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  1. #341
    Community Member Sqrlmonger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TueNictGut View Post
    Actualy in my opinion you get the same bang for your bucks and also the possibility to further increase your damage with imbue dice.
    Taking into account that inquisitive is already the most powerful universal tree in the game, a bit of nerving would not have harmed it too much. In my opinion there is no need to give it more goodies because a constructed core devalue problem, while you get the same or nearly the same dmg as before from the tree for the same points and some new possibilities to enhance it with imbuedice.
    From my point of view this is overcomplicating the changes unnecessarily.
    Based on what are you saying it is the most powerful tree? I feel like the word "universal" is doing most of the heavy lifting in this claim.

    Either way, you don't get the same damage, you get less. We are getting halved on dice and a 1/3rd increase on RP scaling. It would be like if I took half your money and then paid you 33 cents for every dollar you had left. You would end up with 66 cents for every dollar you started with (1 * 0.5 * 1.33).

    What we're being told is that if we redesign our builds by taking AP out of the tree and go elsewhere we could make up that imbue damage somewhere else. It's all opportunity cost, I have to give something to get something.

    This is why having Inquisitive give 5d of imbue damage for 23 points and then ask for 18 AP more for another +2 make it important to look at the value those enhancements and cores are offering otherwise. They have to be compared with what else is out there.

    Nothing I suggested is a full value for value replacement, core 4-6 are supposed to be the payoffs (5/6 in particular) for sticking with a tree and really investing in it.

    It's literally the worst place in a tree to take away and give nothing back. It requires the heaviest investment to reach and is supposed to be the big payoff.

  2. #342
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    Is there any way you could make the self damage from the frenzy imbue proc "I Like Pain" from the Ravager tree? That would turn the imbue into a nice engine for procing temp hp to negate some of the self damage.

  3. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neo-Masamune View Post
    I only play Arcane Archer!

    Will I be still be able to pick TWO elements instead of ONLY ONE?

    My gear and build is focused on eletric and ice arrows, to change when needed...

    Please dont make me pick only one!

    Edit: And i use AA ELF TREE! ALWAYS!
    AA is long overdue for some love. They should just grant the all the elemental imbues in the first core, bump force arrows down to t1, and add a bow version of fan of knives at t2 where the force imbue was. Low level bow combat is miserable.

  4. #344
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    Default some math on DC

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    That's totally on the table, if it helps - right now my suspicion is that the Law/Chaos ED Feats are going to end up as alignment boosts (so the Chaos one gives you, say, 2 imbue dice, some prr, some HP, some melee/ranged power, etc etc, but only if you're chaotic, same deal with law and law) and then we go back to the drawing board entirely on the T5s. Maybe the t5 bonuses for Fury/DC are just "you gain these feats if you didn't have them already, if you do have them, double their bonuses" - in that case, if the base feats are cool enough, the raw stats might be good enough to make everyone happy. And if they aren't, we can always add more juice to other areas of DC instead, all of the power doesn't have to be consolidated into that singular space, yanno?
    some fast math

    12d6 scaling 200% on live is roughly 18.5 dice with current changes.

    so lets add base damage on the best profile pallys (14-20/x4)

    crit damage multi scaling ends up being ~ 2.2
    meaning you need to re-add 38 base damage (yeah its a lot) at the Minimum to not be a nerf

    anything less than this will push DC to be in a horrific state, considering it's the only tree without a dps moment

  5. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lominal View Post
    some fast math

    12d6 scaling 200% on live is roughly 18.5 dice with current changes.

    so lets add base damage on the best profile pallys (14-20/x4)

    crit damage multi scaling ends up being ~ 2.2
    meaning you need to re-add 38 base damage (yeah its a lot) at the Minimum to not be a nerf

    anything less than this will push DC to be in a horrific state, considering it's the only tree without a dps moment
    Lynn's post on page 14 says Law of the Divine is keeping the 1d6 per epic/legendary level going forward. Also pretty sure the Law damage never scaled with crits and crit mult, so unsure what the crit profile stuff means.
    Lynn's post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Alrighty, lets get into Divine Crusader. As many of you have pointed out, and I quote, "don't mess with the law damage rargh" - so I'm simply going to not mess with the law damage and call it a day.

    So, with that in mind:
    Law of the Divine: (t5 DC) You gain the Embodiment of Law feat if you didn't have it already. If you did have it, you now deal 1d6 Law damage on hit per Epic/Legendary level scaling with 200% of the higher of Melee or Ranged Power. (you'll notice this is pretty much the same as before, except...)
    Bring Down Wrath: (t5 DC) On a critical hit, you apply 1 stack of Vulnerability and 1 stack of Armor Piercing. In addition, your shield is now considered a Favored Weapon for the purposes of your Divine Crusader Destiny Mantle, and now Doublestrikes at 50% of the rate of your main hand Doublestrike as if it were an offhand weapon. - This is a relatively small change, we're moving the on-hit debuffs over a step from Law of the Divine over to Bring Down Wrath. This is for 2 reasons: 1 is to make sure that each t5 has something for you even if you are not a shield user, and the other is so that we can decouple the debuffs from requiring the feat.

