U57 Preview 1: Imbue Overhaul

[Stravix]

don't you think there are more creative ways to get dice than to put a bunch of AP into inquisitive? I run EK and there's zero chance I splash inquisitive just for imbue dice. WAY too many wasted AP, in an already AP starved build style. Drow, MAYBE... Inquis? no way. If people want to do that route, so be it, but I can almost gaurantee you it won't be very good..

Honestly, Inquis seems like it would be bait, I agree, but I can wholeheartedly see all EK wizards being an elf just for +8 dice through the AA tree, because that is almost doubling your imbues, and you don't even need to run it as a bow anymore.

[droid327]

Honestly, Inquis seems like it would be bait, I agree, but I can wholeheartedly see all EK wizards being an elf just for +8 dice through the AA tree, because that is almost doubling your imbues, and you don't even need to run it as a bow anymore.

41 EK 6 PM 22 AA is 69 right there, so you'd need at least 3 RAP to unlock AA. And that pretty much forces you into a STR build without Harper, which means no offensive casting outside maybe Torrent. Might make more sense to give up 2 die and only take 12 AA, and go 12 Harper to be INT based (with a few more RAP). 6 for 12 is a better deal than 8 for 22.

If you're not going to take PM for self heals, then you're probably better off doing it as a Sorc EK, 41 EK 22 AA 7 Fey with 4 RAP and then you can get all 8 die while using your casting stat for hit/dmg. Of course, you have to weigh the benefits of 8 imbue die vs 41 EK 31 Feydark, for bonus CHA and Force crit (Ruin/GRuin) and GCS and Shattermantle on hit.

[Zyrag]

Dunno how feasible this is, but I've seen a lot of people wanting base imbue enhancements adding dice.

One way to possibly handle it would be to have the enhancement start out on 0 dice and define the die size / restrictions / requirements, as well as adding +1 die.

For example Arty imbue would change from 1d8 electric * electric SP to (0d8 electric + 1 die) * electric SP.

At first glance it seems like this would end up being net neutral (as far as current changes go) to single imbue classes, while giving multiclassing for dice more appeal. Especially since the imbue enhancements will nearly if not always be available earlier than additional dice that go along with them.

Not sure how to work out the tooltip though.

[Saekee]

Nice consolidation. Is it possible to make imbue dice crit with this change?

TLDR whole thread but on this note--can we do the old fashion 'burst' on crit? So an assassin would get venomed blades but on tier 3 venom burst--on crit a bit more.

[Stravix]

Dunno how feasible this is, but I've seen a lot of people wanting base imbue enhancements adding dice.

One way to possibly handle it would be to have the enhancement start out on 0 dice and define the die size / restrictions / requirements, as well as adding +1 die.

For example Arty imbue would change from 1d8 electric * electric SP to (0d8 electric + 1 die) * electric SP.

At first glance it seems like this would end up being net neutral (as far as current changes go) to single imbue classes, while giving multiclassing for dice more appeal. Especially since the imbue enhancements will nearly if not always be available earlier than additional dice that go along with them.

Not sure how to work out the tooltip though.

You could just make all AP based imbues a multiselector with the imbue and +1 imbue die (or on three part ones +0/+0/+1).

Might not be the prettiest, but should work.

[Pretty_Good_Old_One]

41 EK 6 PM 22 AA is 69 right there, so you'd need at least 3 RAP to unlock AA. And that pretty much forces you into a STR build without Harper, which means no offensive casting outside maybe Torrent. Might make more sense to give up 2 die and only take 12 AA, and go 12 Harper to be INT based (with a few more RAP). 6 for 12 is a better deal than 8 for 22.

If you're not going to take PM for self heals, then you're probably better off doing it as a Sorc EK, 41 EK 22 AA 7 Fey with 4 RAP and then you can get all 8 die while using your casting stat for hit/dmg. Of course, you have to weigh the benefits of 8 imbue die vs 41 EK 31 Feydark, for bonus CHA and Force crit (Ruin/GRuin) and GCS and Shattermantle on hit.

