U57 Preview 1: Imbue Overhaul

[Kortar]

Alrighty, brace yourselves, more math!

Inquisitive Before: max 14d8 at 150%, which means 14 * 4.5 * 1.5 = 94.5 av damage
Inquisitive Now: max 8d8 at 150%, which means 8 * 4.5 * 1.5 = 54 av damage

So, lets poke at the scaling a bit. At 200%: 8 * 4.5 * 2 = 72 av damage

72 means that you'd only need 5 bonus dice to break even in the new system, since 94.5 - 72 = 22.5, and each dice is 4.5, and 22.5 / 4.5 = 5. If we kept the old scaling that would be (94.5 - 54) / 4.5 = 9 bonus dice to break even. So a step in the right direction, seem fairer?

Your math is wrong it is less then that.

At 200% scaling you need 3 bonus dice to overtake the old system. 11 * 4.5 * 2 = 99 avg damage.
It looks a lot better at 200% scaling. But inquisitives builds are not all equal some will get more than 3 bonus dice while others won't have any so it's hard to say if it's "fair" or not.

[Stravix]

Alrighty, brace yourselves, more math!

Inquisitive Before: max 14d8 at 150%, which means 14 * 4.5 * 1.5 = 94.5 av damage
Inquisitive Now: max 8d8 at 150%, which means 8 * 4.5 * 1.5 = 54 av damage

So, lets poke at the scaling a bit. At 200%: 8 * 4.5 * 2 = 72 av damage

72 means that you'd only need 5 bonus dice to break even in the new system, since 94.5 - 72 = 22.5, and each dice is 4.5, and 22.5 / 4.5 = 5. If we kept the old scaling that would be (94.5 - 54) / 4.5 = 9 bonus dice to break even. So a step in the right direction, seem fairer?

A few things: Only 2.5 bonus die would be needed to meet existing numbers* if 200% RP is applied, as 10.5 * 4.5 * 2 = 94.5.

That said this is specifically the damage granted per 100 RP, and does not accommodate for the lower base damage. If we assume ~150 RP (for shiggles) the damage comparison would be as follows:

Old: 14*4.5*(1+1.5*1.5) = 204.75 law damage

New: (8+Bdice)*4.5*(1+2*1.5) = 144 + Bdice*18 law damage, meaning a breakeven would actually occur at 3.375 bonus die.

breakeven would occur sooner (lower bonus die) at higher RP, but it's been long enough since i did a RP build I honestly have no clue on what a desirable endgame RP looks like.

Personally, I would prefer the breakeven to occur closer to 3 bonus die (which at 150 RP would be a 210% RP scaling btw), but that might just be me.

EDIT: apparently I was the one bad at math

[Talnar00]

Alrighty, brace yourselves, more math!

Inquisitive Before: max 14d8 at 150%, which means 14 * 4.5 * 1.5 = 94.5 av damage
Inquisitive Now: max 8d8 at 150%, which means 8 * 4.5 * 1.5 = 54 av damage

So, lets poke at the scaling a bit. At 200%: 8 * 4.5 * 2 = 72 av damage

72 means that you'd only need 5 bonus dice to break even in the new system, since 94.5 - 72 = 22.5, and each dice is 4.5, and 22.5 / 4.5 = 5. If we kept the old scaling that would be (94.5 - 54) / 4.5 = 9 bonus dice to break even. So a step in the right direction, seem fairer?

I think it's 2 extra die to nearly break even, 3 to surpass, based off your math.

1 extra imbue die: 9 * 4.5 * 2 = 81
2 extra imbue die: 10 * 4.5 * 2 = 90
3 extra imbue die: 11 * 4.5 * 2 = 99

Considering the amount of sources for extra dice in feats/ED's/filigrees/augs now the stab at inqui scaling seems to accomplish the goal.

I'd also like to compare current Jaded inqui to proposed change Jaded inqui, with the 200% scaling change.

