiting for the 2nd test to go live, to try the imbue system. Currently on live, focusing on imbues, is less effective than focusing on primary DPS or on Sneak attack Die. The new system could change that. I don't think it will change it for end game players, unless they put the ability in there for imbues to crit, which was the 1st question asked in this thread, and I couldn't see a response to it.

I am just wondering what race and class you are currently playing that this new system will nerf.

[Stravix]

I have not the slightest desire to fight. But you can't deny that almost all the options you mentioned required losing current build options, which is a loss. And proposing major changes to compensate for a nerf remains unrealistic and inconsiderate of the concerns of those who are being hurt by this update. On the other hand, to criticize people saying "be creative and adapt", you better shut up and let us discuss our concerns with the devs. You're not helping at all, just putting shears.

In other words, your next example had better compare apples to apples, not apples to watermelons.

So, 3 imbue dice are needed to be about the same as before at reasonable Ranged power. Let's start there.

Considering they said they were adding imbue dice to multiple sets, without knowledge of which sets were getting them (but knowing that most imbues actually scale with ranged power or melee power, as opposed to spell power), we can assume a notable ranged set or two will have that +3 imbue dice.

Right there, you are already at a breakeven, without getting into the fact that the hunter augments (easy to slot into almost any build) will give you more, or the new embodiment of law feat or so on and so forth.

At bare level minimum, due to sets getting those three from the set bonus, most builds are at a breakeven without further investment, but given the opportunity to additionally scale.

This is a minor nerf in heroics, specifically at levels 18-20, but for full builds, even if you choose not to invest into this new scaling option, you are likely to not lose any damage from what we've seen.

[Stravix]

I hope so, but I would like a confirmation from Lynn. I've had very little time lately, and I haven't been able to participate in this discussion since the beginning or get into Lammania, but today I saw that there has been a change in the OP since I first saw it, which I'm relieved about, because the change in dice would have been a bigger nerf. If I remember correctly, the T5 before was also different, so I really hope that "jaded" is not changed to how it is today.

I'll be honest, I've been on this thread from (i think) the second day, and it's been d8 and the listed T5s since I first looked at it, so it was likely a quickly corrected typo that you are referring. THat said, if you have not been following the thread, you should be made aware that RP scaling on LoYS has been increased from 150% RP to 200% RP.

I have a thread on the discussion board doing a breakdown of how the math shakes out for the RP scaling changes, if you wanna give that a look.

[ivorycoaster]

I have not the slightest desire to fight. But you can't deny that almost all the options you mentioned required losing current build options, which is a loss. And proposing major changes to compensate for a nerf remains unrealistic and inconsiderate of the concerns of those who are being hurt by this update. On the other hand, to criticize people saying "be creative and adapt", you better shut up and let us discuss our concerns with the devs. You're not helping at all, just putting shears.

In other words, your next example had better compare apples to apples, not apples to watermelons.

I don't even know what your build is. I do know that any halfway decent inquisitive I have ever seen runs at least some rogue levels (+3 imbue dice for 8 AP and 2 levels) or runs artificer at some capacity. Most run both. So if you have to make major build changes to grab some of the low hanging fruit there, maybe your build just isn't very good in the first place, which probably won't matter much either way if you're not playing hard content. The problem with your concerns is that if they make balance changes for every person who can't or doesn't try to optimize a build, those changes would be overpowered for those that do. It's a very important perspective to keep in mind and is exactly why what I am saying is far more productive and relevant than you seem to realize.

[Anurakh]

I'll be honest, I've been on this thread from (i think) the second day, and it's been d8 and the listed T5s since I first looked at it, so it was likely a quickly corrected typo that you are referring. THat said, if you have not been following the thread, you should be made aware that RP scaling on LoYS has been increased from 150% RP to 200% RP.

I have a thread on the discussion board doing a breakdown of how the math shakes out for the RP scaling changes, if you wanna give that a look.

