U57 Preview 1: Imbue Overhaul

[Kortar]

One option would be to lose AC instead of hit points. Would be of similar flavor. Or boost the dps from this ability to something exciting and take a dodge point or two. People will always hate a negative, but if the boost is good enough.. everyone has a price!

I mean sure if the base dice was d20 that could mechanically justify the HP drain since it would be much stronger than similar abilities.

What I really don't understand is why barbs are being singled out here. Other imbues could have thematic restrictions but they don't.
EK doesn't drain SP per hit (or get burned from all that fire on their sword), KotC doesn't only work on undead or outsiders, rangers imbue doesn't only work on their favored enemies, etc.
Not suggesting they do that but if they don't why the self harm on barbs?

[Monkey_Archer]

Also, maybe its just me being up too late, but... what if the Fighter imbue was just, like, +1 flat damage, +1 per imbue dice.

1% attack speed or +2 seeker would be more interesting

[droid327]

Also, maybe its just me being up too late, but... what if the Fighter imbue was just, like, +1 flat damage, +1 per imbue dice.

Do Fighters need that? Or are you giving them an imbue just for the sake of giving them an imbue?

Not every single build needs to necessarily benefit from Imbue die just because its the new shiny...

[Monkey_Archer]

Do Fighters need that? Or are you giving them an imbue just for the sake of giving them an imbue?

Not every single build needs to necessarily benefit from Imbue die just because its the new shiny...

New shiny is DDO development 101. Most builds (with the exception of EK and inquisitive) are getting a sizeable dps boost here. Fighters getting nothing would make them mostly obsolete as high dps is the only thing going for them atm.

I mostly agree with the essence of your comment though, melee builds have such a high gear requirement relative to casters already, adding one more thing to fit in isn't ideal...

[Shedrakzo]

Starting off, I’d like to say that for the most part, I like the idea of these changes for the sake of increasing potential multiclass build variety. Though I feel that in some instances, this will be a downgrade in actual versatility whereas having multiple instances of different damage procs was useful.

That being said, my first point of feedback is to agree with others in expressing agreement with the logic that every imbue you take should grant +1 dice. IE: A drow takes their racial poison imbue and Spellsword, they’ll then have an additional +1 dice with whichever stance they use.

Next, I’d like to move to the three racial imbues first:

1. Drow: Since this is a racial imbue, may we please get this to scale with the best of Melee/Ranged/Spellpower instead of having it mimic the assassin version? This would give it more universal appeal.
2. Shadar-Kai: Please make this a 1d8 to mirror the other two racial imbues, as the current patch notes are actually a downgrade from the current 1d6 this does on live. Additionally, add +1 dice to both ranks of Guile. This mirrors a 3d8 racial imbue similar to Drow and Tieflings in my proposal. And also change this to be the best of Melee/Ranged/Spellpower for the universal appeal of being a racial please.
3. Tieflings: For both Tieflings, please change the first core to grant you a 1d8 imbue stance for Fire/Sonic respectively. Then change the other two cores to provide +1 dice to fill out at 3d8 to match the other two racial stances. As a stretch goal, it would be neat if the T5 ‘X’ Sovereign enhancements could change the damage type dealt with this imbue stance.

While still on the topic of racial imbues: since the Half Elf Warlock Dilettante is maintaining the 2 second CD, can we change this to a 1d8 to match the other racial imbues? Another bonus request: Could we get a multiselector for the Warlock Dilettante to be Fire or Electric based? Perhaps tie it to having the Mark of Storm, but this is more flavor within flavor options.

To echo a sentiment brought up earlier in the Enlightened Spirit changes regarding Celestial Spirit, please make sure this is tied to the actual capstone and not the form. If an Abyssal Warlock is level 20 and takes Enlightened Spirit as their main tree, they might as well be allowed to benefit here this time around.

Alright, moving on next to the classes that will have multiple imbues for different trees. My suggestion here is to put a dice increase in the capstone for these trees to make up for not always having dice increases in their main tree. For example: +3 imbue dice in the Ninja Spy capstone. This would offset the fact a Ninja Spy will otherwise have to invest in the cores of Henshin to increase their poison damage. Admittedly at the moment, this would only affect Monk (Ninja Spy), Bard (Swashbuckler), and technically Ranger (Tempest) but it’s food for thought, balance-wise.