Old Jaded Inqui: Max 12d8 at 150% to all enemies, 12 * 4.5 * 1.5 = 81 av damage
Current proposed Jaded inqui with scaling change: Max 7d6 at 200% to all enemies, 7 * 3.5 * 2 = 49 av damage (Lam inqui has jaded give +1 imbue die and make the die d6's to all enemies)

If for instance you kept jaded with extra imbue die, and always d8's: Max 6d6 at 200% to all enemies, 6 * 4.5 * 2 = 54 av damage

If you kept Jaded as d8's to all enemies and no extra imbues then that path would follow the needing 3 extra die to break even with old inqui av damage levels.
With the current Lam changes you'd need 5-6 extra die to break even in your example math for Jaded inqui with 200% scaling.

[Lynnabel]

Your math is wrong it is less then that.

At 200% scaling you need 3 bonus dice to overtake the old system. 11 * 4.5 * 2 = 99 avg damage.
It looks a lot better at 200% scaling. But inquisitives builds are not all equal some will get more than 3 bonus dice while others won't have any so it's hard to say if it's "fair" or not.

A few things: Only 2.5 bonus die would be needed to meet existing numbers* if 200% RP is applied, as 10.5 * 4.5 * 2 = 94.5.

That said this is specifically the damage granted per 100 RP, and does not accommodate for the lower base damage. If we assume ~150 RP (for shiggles) the damage comparison would be as follows:

Old: 14*4.5*(1+1.5*1.5) = 204.75 law damage

New: (8+Bdice)*4.5*(1+2*1.5) = 144 + Bdice*13.5 law damage, meaning a breakeven would actually occur at 4.5 bonus die.

breakeven would occur sooner (lower bonus die) at higher RP, but it's been long enough since i did a RP build I honestly have no clue on what a desirable endgame RP looks like.

Personally, I would prefer the breakeven to occur closer to 3 bonus die (which at 150 RP would be a 210% RP scaling btw), but that might just be me.

I think it's 2 extra die to nearly break even, 3 to surpass, based off your math.

1 extra imbue die: 9 * 4.5 * 2 = 81
2 extra imbue die: 10 * 4.5 * 2 = 90
3 extra imbue die: 11 * 4.5 * 2 = 99

Considering the amount of sources for extra dice in feats and ED's now the stab at inqui scaling seems to accomplish the goal.

I'd also like to compare current Jaded inqui to proposed change Jaded inqui, with the 200% scaling change.

Old Jaded Inqui: Max 12d8 at 150% to all enemies, 12 * 4.5 * 1.5 = 81 av damage
Current proposed Jaded inqui with scaling change: Max 7d6 at 200% to all enemies, 7 * 3.5 * 2 = 49 av damage (Lam inqui has jaded give +1 imbue die and make the die d6's to all enemies)

If for instance you kept jaded with extra imbue die, and always d8's: Max 6d6 at 200% to all enemies, 6 * 4.5 * 2 = 54 av damage

If you kept Jaded to be change to always d8's and no extra imbues then that path would follow the needing 3 extra die to break even with old inqui av damage levels.

You 3 are completely correct, my math was wrong on the break even point. I've edited my post for clarity.

[Stravix]

You 3 are completely correct, my math was wrong on the break even point. I've edited my post for clarity.

You good, math be a fickle thing sometimes.

That said, I really appreciate you doing that (Bringing up math time, that is)! Really helps ground the discussion and let us talk it through.

[misterski]

EKs still get the most die of any imbue source, and their choice of element, though yeah it's a lot more homogeneous now

They never said OHV was losing auto crit, they just said it was getting +1 die

The autocrit for orbs was missing on lammania (still present for runearms).

[Wdh]

I think just getting 5 more melee power is not equivalent to the old bane damage it used to give. I understand the bane damage has been moved around but I used to only use ravager for that bane damage. I think the cores should be looked at and have something else done with them. Maybe even add an imbue die or two because of the new system. Or maybe just more than 5 melee power. Maybe melee power and some "deadly" or a small amount of double strike because pure barbarians are a melee class without access to a double strike action boost. Even just more than 5 melee power would probably be good like 10 would be acceptable.