I could be misunderstanding you, but I think you might have the numbers wrong on AA dice. I don't think you get any dice for the 1st tier of AA, just a toggle to do an elemental imbue of arrows. Your first extra dice would come at 7 AP (+2), next at 12 AP (+4 total), and then at 22 AP (+6 total). The only way to get +8 dice from AA would be to go T5 for 32AP. It can still be useful in a lot of potential imbue builds, but without racial AP, you are talking spending 21 AP for +2 dice, 26 AP for +4 dice, and 36 AP for +6 dice. That gets pretty pricy (even with bonus racial AP it gets pricy).

But I think that may make your point even stronger... I don't think maxing AA is so strong for an EK that it is an auto-take.

I like it being a little difficult to add in more dice, but having lots of trade-offs to get there. Multi-classing looks a lot more interesting with dice somewhat making up for lost primary class levels.

[jetster11]

Please explain how the Inquisitive will not suffer a major damage loss with this imbue system.

Currently

the cores give 3 plus 3 plus 4 law dice and these dice get converted to d8 for any alignment or d10s if choosing an alignment.

You also get an additional 2 dice in the trees for at least 12 d8 la dice (for any alignment)

This appears to be dropped to 1d6 for each of these plus 1 (or 2?) for the tier 5 multi-selector.

so this would be 1+1 +1 + 1+1 plus (1 or 2) . so 7 d6 vs. 12 d8. Inquisitive as already nerfed about eight ways with the no holds barred delays, doubleshot halving, the loss of procs on each shot and on and on.

There is NO way inquisitives are performing anywhere near the current ranger, shuri, dagger or even artificer repeater builds even now. Several major write-ups were done outlining the best thrower builds written by Ying in the U53 Completionist guide to thrower builds. Inquisitive was already 40-70% less damage than all these other types.

Throwers shiradis 155K per min
Great Xbows 140K
Heavy Repeaters 130K
Shuris 140-150K
Bows 156-170K
Inquisitives 75-90K

Since then some Xbow builds have gotten an extra clip so would be even higher.

[jetster11]

Dunno how feasible this is, but I've seen a lot of people wanting base imbue enhancements adding dice.

One way to possibly handle it would be to have the enhancement start out on 0 dice and define the die size / restrictions / requirements, as well as adding +1 die.

For example Arty imbue would change from 1d8 electric * electric SP to (0d8 electric + 1 die) * electric SP.

At first glance it seems like this would end up being net neutral (as far as current changes go) to single imbue classes, while giving multiclassing for dice more appeal. Especially since the imbue enhancements will nearly if not always be available earlier than additional dice that go along with them.

Not sure how to work out the tooltip though.

This is not net neutral because the imbue dice are 1d6 not 1d8 , so roughly a 22% reduction in damage (1d6 is average of 3.5 and 1d8 average of 4.5)

[Stravix]

Please explain how the Inquisitive will not suffer a major damage loss with this imbue system.

Currently

the cores give 3 plus 3 plus 4 law dice and these dice get converted to d8 for any alignment or d10s if choosing an alignment.

You also get an additional 2 dice in the trees for at least 12 d8 la dice (for any alignment)

This appears to be dropped to 1d6 for each of these plus 1 (or 2?) for the tier 5 multi-selector.

so this would be 1+1 +1 + 1+1 plus (1 or 2) . so 7 d6 vs. 12 d8. Inquisitive as already nerfed about eight ways with the no holds barred delays, doubleshot halving, the loss of procs on each shot and on and on.

There is NO way inquisitives are performing anywhere near the current ranger, shuri, dagger or even artificer repeater builds even now. Several major write-ups were done outlining the best thrower builds written by Ying in the U53 Completionist guide to thrower builds. Inquisitive was already 40-70% less damage than all these other types.

Throwers shiradis 155K per min
Great Xbows 140K
Heavy Repeaters 130K
Shuris 140-150K
Bows 156-170K
Inquisitives 75-90K

Since then some Xbow builds have gotten an extra clip so would be even higher.