It could be, maybe I'm remembering wrong, I've had very complicated weeks, although I may have gotten confused reading the discussion here, it's been long and complicated and although I haven't had time to write I've tried to read what was being written.

In any case, if jaded doesn't change, I'm calmer. I was worried that the imbue itself would change, in addition to losing the dice. I can add dice by other means, but the imbue had a worse solution.

Thanks.

[Stravix]

It could be, maybe I'm remembering wrong, I've had a very complicated week, although I may have gotten confused reading the discussion here, it's been long and complicated and although I haven't had time to write I've tried to read what was being written.

In any case, if jaded doesn't change, I'm calmer. I was worried that the imbue itself would change, in addition to losing the dice. I can add dice by other means, but the imbue had a worse solution.

If memory serves, the imbue does have a minor change, namely being d8 vs chaotic and d4 vs else, whereas now is d8 vs non-lawful and d4 vs lawful. Aka netural alignments are now to d4s from d8s, but that is it, and with jaded getting a dice, alongside this change, I doubt we will see any non-jaded inquis.

[Anurakh]

I don't even know what your build is. I do know that any halfway decent inquisitive I have ever seen runs at least some rogue levels (+3 imbue dice for 8 AP and 2 levels) or runs artificer at some capacity. Most run both. So if you have to make major build changes to grab some of the low hanging fruit there, maybe your build just isn't very good in the first place, which probably won't matter much either way if you're not playing hard content. The problem with your concerns is that if they make balance changes for every person who can't or doesn't try to optimize a build, those changes would be overpowered for those that do. It's a very important perspective to keep in mind and is exactly why what I am saying is far more productive and relevant than you seem to realize.

Please enough. You are not helping. Stop making assumptions about the quality of my build or bragging about the options a good inquisitoive should have. Enough. And FYI, inquisitive is a universal tree and I've seen great builds that have 0 rogue levels. You have a very narrow point of view for how much you brag about adaptation.

And I repeat, my criticism of you has nothing to do with I having a trauma with the number of lost dice, but with the fact that you proposed an example full of major changes and options that meant more of a loss than a gain. Try to be less arrogant in your posts, and somewhat more sympathetic to the concerns of others.

[Anurakh]

If memory serves, the imbue does have a minor change, namely being d8 vs chaotic and d4 vs else, whereas now is d8 vs non-lawful and d4 vs lawful. Aka netural alignments are now to d4s from d8s, but that is it, and with jaded getting a dice, alongside this change, I doubt we will see any non-jaded inquis.

my problem with imbue being half damage to other alignments is that alignments are like energy immunities, they're everywhere. That's why with the current system I always took "jaded", because otherwise I get half damage on more enemies than I get full damage. The only thing I want is for the new system is this not to change, because it is already annoying to have immunity to electricity everywhere, to also find something similar in the physical damage of my crossbow.

[Anurakh]

In your post, you state that the nerf can be comensated for certain builds, but not all. Without making you think that I am trying to pick a fight or anything, I would be interested in knowing what builds it won't be good for? Inquisitive isn't a class, its a universal enhancement tree that makes anyone who wants to play a shooter, able to do so. Yes, most players will still have to put points in a 2nd universal tree to get a stat to hit and damage, but every class other than fighter, gets some kind of imbue in their enhancement trees.

I am waiting for the 2nd test to go live, to try the imbue system. Currently on live, focusing on imbues, is less effective than focusing on primary DPS or on Sneak attack Die. The new system could change that. I don't think it will change it for end game players, unless they put the ability in there for imbues to crit, which was the 1st question asked in this thread, and I couldn't see a response to it.

I am just wondering what race and class you are currently playing that this new system will nerf.