[Talnar00]

I'd like to suggest a possible change/implementation for the Half-elf's warlock dilettante imbue.
The 2 second cooldown it has makes it rather lackluster, however straight up removing that cooldown would make it very powerful for just a racial feat at the very start.
I'd suggest changing the Half-elf's Improved Warlock Dilettante enhancements to interact with it's imbue.

Example of possibility:
Improved Dilettante Warlock (Tier 1): Reduces Dilettante Imbue cooldown by 0.5 sec (2 Racial AP investment to get, 1 progression, 1 for ability)
Improved Dilettante Warlock (Tier 2): Further reduces Dilettante Imbue cooldown by 0.5 sec (6 Racial AP investment to get)
Improved Dilettante Warlock (Tier 4): Further reduces Dilettante Imbue cooldown by 1 sec (16 Racial AP investment to get, effectively removes cooldown)

Keeps the imbue at only d4 and no extra dice, but allows it to apply more frequently.

As it stands the 2 second cooldown kind of kills it as an appealing option, however no cooldown at all even with 16 AP investment might be too powerful, since then it would apply to all enemies hit by aoe spells. Would be interesting to test in a preview to see. Decreasing to full removal of the cooldown with Racial AP investment could make Half-elfs an appealing racial option for fire based casters instead of just Dragonborn or Tieflings.

[TueNictGut]

Will the inquisitive imbue be restricted to crossbows?
Otherwise the better scaling would make it the mandatory imbue for most ranged builds.

Actualy iam not sure if i got the baseconcept right:
imbues maybe restricted for specific fighthing styles or weapontypes but additional dice are available for all imbues?
Or can they be restricted too?

For example: If additional dice are unrestricted i could use the 2 to 6 dice from Aa tier 2 to 4 on any melee build with the apropriate ranger lvls.

Could someone pls enlighten me on this subject?

Thx in advance

[Stravix]

Will the inquisitive imbue be restricted to crossbows?
Otherwise the better scaling would make it the mandatory imbue for most ranged builds.

Actualy iam not sure if i got the baseconcept right:
imbues maybe restricted for specific fighthing styles or weapontypes but additional dice are available for all imbues?
Or can they be restricted too?

For example: If additional dice are unrestricted i could use the 2 to 6 dice from Aa tier 2 to 4 on any melee build with the apropriate ranger lvls.

Could someone pls enlighten me on this subject?

Thx in advance

Correct: Imbues may have specific weapon requirements, but +dice will be universal, so a Elven Wizard going EK and AA can get +dice from both trees and combine them for use on one of their imbues.

[nobodynobody1426]

You good, math be a fickle thing sometimes.

That said, I really appreciate you doing that (Bringing up math time, that is)! Really helps ground the discussion and let us talk it through.

Yes, this update needs to be extremely math heavy since so many numbers are being shifted around.

[Talnar00]

Will the inquisitive imbue be restricted to crossbows?
Otherwise the better scaling would make it the mandatory imbue for most ranged builds.

Actualy iam not sure if i got the baseconcept right:
imbues maybe restricted for specific fighthing styles or weapontypes but additional dice are available for all imbues?
Or can they be restricted too?

For example: If additional dice are unrestricted i could use the 2 to 6 dice from Aa tier 2 to 4 on any melee build with the apropriate ranger lvls.

Could someone pls enlighten me on this subject?

Thx in advance

Imbues themselves can be restricted to certain weapon/fighting styles.
For instance Knight of the Chalice light damage imbue requires use of a favored weapon.
Inqui imbue requires a light or heavy (non-repeating) crossbow.

The additional dice from Arcane Archer would work with any imbues. All sources of additional imbue dice work with all imbues.
Think of additional imbue dice as new stat that imbues use.

Say if a ranger decided to go inquisitive, but also invested in arcane archer for the extra dice, their inquisitive imbue would go from max 8d8 (from just inqui tree) to 14d8 if they grabbed all the extra imbue die in the AA tree.
Alternatively an Arcane archer could dip a few AP into inquisitive to grab so imbue dice for their own imbues.

[Stoner81]

Removed, please ignore. I think I read things wrong and got my wires crossed or something.

Stoner81.

[Black_Ninja]

The autocrit for orbs was missing on lammania (still present for runearms).

