U57 Preview 1: Imbue Overhaul

[Lotoc]

At L30+ you're not going to be swapping Spellsword elements...you're going to gear for one element's spellpower, and that's the Scion you'll take. No even semi-optimized build is going to have a second elemental spellpower where its worth it to swap out on the fly because you do more damage situationally against anyone but immunes, and definitely not for a "huge gain", and definitely definitely not where its worth giving up the damage die themselves for it.

Except you know, primal mantle sky/thorn ends up being one of the better ones for an EK and is only getting better with the +3 imbue dice of shared mantle. So you gear for upto 3 elements. Also you only need to gear for the spell power and not the spell crit.
Cold and electric is conveniently paired most of the time.
Stop being obsessed with the elemental strip fire tiefling ek build it isn't the end all be all.

Fortunately in regards to scion feats it tends to only be a difference of 10 spell power as most are 30 universal 10 specific. Most of the power discrepancy is the crit damage.

[Xgya]

You really think inquisitor needs tweaked in heroics?

Personally, I would just consider a repeater build with imbues anyways.

I would rather heroic balancing ever to be part of the equation. Heroic levelling is no challenge outside of HCL. Everytime they tweak heroics to balance end game, it has a negative result.

Your answer to "this build feels like it's losing out" is "personally, I would just consider an entirely different build".

I don't think Inquisitive needs tweaking in heroics. The proposed change is a downwards tweak in heroics.

To say "you would be better off playing something entirely different" proves my point.

[yfernbottom]

Everyone's looking at endgame high-end results.
Meanwhile, I'm still a bit uncertain about the state of Heroic Inquisitives.
Changing scaling doesn't exactly help when ranged power is so low at those levels.

At level 12, I expect a character will have 30 ranged power or less (not counting temporary boosts)

Currently, they get to deal 7d8.
31.5x(1+0.3x1.5)=45.675
Now, they do 6d8 with better scaling.
27x(1+0.3x2)=43.2

Already, at level 12, some damage is getting lost to the void unless the Inquisitive has access to a tree with imbue dice and has AP to spare there.

Level 18 now:
I expect to be able to gain about 5 ranged power from the difference between set bonuses. I was already highballing 30 earlier, so let's still do that at 45. (+5 from a better Sharn set compared to a Ravenloft one, +10 from the level 18 enhancement)

Before, at 10d8:
45x(1+0.45x1.5) = 75.735
Now, at 7d8:
31.5x(1+0.35x2) = 59.85

If the scaling is supposed to be what makes up for that difference, the discrepancy between the amount of ranged power between heroics and epics needs to be fixed rather quickly.

This is really the issue, it a really badly targeted nerf. In heroics, where you absolutely do need that damage, no-one is running with 200 RAP. It's a huge nerf. On some builds you can get those dice back by 20 from some other tree, but putting 41 points into Inquisitive is going to be a lot less viable than it is now.

On the other had, by late epics when you can very easily be running with 100+ RAP, it's all about base damage. Even 100 extra points of damage per attack from dice is pretty insignificant compared to base damage and Shiradi. So it nerfs the hell out of Inq. builds in heroics, while having almost no impact on them in epics.

I am fairly confident that my Inq. build in high in Epics won't even notice this change, and my characters will stop using the tree altogether in heroics. If that's the intent, have at it I guess.

[jskinner937]

Your answer to "this build feels like it's losing out" is "personally, I would just consider an entirely different build".

I don't think Inquisitive needs tweaking in heroics. The proposed change is a downwards tweak in heroics.

To say "you would be better off playing something entirely different" proves my point.

No I think you missed the point. Repeaters have no imbue currently in heroics. With new system they will, which will outperform current inquisitor anyway.

[Kortar]

This is really the issue, it a really badly targeted nerf. In heroics, where you absolutely do need that damage, no-one is running with 200 RAP. It's a huge nerf. On some builds you can get those dice back by 20 from some other tree, but putting 41 points into Inquisitive is going to be a lot less viable than it is now.

On the other had, by late epics when you can very easily be running with 100+ RAP, it's all about base damage. Even 100 extra points of damage per attack from dice is pretty insignificant compared to base damage and Shiradi. So it nerfs the hell out of Inq. builds in heroics, while having almost no impact on them in epics.

I am fairly confident that my Inq. build in high in Epics won't even notice this change, and my characters will stop using the tree altogether in heroics. If that's the intent, have at it I guess.