    And in Fury, Scarred by Chaos is remaining exactly the same.

    So, tldr, Law damage is back, huzzah! Onwards to part 2:

    What is still changing is the actual Law and Chaos ED Feats. We've got a pretty unique opportunity here to change them from badly-scaling small procs into something relatively unique, so...

    Embodiment of Law: +2% doublestrike and doubleshot. If you are lawful, you also gain +2 imbue dice

    Harbinger of Chaos: +3 PRR and MRR. if you are chaotic, you also gain +2 imbue dice

    We hope very much that these feats encourage players to step out of the True Neutral experience a bit. We want to offer incentives for alignment to mean more in character building and these feats are an excellent place to try that kind of design out. You won't need to actually be the listed alignment to take the feats, just to get the imbue dice, so if you just want doublestrike or some PRR feel free to snag em as you level up.

    Anyway, thank you all for your feedback so far! We can't wait to show you this and all of the other changes we're making during the next preview.
    Quote Originally Posted by TueNictGut View Post
    Actualy in my opinion you get the same bang for your bucks and also the possibility to further increase your damage with imbue dice.
    Taking into account that inquisitive is already the most powerful universal tree in the game, a bit of nerving would not have harmed it too much. In my opinion there is no need to give it more goodies because a constructed core devalue problem, while you get the same or nearly the same dmg as before from the tree for the same points and some new possibilities to enhance it with imbuedice.
    From my point of view this is overcomplicating the changes unnecessarily.
    I'd argue that vistani and feydark are the most powerful universal trees, both are vastly better for dips. Vistani is great when focused on, and feydark is good when focused. Inqui is only great when focused, it's not great for dips, at least atm in my experience. With the imbue die change a bit of dip into it might be worthwhile.

  6. #346
    Community Member Sqrlmonger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talnar00 View Post
    I'd argue that vistani and feydark are the most powerful universal trees, both are vastly better for dips. Vistani is great when focused on, and feydark is good when focused. Inqui is only great when focused, it's not great for dips, at least atm in my experience. With the imbue die change a bit of dip into it might be worthwhile.
    I pretty much agree with this entirely.

    It's why I think adding back some value to the 4-6 cores in Inquis is a good idea, because otherwise I think it's going to become a splash only tree.

  7. #347
    Community Member thegreatcthulhu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Shake stuff up = a ton of things in the game are now much more viable to build around, meaning players can focus on those now, which means more build variety

    Streamline = a ton of things in the game use shared, trackable stats instead of narrow and arbitrary ones that are only used for that one thing

    So we're trying to build a system that elevates a ton of new builds while letting those builds gain power from shared sources.



    Sure, seems reasonable to me.
    I don't suppose now would be a good time to consider adding a damage bonus or something else "more interesting" to Beckon Divinity. I think the general consensus is that it's kind of a "meh" Epic Moment compared to Unyielding's "Undying Vanguard" and of course Dreadnaught's "Action Hero". Not saying it needs to be as awesome as Action Hero, but it could at least provide something that is more on the "other end" of the spectrum compared to what Unyielding's epic moment provides. Alas, I know the focus of this update is on Imbues, so I'll understand if this is something that is going to have to wait until later. Or I'll also understand if you disagree with the notion of changing it altogether.

  8. #348
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    I would really like to see the law dice damage that is being removed from inquisitive added back to the capstone. Don't let players get the damage back with a splash, make them invest heavily in the tree if they want that much damage from it. But let players that don't want to stretch their build out by going into a tree that otherwise kind of sucks for them just to pick up a few extra dice still use the tree for DPS.

  9. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sqrlmonger View Post
    Based on what are you saying it is the most powerful tree? I feel like the word "universal" is doing most of the heavy lifting in this claim.

    Either way, you don't get the same damage, you get less. We are getting halved on dice and a 1/3rd increase on RP scaling. It would be like if I took half your money and then paid you 33 cents for every dollar you had left. You would end up with 66 cents for every dollar you started with (1 * 0.5 * 1.33).

    What we're being told is that if we redesign our builds by taking AP out of the tree and go elsewhere we could make up that imbue damage somewhere else. It's all opportunity cost, I have to give something to get something.

    This is why having Inquisitive give 5d of imbue damage for 23 points and then ask for 18 AP more for another +2 make it important to look at the value those enhancements and cores are offering otherwise. They have to be compared with what else is out there.

    Nothing I suggested is a full value for value replacement, core 4-6 are supposed to be the payoffs (5/6 in particular) for sticking with a tree and really investing in it.