Few things to clear up, Inquis is staying a d8, just as it is on live. Not going to a d6, nor on live is it a d10. Don't know how you came to that. With a moderate investment in RP, as the scaling has been increased, the build outperforms the old inquis damage at 3 imbue die, aka a single set, not counting augments, EDs, fill, etc.

[DRoark]

It's absolutely not a small increase... yadda yadda....

I haven't mentioned IPL at all, so not sure what thread you're reading.

You seem to think I have to explain math, but you can probably add. )

[Sormiron]

A small question, which i don't believe i've seen elsewhere, does this mean the ninja poison on-crit effect now requires enabling the ninja poison imbue? Does this also mean the ninja poison on-crit effect is now mutually exclusive with using the poison imbue from Alchemist?

I'm only a casual player so i'll ultimately get over it if so, but it would be a shame to see my meme shuriken poison build go from spellpower to only 100% ranged power.

As for other feedback, someone suggested having each imbue give +1 imbue dice, but work as if they're "0dX" and the first imbue dice puts them to 1dX, such so that collecting extra imbues for multiclasses feels better. I can see both sides to this idea, but ultimately, i like it a lot and i do hope something like it gets implemented.

All in all though, imbues are my favourite kind of builds to make, and while the change happens to not change the builds i'm currently invested in, i'm super excited what it can mean for future archetypes, enhancement trees, equipment and etc. keep up the good work

My current toon tried to use the synergy of alchemist poison and ninja poison aswell. This time with shurikens but i have used staves aswell. Currenly you do more damage going pure alchemist with throwing knives, but it is still fun. To actually stack ninja poison to 100% is near impossible and only happens on rare occasions since it does not stack on mobs that are inherently immune and it requires a better crit profie than either weapons. It is still fun with primal avatar, removing immunities. I think ninja poison should probably be a separate toggle with thechanges even if i think ninja spy is still weak

[dkyle]

I haven't mentioned IPL at all, so not sure what thread you're reading.

You seem to think I have to explain math, but you can probably add. )

Your original arguments apply 100% to IPL toggles, so it seemed fair to include them. Fair enough. You have no problem with IPL toggles. Weird to draw the line between them and EPLs, but whatever. Every point still stands for EPLs alone. Detoggling EPLs is a large buff given they are stacking and have no build resource cost.

I have no idea what you're talking about regarding math. I do not see any question of math at stake here.

[ivorycoaster]

Please explain how the Inquisitive will not suffer a major damage loss with this imbue system.

Currently

the cores give 3 plus 3 plus 4 law dice and these dice get converted to d8 for any alignment or d10s if choosing an alignment.

You also get an additional 2 dice in the trees for at least 12 d8 la dice (for any alignment)

This appears to be dropped to 1d6 for each of these plus 1 (or 2?) for the tier 5 multi-selector.

so this would be 1+1 +1 + 1+1 plus (1 or 2) . so 7 d6 vs. 12 d8. Inquisitive as already nerfed about eight ways with the no holds barred delays, doubleshot halving, the loss of procs on each shot and on and on.

There is NO way inquisitives are performing anywhere near the current ranger, shuri, dagger or even artificer repeater builds even now. Several major write-ups were done outlining the best thrower builds written by Ying in the U53 Completionist guide to thrower builds. Inquisitive was already 40-70% less damage than all these other types.

Throwers shiradis 155K per min
Great Xbows 140K
Heavy Repeaters 130K
Shuris 140-150K
Bows 156-170K
Inquisitives 75-90K

Since then some Xbow builds have gotten an extra clip so would be even higher.

This has been addressed so many times in this thread. They plan to make them scale higher, and if you can't manage to get more dice with the new system (filgrees, sets, augments, enhancements, feats) then you're not really trying. 3 dice just from 2 rogue splash. So many trees adding dice now. Assuming it was 1d6, instead of 1d8, here's how easy it would still be to make it better.