Enhancements not covered in the OP:

1. Inflict Weariness - Palemaster: (1d8+1) negative damage on hit. Will this be turned into an imbue scaling on Negative Spellpower?
2. Kinetic Bond - Occult Slayer: 1d20 force damage on hit scales with melee power. Convert into a force damage imbue and perhaps put an imbue dice bonus in the capstone?
3. Greater Hunger - Soul Eater: Your melee, ranged, and Eldritch Blast attacks do 2d6 Chaotic damage when striking an opponent marked by your Consume attack. Will this become an imbue similar to Spiritual Retribution?
4. Music Box - Swashbuckler: Passive: While Swashbuckling with a Rune Arm in your off hand, your Rune Arm Weapon Imbue deals an additional 1d6 Sonic damage. Would this just get changed to +1 imbue dice? This would probably be the best option for synergy with the changes to both Battle Engineer and Swashbuckler.
5. Divine Purpose Scourge - Aasimar Scourge: your weapon attacks deal 3d6 extra Light damage that scales with the higher of your Melee or Ranged Power. On Vorpal, enemies are Blinded. Change this from a charge based ability to an imbue stance, perhaps?

On to Epic Destiny based questions and feedback:

1. Embodiment feats: Please allow these to scale with the best of Melee/Ranged/Spellpower. Given these are epic feats and this entire systemic change is about opening up more variety why not try it for a Lamannia patch to test the balance from this?
2. Additional ED imbue die: I like the +3 in the Primal Mantle. Would we be able to get the bonuses in Divine Crusader and Legendary Dreadnought also increased to +3s and type all ED granted dice as their own ‘type’ so that they don’t stack? This means we have a place to pick up imbue dice in all 4 destiny spheres. Though I still think we could use dice in Shiradi and maybe Fatesinger.
3. I won’t touch the Law of the Divine situation, but it’s currently not the only ‘imbue’ I’m worried about provided by a destiny that could see inclusion in this system. The Rule of Law could be included as well; perhaps changing the damage dice and cooldown?

And the final items:

1. As a few other people have mentioned, the change on the Sentient Filigrees is a bit of a nerf. I can see in some instances where scaling-wise it is a boon, but perhaps you could meet us halfway on this one? Currently we’ve got 14d6 non-scaling damage at endgame and a proposed 1d6 (that will scale into your other imbue bonuses). I propose changing this from a +1 dice to +3 dice. It’s not a massive change, but it certainly adds a bit more value when scaling is considered to replace the potential flexibility damage from doing an additional damage type previously to your imbue damage.
2. Item sets to potentially add to the list include: Temple of Elemental Evil (particularly the legendary ones), One With the Swarm (this would definitely add some value given the bees do not currently scale with Melee Power or Spellpower), and Mantle of Suulomades (soften the old blow when this set lost sneak attack dice?).
3. Just checking for clarification: All 3 of the emeralds from Hunt or Be Hunted will now just be a generic +1 enhancement bonus, no longer specifically tied to a type of imbue stance?

[SpartanKiller13]

Feats:

• (Offhand Versatility) - Orb gains +1 Imbue dice

Is this replacing Versatile Empowerment?

I don't know how many people are using it, but I really enjoy VE as a proc and I have a raid toon build around VE w/Gruin + Ruin.

[Azarak]

Will imbues still not scale with crit making them terrible?


Does half-elf warlock imbue mean that you can scale dmg done on spells by imbue dice no matter where you get them, like for instance from a melee tree and does this spell dmg crit since it's part of a spell?

[FuzzyDuck81]

Not bad ideas in the slightest. Part of me thinks that if we give Fighters an imbue it should be a fighter bonus feat, yanno? I feel like having them wait until epics is a little too far off though.

Since pure fighters are all about using their weapons, maybe an imbue that doesn't give elemental or weird esoteric damage types but straight up physical damage instead? Another option could be that the fighter-linked imbue gives some level of +tactics DCs per imbue die, which would make for some interesting possibilities for multiclassed characters in heroics as well boost a number of abilities across destinies in epics.

[Artos_Fabril]

Also, maybe its just me being up too late, but... what if the Fighter imbue was just, like, +1 flat damage, +1 per imbue dice.

If "+imbue" is intended to be just another stat to gear for going forward there are a few options depending on how prevalent it's expected to be. If Fighter is the only class without one, it could jack up class balance even more, especially when by U65 there's imbue dice on every gear set. On the other hand, if imbues just become a sort of unification of all the different types of extra damage without much being added, it won't be a big deal no to give one to fighters, but it will look like yet another orphaned system.

[Wizard1406]

@ Lynnabel:

Can you please say something about Inquisitive law dice nerf?