Unless your inquisitive build is specifically a pure fighter you will have access to extra imbue dice in your class trees.
So adding the 1d8 you lose in the 12-18 range shouldn't be a big deal nor is it a huge nerf to begin with.
Most builds should be able to get a damage buff in heroics with a simple AP respec.

[Mason007]

As someone who has missed playing arcane archer for a long time as it just hasnt been feeling great in the later levels, I have to say these ideas for balancing/reworking Imbues looks amazing and this might be the best concept I've seen and I hope it gets implemented. Keep up the great work Lynnabel!

[Tilomere]

This math is flawed. MP/RP/SP scalings cant be treated as a straight multiplier.

In some cases in the game that is how they work. Sneak attack damage works like this, I believe. The game is inconsistent with how 150% or 200% scaling is actually implemented.

[oraness]

This all looks like a great step forward as far as multiclassing goes - my worry comes in the AA imbues that aren't damage related. This update seems to be so focused on the damage aspect that the already niche Paralyzing Arrows kit looks like it's going to fade into antiquity. Now, while I understand that as things in a live game change, so will the usefulness of others but... the AA tree is filled to the brim with mediocre choices already. To this end, I have two recommendations;

First: Allow your Imbue Dice to increase the DC of your non-damage Imbues. This gives the tree a bit more cohesion than it currently has, where either half of the tree doesn't interact with the other half. Allowing you to pump your Enchant DC's through the Imbue Dice is a way to get both sides of the tree to interact with each other a little more nicely, even if it's not a 1:1 ratio.

Second: Shots from the tree interact with Imbue Dice. Currently, the Arcane Archer shots are pretty meh. Allowing some kind of way to interact with the new Imbue system (spitballing, Shattermantle increases spell power, Inferno adds bonus stacks, True Strike does.... anything?) allows you to breathe life into the tree without needing to do a complete overhaul.

The Force Arrows buff is well appreciated, though I am really starting to wonder if I like it because it gives me a second damage type to swap to, or if it's a moderately useful way to dump 6 points in the tree so I can avoid putting points into the aforementioned mediocre shots.

At the end of the day I'm still going to find a way to play AA as it is my favorite archetype to play, but this update is really a very strong opportunity to give the spec more identity than "we hit real hard on auto attacks," especially since with the modular nature of this new system there are going to be a LOT of builds that have that identity as well as much stronger utility.

[Archfae]

In some cases in the game that is how they work. Sneak attack damage works like this, I believe. The game is inconsistent with how 150% or 200% scaling is actually implemented.

Idk why people feel the need to suggest things like this when:

1) it makes no sense to design it that way
2) its pretty easily understood to not be the case if you pay attention to your damage numbers especially at low levels where MP/RP are either 0 or so close to zero as to be rendered moot.
3) its very easy to test against

You'll note that a 1d6 sneak attack toon wearing no deception based items, etc. will not do 1.5x the sneak attack damage when MP/RP are 0 or in the single digits. You can try as you might but you won't proc a 9 damage number for it.

[Coffey]

I like the new d8 Force Arrows in AA. I would suggest that the cost lowered to 1 AP/ Tier as others have said here.

And how about lowering the Elf AA unlock from 4 AP to 1 AP?

Will enchanted arrows still function with the EK Spellsword toggle as they do now on live ie AA Wiz or Sorc can use Spellsword with Paralyzing Arrows?

Thanks

[Arkandor]

Perfect timing for an overhaul, just realized that the warchanter ice imbue is completely useless, 1-6 extra damage for 3 AP? woohoo .

While working on this, could you also have a look at the visual effects of EK? All but fire are just ugly rings around your hands, I woudn't mind if you removed them altogether, but how about a setting to disable them? Or maybe allow us to hide the effects with glamoured weapons? (especially when you plan to add similar effects to other imbues.)

[KingKoz]

[QUOTE=Lynnabel;6547694]With Update 57 we are embarking on a series of global overhauls that aim to streamline and shake up the game and bring new cohesion across multiple builds. The Imbue system is one such overhaul and aims to drastically change how players approach certain builds, as well as open up a large variety of fun, flavorful, and powerful new ones. But enough talk - let's see the details!

My take on all this is....WHY? Why does SSG HAVE to come out with NEW Content that includes major changes? Why not have a (solely) content update and then the next update have it be these changes? I say this because past updates that included major changes ALWAYS get released with bugs and several down times. Just release some content updates. I for one am getting tired of all the "issues" when updates get released.