Let's use 18 arti/2 rogue as an example. 7d6 + 3 from rogue assassin, 10. +1 aug, +1 filigree, +2 elemental weapons, +2 embodiment of law. 16d6.
12d8 x 150% scaling vs 16d6 x 200% scaling. +3 profane experiment/walking ancestors/ crypt raider set, +1 elemental dice feat, +3 scion, +3 draconic, +2 drow are just some of the many options of adding more dice. Its quite simple.

[Anurakh]

This has been addressed so many times in this thread. They plan to make them scale higher, and if you can't manage to get more dice with the new system (filgrees, sets, augments, enhancements, feats) then you're not really trying. 3 dice just from 2 rogue splash. So many trees adding dice now. Assuming it was 1d6, instead of 1d8, here's how easy it would still be to make it better.

Let's use 18 arti/2 rogue as an example. 7d6 + 3 from rogue assassin, 10. +1 aug, +1 filigree, +2 elemental weapons, +2 embodiment of law. 16d6.
12d8 x 150% scaling vs 16d6 x 200% scaling. +3 profane experiment/walking ancestors/ crypt raider set, +1 elemental dice feat, +3 scion, +3 draconic, +2 drow are just some of the many options of adding more dice. Its quite simple.

This is an idiotic example. Assume you have to multiclass, assume you have to give up your current set and switch all gear, give up deadly for elemental weapons, give up a feat to get a mere +1 dice, change race to drow and switch your filigrees configuration, there are also losses there, just to get something similar to what we currently have. NO, THANKS.

[Anurakh]

Lynnabel:

My current inquisitive has a imbue d8 for all alignments with T5 option “jaded”. Can you confirm that it will still be d8 with the new system, without changing that enhancement? Because from what I understand with your OP, that has disappeared from tier 5, and the truth is, I don't like the idea at all, and it's a big loss of dps.

Thanks in advance for your time.

[jetster11]

This has been addressed so many times in this thread. They plan to make them scale higher, and if you can't manage to get more dice with the new system (filgrees, sets, augments, enhancements, feats) then you're not really trying. 3 dice just from 2 rogue splash. So many trees adding dice now. Assuming it was 1d6, instead of 1d8, here's how easy it would still be to make it better.

Let's use 18 arti/2 rogue as an example. 7d6 + 3 from rogue assassin, 10. +1 aug, +1 filigree, +2 elemental weapons, +2 embodiment of law. 16d6.
12d8 x 150% scaling vs 16d6 x 200% scaling. +3 profane experiment/walking ancestors/ crypt raider set, +1 elemental dice feat, +3 scion, +3 draconic, +2 drow are just some of the many options of adding more dice. Its quite simple.

Although some of what you say is legit (and helpful) , you are not comparing apples to apples in your comparison. Currently you re not considering that elemental weapons currently adds 3d6, although not scaled to 200%, the rogue adds 3d6 sneak attack damage also, The reason I bring this up is you take any of the imbue scion destinies , you lose a lot from not usiing scion of ethereal 6 d6 of sneak attack damage, +4 to all skills and lesser displacement and ghost touch to get +3 imbue dice, draconic is a poor destiny for ranged builds so that is a lot of destiny points wasted and as that is a tier3 enhancement you lose roughly 12 destiny points and a destiny tree (like primal or fatesinger). And doing drow puts you in an all other ways poor racial tree.

[ivorycoaster]

Although some of what you say is legit (and helpful) , you are not comparing apples to apples in your comparison. Currently you re not considering that elemental weapons currently adds 3d6, although not scaled to 200%, the rogue adds 3d6 sneak attack damage also, The reason I bring this up is you take any of the imbue scion destinies , you lose a lot from not usiing scion of ethereal 6 d6 of sneak attack damage, +4 to all skills and lesser displacement and ghost touch to get +3 imbue dice, draconic is a poor destiny for ranged builds so that is a lot of destiny points wasted and as that is a tier3 enhancement you lose roughly 12 destiny points and a destiny tree (like primal or fatesinger). And doing drow puts you in an all other ways poor racial tree.