That's a shame. Thematically, those should really be switched. Offhand with runearm should boost imbue. That's what runearms do is imbue. Orb being the crit after vorpal feels better for that.

[Monkey_Archer]

What is still changing is the actual Law and Chaos ED Feats. We've got a pretty unique opportunity here to change them from badly-scaling small procs into something relatively unique, so...

Embodiment of Law: +2% doublestrike and doubleshot. If you are lawful, you also gain +2 imbue dice

Harbinger of Chaos: +3 PRR and MRR. if you are chaotic, you also gain +2 imbue dice

We hope very much that these feats encourage players to step out of the True Neutral experience a bit. We want to offer incentives for alignment to mean more in character building and these feats are an excellent place to try that kind of design out. You won't need to actually be the listed alignment to take the feats, just to get the imbue dice, so if you just want doublestrike or some PRR feel free to snag em as you level up.

I like the thinking, but those feats are far too weak to be taken. Theres no way you would ever take 3PRR/MRR over deific warding for in the level 28 slot, nor would you take 2% doublestrike over 5% doublestrike (available 6 levels earlier.)

Even if alignment matches, its still a nerf for most builds in most scenarios:

Old law: 10 or 30 damage scaling with 100% melee power
New law 7 or 9 damage scaling with 100 or 200% melee power depending on which imbue you have.

[Stravix]

That's a shame. Thematically, those should really be switched. Offhand with runearm should boost imbue. That's what runearms do is imbue. Orb being the crit after vorpal feels better for that.

Honestly, I don't see why (balance-wise) it couldn't do both. The auto-crit was good to save stats on spell crit for gishes, and the imbue dice is perfect as well.

[misterski]

Honestly, I don't see why (balance-wise) it couldn't do both. The auto-crit was good to save stats on spell crit for gishes, and the imbue dice is perfect as well.

I'm hoping it's just a mistake with the update to the feat description. I didn't have time to test to see if the auto crit for orb is still there despite the changed feat description.

[droid327]

Wait...

[Avocado]

I haven't found an answer to this yet, the notes states that agility engine is 1/2/3 damage dice. Does this replace its existing enhacment of 3/6/10 doubleshot and doublestrike or just add dice to it? Its a 10% damage nerf to anyone using this enhacement if it's replacing the current live one. It's a big nerf to builds that are already struggling. I dont see artis running around with any sense of the word "overperforming" or even viable . As a matter of fact i dont ever see artis... melee or ranged.

My great crossbow build takes agility engine for the doubleshot and it straight up nerfs my double from 100 to 90. That is a 10 percent nerf to my damage. The 3d6 die wouldn't even be worth the ap to me after the change. 10.5 damage scaling with maybe the 300 spell power I could get would be like 44 damage vs the live version which just gives me 10% more damage. I would very much like to retain my doubleshot unless your internal numbers suggest that artis with repeaters/great crossbows/hand and a half weapons need a 10% nerf to damage. Thanks for reading

[Stravix]

I haven't found an answer to this yet, the notes states that agility engine is 1/2/3 damage dice. Does this replace its existing enhacment of 3/6/10 doubleshot and doublestrike or just add dice to it? Its a 10% damage nerf to anyone using this enhacement if it's replacing the current live one. It's a big nerf to builds that are already struggling. I dont see artis running around with any sense of the word "overperforming" or even viable . As a matter of fact i dont ever see artis... melee or ranged.

My great crossbow build takes agility engine for the doubleshot and it straight up nerfs my double from 100 to 90. That is a 10 percent nerf to my damage. The 3d6 die wouldn't even be worth the ap to me after the change. 10.5 damage scaling with maybe the 300 spell power I could get would be like 44 damage vs the live version which just gives me 10% more damage. I would very much like to retain my doubleshot unless your internal numbers suggest that artis with repeaters/great crossbows/hand and a half weapons need a 10% nerf to damage. Thanks for reading

I sadly do not know about the loss of doubleshot, but I would want to say that it is a 5% nerf to your damage, not 10%, as going from 2x damage to 1.9x damage is not a 10% loss.