[KingKoz]

While working on this, could you also have a look at the visual effects of EK? All but fire are just ugly rings around your hands, I woudn't mind if you removed them altogether, but how about a setting to disable them? Or maybe allow us to hide the effects with glamoured weapons? (especially when you plan to add similar effects to other imbues.)[/QUOTE]

Why would you want to hide the glamoured effect when you went through the glamouring process to begin with? Why bother putting the effect on it if you are just going to turn it off?

[Arkandor]

While working on this, could you also have a look at the visual effects of EK? All but fire are just ugly rings around your hands, I woudn't mind if you removed them altogether, but how about a setting to disable them? Or maybe allow us to hide the effects with glamoured weapons? (especially when you plan to add similar effects to other imbues.)

Why would you want to hide the glamoured effect when you went through the glamouring process to begin with? Why bother putting the effect on it if you are just going to turn it off?

I want to hide the green halo Spellsword: Acid puts around my wrists. It's imbue weapon, not imbue wrists, so I suggested a glamoured weapon overriding the effect just like it does with an effect that is actually on the weapon. Just an alternative to completely removing the Spellsword effect, or adding a setting to turn it off.

[rabidfox]

Could probably even roll this caster-side with wands. Add a feat called "Use wand" that takes meta-magics/works off spell power/spell crit/dam that gets dragged down a hotbar. Have the number of damage dice from it use imbue dice. And have the initial number of imbue dice granted, damage type, and effect (single target/AoE/etc.) determined by the specific wand equipped.

[Dark_Lord_Mary]

All of this ultra simplifies Dungeons & Dragons Online in a way that is very at all Dungeons & Dragons.

I cannot see or understand the massive underhood undertaking of nerfing individual dice and the flavor they
give to builds to further pull DDO away from D&D into generic videogame land -

[Axcarth]

First of all, I want to thank you, Lynnabel, for the work you are bringing to us here, and for responses to feedback with your (wrong :P) maths and cool ideas. This really strengthens the health of the community.

Would it be possible to add a feat based imbue elsewhere then?

With every class except fighter having an imbue now, it seems bad to take away their only source of one.

Fighters also don't yet have an epic "requires 12 levels of <class>" feat...

Not bad ideas in the slightest. Part of me thinks that if we give Fighters an imbue it should be a fighter bonus feat, yanno? I feel like having them wait until epics is a little too far off though.

Ok, I want to bring this fighter topic back on the table again. I think fighters are missing some love since and a while. As you have said, one can see a lot of fighter splashed builds around but non pure fighters due to its lack of flavor (imho). Fighters can't heal themselves, can't buff, don't excel at tanking, don't excel at cc ("melee cc" since extremely high dc needed at end game even for fighter's feats), but they make their way to dps at top of the list. So, this imbue thing could certainly add some flavor to fighters on what they are meant for these days, dps. Give them a line of feats that grows as their lvl up, just like Heavy Armor (training, combatant, master, champion) and Tactical (training, combatant, mastery, supremacy). So it's up to players to go through defenses, cc, straight dps or some of each. Feat slots aint the problem here .

Thanks again.

[TromboneFireTurtle]

I don’t know if this has been brought up yet, but is it possible to have the Battle Engineer’s imbue be the same damage type as their Rune Arm Imbue? I think it would be great flavor, tie into that tree’s focus on Rune Arms, and increase the value of having multiple Rune Arms to switch to.
Just a thought, love the changes so far!
-D

[DRoark]

... She has gone completely off the deep end.

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People have been asking for years to reduce the number toggles, and make the abilities passive.

They add more toggles.

People ask again, when more toggles are added, to NOT add more, and reduce the toggle count.

They add more toggles.

Update 56 was a rampaging dumpster fire, so the GAME was toggled off for awhile there. Grats.

Now they add more toggles, nerf HPs, and break new things for, as it was stated, "excitement".

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When exactly did the entire community of people hired to HELP the game, start to hate it so much?

[misterski]

I don’t know if this has been brought up yet, but is it possible to have the Battle Engineer’s imbue be the same damage type as their Rune Arm Imbue? I think it would be great flavor, tie into that tree’s focus on Rune Arms, and increase the value of having multiple Rune Arms to switch to.
Just a thought, love the changes so far!
-D

But then you run into spell power issues. Oh that rune arm has a light imbue now I have to gear for light spell power for my imbue. No thanks.