Must it be reduced because you want to normalize imbue dice among specs? (not the best choice IMHO - too much homogenization)

If so, then I think inquisitive needs damage added through other means as a compensation.

Thanks.

[TueNictGut]

Alright, moving on next to the classes that will have multiple imbues for different trees. My suggestion here is to put a dice increase in the capstone for these trees to make up for not always having dice increases in their main tree. [B]For example: +3 imbue dice in the Ninja Spy capstone. This would offset the fact a Ninja Spy will otherwise have to invest in the cores of Henshin to increase their poison damage.

I would like to oppose forcing ninjaspy even more into taking the capstone, its not a defining feature to be pure monk, when you have no relevant ability in the whole tree scaling of monk lvls like the other monktrees have.

On the contrary i would suggest to add something spicy dice related( like +3dice and 10%melee and ranged power, which this tree is totally lacking) in t5 and open melee ninja for multiclass by changing deadly striker to give +1multiplyer to onehanded melee weapons you are centerd with or just shortswords and kamas.

If your data produces that shurican gets op with all the dices restrict the dice to melee, like AA dice should be restricted to ranged in my opinion.

At its current state this tree is either 11ap worth for veil (and thats very rare too, as the effect is accesible through more and more items or destinies)or only used by shuricanbuilds. With my 2 simple suggestions this could be much more viable, building at least melee ninja around Ninjapoison, which might not be very powerful as the tree stll would lack in comparison but surely would be a lot of fun.

Thx for considering this

[SpardaX]

I mean sure if the base dice was d20 that could mechanically justify the HP drain since it would be much stronger than similar abilities.

What I really don't understand is why barbs are being singled out here. Other imbues could have thematic restrictions but they don't.
EK doesn't drain SP per hit (or get burned from all that fire on their sword), KotC doesn't only work on undead or outsiders, rangers imbue doesn't only work on their favored enemies, etc.
Not suggesting they do that but if they don't why the self harm on barbs?

If it makes you feel any better (Or worse), there is still one other imbue that harms the user. Though not as dramatic or bad as damage, the Henshin Mystic's imbue still lowers their ki generation, despite being mainly fire, which unless Im mistaken, is like, the third worst damage type in the game. Granted it does some force damage on crit, so I guess it'll be seen whether it's worth it or not.

[Xezom]

You're hitting the nail on the head here for a lot of the "why" of this overhaul. Its fun to give support to the fun procs in the game and having a centralized way to offer that support means that players can mix and match in new ways, and this system lets us boost those fun abilities without overloading the game. We're ideally trading visual clutter for meaningful power in those cases - Lighting the Candle and Sting of the Ninja and Iced Edges and Storm Dancer are all cool, flavorful, fun, iconic, and deserve a system that allows players to use those abilities as the cornerstone of the aesthetic of their character's identity without giving up raw strength for their trouble.

Also, maybe its just me being up too late, but... what if the Fighter imbue was just, like, +1 flat damage, +1 per imbue dice.

I would agree with this as a premise, but in application it's not exactly accurate.

I definitely like the idea of reducing the string of numbers down to more impactful but fewer numbers. However, without adequate support within reasonable means those cool, flavorful, fun, iconic imbues stay what they are right now. While yes, this allows you to go out of your way to pick up dice from other sources that then ramp up those things, the question is: it it healthy for the game to expect players to do that to get meaningful impact from imbues? And if the expectation is that players won't or shouldn't, nothing changed but the name tag.

I'm not saying that every imbue will lead to needing to splash into every possible tree to grab as many dice as possible, but there are clear outliers even after this overhaul is completed, simply by the nature of class crossover/compatibility/enhancement tree synergy. In addition to that, I would argue that you most certainly are giving up raw strength in some cases. Inquis primary example of this, but that should be abundantly clear by this point.

Finally, to me, what makes for fun procs are more than just damage. Things like the endless night jewels, snowpeak jewels, and the non-damaging aa toggles are all interesting effects/procs. The AA CC toggles are the most interesting of the "Imbues" in the game imo, and yet they are receiving absolutely nothing in this pass (as of this preview anyway). I am all for standardization, but I am firmly against homogenization. Every Class, every tree, every style should have a distinct defining trait that it does better than others at the cost of being worse at other things. Evening out on hit damage is one thing for balance purposes, but with trees and styles that are defined by their imbues like AA and EK, that evening out diminishes their uniqueness.

[Triaxx2]

Is it possible to make guard effects scale with Imbue Dice?