no. I think you're misunderstanding. assassin has +3 imbue dice in tree in tier 2, elemental weapons adds +2 imbue dice. these are super low hanging fruit. I am not saying you have to take ALL of these. I am just saying there are a ton of options to get you back to, and beyond, where your dice were, and now the potential is far greater. I too would prefer the sneak dice, as they also scale with ranged power. the augment from hunt or be hunted will now add one dice. embodiment of law / harbinger of chaos will add two, level 31 enhanced elemental dice will add 1 (hopefully more.) you certainly don't have to min max imbue dice to maximize your dps, as you do still have physical ranged damage and sneak dice, and all your damage sources will scale with ranged power.

[ivorycoaster]

This is an idiotic example. Assume you have to multiclass, assume you have to give up your current set and switch all gear, give up deadly for elemental weapons, give up a feat to get a mere +1 dice, change race to drow and switch your filigrees configuration, there are also losses there, just to get something similar to what we currently have. NO, THANKS.

look, if you can't figure out how to get more dps from an update like this I don't know what to tell you. Why WOULDNT you multiclass on an inquis, when you are going to take inquis capstone anyway? why WOULDNT you change a few things (you don't have to take every option I gave here, your phys and sneak dice also scale on ranged power,) in order to gain more net dps? the example is to show that the potential is far greater than what it is right now, not to say what everyone who likes that playstyle should be doing. on paper, this is a gift to anyone with a shred of creative character building skill.

[Baahb3]

This is an idiotic example. Assume you have to multiclass, assume you have to give up your current set and switch all gear, give up deadly for elemental weapons, give up a feat to get a mere +1 dice, change race to drow and switch your filigrees configuration, there are also losses there, just to get something similar to what we currently have. NO, THANKS.

This is how I am feeling right now.

with a moderate investment in racial points
by taking a scion feat
by changing gear to get specific sets
by changing filigree sets
by swapping augments
by multiclassing
by changing to this race
by going into Draconic ED

Yes, you can get more out of this proposed Imbue system, IF you are willing and wanting to change the very nature of your character.

For those that chase the numbers, this might not be a problem, for others, this is just a kick in the face. A change for the sake of change.

[Anurakh]

look, if you can't figure out how to get more dps from an update like this I don't know what to tell you. Why WOULDNT you multiclass on an inquis, when you are going to take inquis capstone anyway? why WOULDNT you change a few things (you don't have to take every option I gave here, your phys and sneak dice also scale on ranged power,) in order to gain more net dps? the example is to show that the potential is far greater than what it is right now, not to say what everyone who likes that playstyle should be doing. on paper, this is a gift to anyone with a shred of creative character building skill.

I'm not going to multiclass with the classes you want just because you want, it's MY build. And my build works perfectly now on live. So the ideal is that the new system leaves me at an operational level just as functional as it is now WITHOUT MAJOR CHANGES.

That said, I'm not worried about losing those 5 dice, but rather I said that your examples are completely idiotic. You are proposing a particular (and bad) race that would require TR, a non-ranged ED that would involve spending a lot of points just for the imbue, the spell elemental weapons is not available to all classes (and on some occasions, it means the losing the use of deadly, another loss), and taking new gear, feats and so on means losing the options you currently have in the build, it's not a net gain, so your example is INADEQUATE. You can list if you want options that there are to increase the dice, but you have not done that, you have put an example in which your options suppose more losses than benefits for the build. Changing my build to recover the gains and losing my current options, not to gain additionally, IS NOT A NEUTRAL CHANGE.

Next time, give realistic examples, or don't answer. Or at least don't be ****ed if someone tell you that your examples are totally unrealistic and counterproductive.

That said, I'm more worried about losing T5 where I get the same damage (d8) for all alignments than losing dice, which I already have plans for (my own realistic plans, not like yours, which are unreal to no more). Early on, Lynnabel put a 1d6 imbue on the inquisitive, I see that has changed it back to 1d8 (thanks for listening to our concerns!), but it's not clear to me what about the T5 options that change the die. Can you confirm them, Lynnabel, please?