    It's literally the worst place in a tree to take away and give nothing back. It requires the heaviest investment to reach and is supposed to be the big payoff.

    I understand your argument and i was a bit to harsh.
    Iam fine with some quality of live changes like you suggested. Not sure about imp def. Roll though, its a bit of a rogue only domain.

    I nevertheless want elaborate my claim a bit:
    its the fact that inquisitive is a universal that makes it so good. You get all the rewards from multiclassing while also be able to get C 5 and 6. And the rewards for multiclassing just increased higly with the imbue system.
    Inquisitive is good from lvl 1 to lvl 32, its very stabile ranged dps, which is superior to melee in reaper. Its already full of goodies, i was so envious to core 3 on any trapper for example or just compare core 4 to vistani:
    Crit bonus outside of tier 5 which is obviously great. But inquisitive gains a must have buff with true seeing and 1 imbue dice on top and that is after the downgrade..

    I take this example to point out, that inqusitive is already pretty overloaded with value compared to other universal trees. It has the ranged damage and the value and will profit more than any other imbue centric tree from the imbuechanges, as it already has 8 imbue dice and the best imbue in ranged/melee additionaly it comes with no downgrade due to multiclassing in conrast to Ek for example.
    And to take a realistic view on C5 and C6: no other tree in the game has more ranged power in these than inquisitive, (or more melee power than this gives ranged) and the classtrees reward for staying pure in contrast to inquisitive, so inquisitve C5 and C6 cores are still among the best in the whole game in this regard. And they still offer some more goodies.
    T5 offers another 20 ranged power and the 30% alacricity and an endless fusilade. (Who said vistani was so special about attack speed?)
    If you would strip all goodies from c5 and c6 but ranged power, people would play this, with all this damage and value inquisitive is as far away from becoming a splashtree as possible for sure.....

    Its true that the last cores lost some relative value, its not a constructed problem like i claimed and im fine with some quality of life additions.
    But if you take a look at what the tree already provides in comparison its neither a huge hit nor a significant problem as its still among the best in the whole game and still loaded with goodies
    Inquisitive is as the whole tree better than many classtrees, and thats what makes it the best universal tree in the game. Its not only great for dips like feydark, or vistani for haste boost. Full vistani is very good ofc. too and might be the second best universal tree.
    Last edited by TueNictGut; 10-15-2022 at 05:30 AM.

  10. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sqrlmonger View Post
    I pretty much agree with this entirely.

    It's why I think adding back some value to the 4-6 cores in Inquis is a good idea, because otherwise I think it's going to become a splash only tree.
    I would hope that if inquis gets any dice added back in deep cores they'll be restricted to "While in dual shooting style" to prevent them being gamewarping like how 41 vistani is just because the attack speed and many of the core bonuses aren't explicitly while using daggers or throwing knives

  11. #351
    Community Member grudgebear's Avatar
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    Favored Soul:
    (Warsoul Tier 4) 1d6 Fire damage, fire spellpower - replaces t4 active attack
    (Warsoul) Cores 2, 4, 5 grant +1 Dice
    (Warsoul T5) Wrathful Weapons now grants +3 dice instead of its separate proc, and turns your Fire imbue to Light for the duration


    Can Fav Souls do Light instead of Fire? And + Dices to Wrathful Weapons can't they go to Righteous weapons tree line instead of cores? This will leave room for splash'es like:

    3 Bard / 17 Fav Soul
    3 Bard / 3 Fighter / 14 Fav Soul
    6 Fighter / 14 Fav Soul

    P.S. Beloved of the Divine and Child of Faith can also provide some of the bonuses to wrathful weapons, both to Clerics and Warsouls.
    Last edited by grudgebear; 10-15-2022 at 05:11 AM.

  12. #352
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    Could enhancements that grant imbue dice be standardised to 1 point per dice? It's a bit messy how you've got some very expensive ones like dark apostate or improved/greater law being 2 points per dice then assassin being here's 3 dice in tier 2 for 3 points

  13. #353
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    Default bonus Dice

    So i didn't see where the actual 'Imbue Dice' was listed on character sheet.

    I saw that the bonus dice in the '+' section said zero on my inquisitive, so i just could not figure out if anything was actually working there.

    In the combat log, it appeared all the extra dice from sneak and other elements was coming up right, but i was only getting like 15-100 law damage...which was surprising. It wasn't until i read through the thread that it made sense that i only had the Epic Law Feat toggled on so it was prolly ignoring all of my inquisitive dice, but I couldn't find out where any of those dice were listed.