[Tyrande]

@ Lynnabel:

Can you please say something about Inquisitive law dice nerf?

Must it be reduced because you want to normalize imbue dice among specs? (not the best choice IMHO - too much homogenization)

If so, then I think inquisitive needs damage added through other means as a compensation.

Thanks.

/exactly

Maybe replace the missing 6 dice damage in Law on your side +2 dice, Improved Law +3, Greater Law +4? If that's not possible, maybe reduce the load time from 5s down to 1s in No Holds Barred?

Right now, it sounds like a 6 dice nerf for capped inquisitives...

[Fisto_Mk_I]

Most builds (with the exception of EK and inquisitive) are getting a sizeable dps boost here.

All, not most build lose 16d6 from filigree sets nerf. For me personally, it's very hard see as sizeable DPS boost.

[Kortar]

/exactly

Maybe replace the missing 6 dice damage in Law on your side +2 dice, Improved Law +3, Greater Law +4? If that's not possible, maybe reduce the load time from 5s down to 1s in No Holds Barred?

Right now, it sounds like a 6 dice nerf for capped inquisitives...

I think the rationale is that Inquisitives can get those dices back from their class trees now that they are more widely available.
They had to nerf inquisitive under the new system since the +dice you get from it is not limited to crossbow users anymore. (as long as you have another imbue ability you can activate)
Even builds that shouldn't synergize well with Inquisitive can benefit from the +dice.
Since a lot of class trees aren't very good to begin with I think you will see a lot of melee builds put some points in inquisitive for extra dice.

A solution to this would be to increase RP scaling for inquisitive imbue or increase the base dice to compensate for the loss.

[Xgya]

Also, maybe its just me being up too late, but... what if the Fighter imbue was just, like, +1 flat damage, +1 per imbue dice.

I'd suggest to make Weapon Spec that if it didn't interfere further with people that wanted niche builds, like a Fighter Elven Arcane Archer, or a Fighter Inquisitive.
It's the quintessential "Fighters fight more gooder than others" feat.
It would also mean this extra damage can't crit, which should but might not be fully compensated by the better scaling.

Then again, tacking the tiny imbue on top of the feat might work.

OR, if we want it to cost a deeper splash into Fighter, the Greater Weapon Focus as-is is pretty lacklustre. Giving it some oomph since you've stuck to Fighter that long just might help?

[Ereshkigal]

So. Cursed Words ( from the Dark Apostate tree ) says it will do 6d6 Bane damage to undead per "Sheathe" die.

What is "Sheathe" dice? Is this supposed to be "Imbue" dice? If so as a Dark Apostate Cleric, I can get +9 Imbue dice from the DA Tree, and another +1 Imbue die from the Warcaster Tree, so are we talking 60d6 base damage to undead for zero spellpoints?

I would assume this scales with spellpower because the SLA does allow for Empower, Maximize,and Intensify, but the description doesn't mention it.

In practice the combat text doesn't say it is doing Bane damage. Rather it states that it does Light damage.

Additionally, it seems like it is not scaling with Imbue dice, so Perhaps sheathe dice is something else? In game, the combat screen says I'm doing between 40 and 100 Light damage normally, and critting for ~350.

Toggling the metamagics on and off make no difference in the damage to undead by Cursed Words, even though they are listed on the shortcut as something you can turn on or off.

Maybe remove those flags from the SLA if they aren't supposed to be doing anything -- or fix it so they apply if it is supposed to -- as it stands it's just not correct.

For referenece, my light spellpower is 608+ and my light crit damage multiplier is 45.

Then along with that,will Turn Undead also be granting 100 temporary hitpoints with Dark Judgment III from the Dark Apostate Enhancement tree?

When I use Turn Undead in game the combat chat states Contact with the divine has granted you temporary hitpoints, yet I do not actually receive any temporary hitpoints.

Just curious.

Otherwise, it seems like the changes thus far will not have any effect on a typical light/alignment based Cleric. Just business as usual.

Thanks

[dlsidhe]

Yes, the filigree sets still give their spellpower, its just the on-hit part that's getting swapped out. I think adding more dice elsewhere in the EDs is a fine idea, any ideas where it'd go?

Shadowdancer Dance in the Dark tier 3 would be a place to stick imbue dice. Dark Imbuement would be another - maybe add a flat one die for the enhancement and have it trigger additional imbue dice when active? There's a place there for temporary additional imbue dice equal to your number of SA dice as well, maybe as part of the Shadowdancer epic moment?