I have two inquisitives currently, one is a pure artificer who I don't think will be harmed by this new system. The other is an alt ranger who despite what someone else on this forum says has more dps than the artificer. I am not so sure that it is so easy to replace the 5 damage dice in this toon, to invest in the arcane archer I would have to withdraw points from enhancements that are currently increasing physical damage, and honestly I don't think the trade off is worth it: I would have to give up current dps options to recover what I previously had as a base, and the arcane archer is not going to help me with anything else. It's been a long time since I've reincarnated this toon, but I don't feel like doing it either given the current state of the alts (when devs created the HW I toyed with the idea of making him an archer again, but I discarded it due to lack of time and motivation). I don't plan on wasting time making major changes to the build given the devs' policy of only designing for those with a character. But I wouldn't be happy if it lost a lot of dps either, since I use it to play raids when the other characters are on timer, and it works great for this.

We'll see if it will be profitable to build based on the imbues. In my experience, if imbues are energy based, you get immunities all over the place. Other imbues like this inquisitive alignment imbue are more consistent, but also have their own drawbacks. I don't think anything is going to replace the weapon's own physical damage, so I'm also reluctant to lose current options that help that to get more imbue dices. We'll see. I hope to test in preview 2.

[yfernbottom]

Yes, the truth is that there is a nerf in the inquisitive, a nerf that can be compensated for certain builds, but not for all. At least not without major changes in builds, and what certain people here on the forums and apparently all devs don't seem to understand is that some of us are tired of making forced respecs of our characters due to continual nerfs and major changes. Very, very tired.

On one of my current builds it will also force a much steeper trade-off between offense and defense than I currently face. After my "respec" my offense will likely be much stronger than it is now, but I will lose about 20-30% of my defense. However if I kept my current build, I would lose an inordinate amount of DPS on a build that is already only OK at it. My current somewhat hybrid build will no longer be viable.

[TueNictGut]

Harper is a popular split for int to hit and dmg and the int trance
Apart from eschew materials in t4 its rarely to nearly never used beyond this. Simply as its too wide spread and outdated and lacks power.

I have the following suggestions to change this with the imbue changes:

- The t5 enchant weapon cries improve me with imbue dice or bonus dmg to imbuedice in my opinion.

- Improve the numbers on versatile adept IV to modern standards (you could basicaly improve the whole line I to IV)and reduce the 3 ap needed and t5 harper might become a viable option, thats interesting to build around for some characktersplits

- As t4 is really lacking too, you could add some dice here and give enchant weapon in t5 a bonus on every dice
- you could also add a harper imbue of some kind here, maybe force to give melee an option for an force imbue.

- Maybe change throat dagger to eye dagger that blinds and induces helplessness, which would make it much more worth some investion.

- some low hangig fruits like adding magical training to magical endurance would ofc. be welcomed but
is not necessarily needed
Thx for reading and considering

[Anurakh]

On one of my current builds it will also force a much steeper trade-off between offense and defense than I currently face. After my "respec" my offense will likely be much stronger than it is now, but I will lose about 20-30% of my defense. However if I kept my current build, I would lose an inordinate amount of DPS on a build that is already only OK at it. My current somewhat hybrid build will no longer be viable.

Yes, this is what people do not understand. It's not that the nerf can't be compensated for in any way, but there are cases where there is no way to do it without major changes. A lot of times it's also not as simple as just investing in another enhancement tree, which has a shiny new imbue, because to invest in that tree, you have to take points from another tree, and then you're incurring a loss to get what that you already had. Changing feats, EDs, etc, has these same problems. There are some additions that can be easy (like adding an augment), but there are others that are not so easy.

Even changing gear is a major headache, given the state gear tetris has reached in this game. And let's see, I don't think there's any reason to raise our hands to our heads either: I think we can find solutions (especially if there is an increase in the scaling of the imbue with ranged power). But I also think that some people in this thread are not understanding that these types of changes are detrimental to certain builds, and that it is logical that people are upset about it, especially when in recent years there has been a tendency to force us to make forced re-specializations. I've already lost count of how many times I've had to change a build for a nerf or major change in the last few years. In the old days there weren't such sudden changes so often. And people who don't like to do TRs continuously, get annoyed when the changes are so often.