  14. #354
    Cosmetic Guru Aelonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    I can only do so much at a time. I promise I'm not ignoring you. The nature of feedback means that if I spend my time replying to literally every single post with "I am not ignoring you" then all the discussion would grind to a halt. You can trust that I read every post in the feedback threads and that I'm taking it to heart.
    I apologize I had a very busy day yesterday so I am only seeing this now. Thank you for engaging players on this aspect of the game changes.
    Blood Scented Axe Body Spray (Thelanis)
    Aelonwy - Wydavir - Metaluscious - Aertimys - Phantastique - Kaelaria - Lunaura - Aelurawynn - Saurscha - Crystalorn - Aurvaeyn - Vaelyns - Wyllowynd

  15. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lotoc View Post
    I would hope that if inquis gets any dice added back in deep cores they'll be restricted to "While in dual shooting style" to prevent them being gamewarping like how 41 vistani is just because the attack speed and many of the core bonuses aren't explicitly while using daggers or throwing knives
    Imbue dice are universal in this new system so this won't happen. Only the imbues themselves can have restrictions.

  16. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    so if you're confused about how this shakes out let us know and I'll post more math.
    Lynn, I'm confused how this shakes out compared to caster spell and spell power imbue scaling for heroic leveling.

    An inquisitive using IPS will have 25 ranged power at the end of heroics while AoEing, while a caster will have 670 or so spell power for imbue, and nuke at over 900.

    Can you post more math for a heroic level 18 inquisitive imbue using IPS vs. EK imbue, or vs. meteor, arcane tempest, tsunami, divine wrath, celestial bombardment, or ice flowers?


    Last edited by Tilomere; 10-15-2022 at 10:09 AM.

  17. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avocado View Post
    There seems to be some weird disparity in how scaling of die is being handled. Sometimes by spell power and sometimes by melee or ranged power. It seems that you did some thinking on which builds might get more benefit out of one vs other based on the tree they are put in. M
    Melee/ranged power max is significantly lower then spell power max. By maybe 3to1. All things that scale with melee/ranged power should maybe be 2x or 3x melee power scaling just so the imbues are significantly stronger for spell power stackers.

    Also fighter should get like a bleed imbue. Fighters are master of weapons and tactics. And it seems flavorful to give them some bleed imbue as much it does for barbs to get chaos imbue.
    I don't think the point is to add an imbue for everyone that scales exactly the same. It's very secondary for some builds. For example, an EK/AA imbue should continue to scale way higher than say paladin or rogue. This was by design before and should definitely not be changed.

  18. #358
    Community Member Archfae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Alrighty, brace yourselves, more math!

    Inquisitive Before: max 14d8 at 150%, which means 14 * 4.5 * 1.5 = 94.5 av damage
    Inquisitive Now: max 8d8 at 150%, which means 8 * 4.5 * 1.5 = 54 av damage

    So, lets poke at the scaling a bit. At 200%: 8 * 4.5 * 2 = 72 av damage

    This puts the break even point somewhere between 2 and 3 bonus dice:
    8 * 4.5 * 2 = 72 av damage
    9 * 4.5 * 2 = 81 av damage
    10 * 4.5 * 2 = 90 av damage
    11 * 4.5 * 2 = 99 av damage

    This means that each dice is worth 9 damage, versus before where each dice was worth 6.75, so the bonus dice mean more than they did before.
    This math is flawed. MP/RP/SP scalings cant be treated as a straight multiplier. This was debated ad nauseum back in the mid 20s updates with dev confirmation.

    The multiplier to damage for these at 100% follows:

    (100+(MP/RP/SP))/(100)

    And the scaling operates on your MP/RP/SP, so:

    (100+(scaling multiplier*MP/RP/SP))/(100).

    In other words, if you have 0 MP/RP/SP, a scaling difference of 150% or 200% makes zero difference. And if you have absurdly high amounts of them, then its a greater multiplier than if you only have low amounts.

    You can't treat these as straight multipliers unless MP/RP/SP are extremely high / tending towards infinity.

    With real world values of lets say 200 RP:

    (100+1.5*200)/100 = 4x at 150% scaling.

    (100+2*200)/100 = 5x.

    5/4 is a 25% increase. Whereas the math you show uses 2/1.5, which is a 33% increase. You are overestimating the effect of scaling on compensating for this change, resulting in an effective nerf when your aim is parity.

  19. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by Argavyon View Post
    Honestly, I'm glad on-hit self damage goes away. I don't think a lvl 3 barbarian can handle that much self damage, even less if they're a first lifer.
    At 20 imbue die or 20 self damage/hit * 1.3^10 (R10 damage scaling) * 2 (doublestrike) * 5 (group of 5 mobs cleaved) it would hit a player for 2757 damage per cleave at cap. I was hoping it would go live It would have been hilarious to see barbarians hitting themselves harder than mobs.

  20. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by misterski View Post
    The autocrit for orbs was missing on lammania (still present for runearms).
    Ah! thats too bad. It was pretty cool for bards mass cures and EK point blank casting. Any chance of having it back?

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