U57 Preview 1: Imbue Overhaul

[nobodynobody1426]

Correct. I probably wasn't clear in that post, I simply meant that the imbue itself has higher potential. When you factor in losing the above scion damage, and potentially losing dripping with magma for the new set bonus dice, and swapping filigrees (probably a 5 melee power loss) its an overall net nerf to EK dps, on top of the hp nerf .

It gets worse as you scale into epics and realize some of the things they are nerfing scale based on epic / legendary levels.

I'm most familiar with KoTC Paladin, I only ran EK a few times to cap. A 32 KoTC paladin could have the following on-hit damage, using 300 MP.

7D6 Light damage scaling with 200% MP, 171.5 damage
12D6 Law damage scaling with 200% MP, 294 damage <- scales with epic/legendary levels
14D6 Filigree bonus with no scaling, 49 damage <- scales with epic/legendary levels
Total: 514.5 per hit

Proposed changes (assuming T5 and EoL adds 2 dice, and filigree adds 1 dice)
9d6 Light damage scaling with 200% MP, 220.5 damage

Now most Filigree bonus damage isn't worth using in the first place, but included to show scaling differences since Lyn referenced we "could" use it to add 3.5 damage to our numbers.

Trying to add "Extra" dice just ends up lowering melee power / build strength and results in even lower total damage, above is best case scenario. I don't see Lyn adding 1D6 per epic / legendary to everyone's imbue dice so it's pretty much impossible for them to use the T5 without causing a big nerf.

[Xezom]

On one hand, it takes away the flavor and uniqueness of a some classes/builds when everyone is running an imbue. EK/AA/etc. were all about the damage toggle; now it won't be their big difference from everyone else. And without multiple imbue toggles active at the same time, builds that had that going on will no longer exist. It'll be a fairly generic setup with everyone is running an imbue and just a different damage type for each build.

On the other hand, it'll make balancing builds and classes much easier (along with balancing fights). If everyone is limited to one imbue toggle and the devs know the limit of how many dice are involved, they can balance quests and raids around the damage output; and they can adjust damage output game-wide by shifting scaling/dice availability quickly without having to rebalance every DPS setup by hand. New classes & archetypes will be easier to balance since it's a simplified system.

So for the devs, this is probably an amazing change for maintaining balance, designing raid fights, etc. But for players, we definitely lose some flavor builds and uniqueness of some trees.

I definitely agree. This overhaul seems more like a dev focused change than a player focused change, in that it seems to be more designed to help future development more than it does opening up new, exciting, or interesting builds.

In the case of EK/AA that were already the kings of imbues, I would say that this overhaul is going to make them feel a lot less special. No denying that they will be "basically" as powerful as before because... math, but now with everything having the potential to be an imbue bot (or at least more things having the potential) it takes some of the spice out of those, at least for me. I would love to see these two get some extra love on top of this imbue pass just to make sure they stay the Kings of their respective roles. I'm not very well versed in EK so I can't really give good feedback or suggestions there but on the AA it would be cool to have the non-damaging toggles stay as Non-Imbues to allow them to be used along side the AA ele toggles. Something that sets them apart to keep them unique, not just a splash tree that every character that wants extra Imbue dice will have to take.

Also, the inquis number changes/nerfs are a tough pill to swallow.

[Kortar]

Not to worry, its 1 flat damage now. Still dangerous! But not as dangerous. I might even also be nice and add a 1 second internal cooldown on that damage to really soften the ability up.

Even with the 1 second cooldown that's still 6 times the HP cost compared to live.

The original vicious weapon enhancement did double the damage of other weapon enhancement in the game but at the cost of one HP per hit.
The barb imbue does not have the damage output to justify this, at 4d8 it is the weakest imbue.
There's no drawback to using other imbues that deal more damage why should the barb one do?

[helpfulguy1234]

Even with the 1 second cooldown that's still 6 times the HP cost compared to live.

The original vicious weapon enhancement did double the damage of other weapon enhancement in the game but at the cost of one HP per hit.
The barb imbue does not have the damage output to justify this, at 4d8 it is the weakest imbue.
There's no drawback to using other imbues that deal more damage why should the barb one do?

And does that self inflicted damage scale in reaper?

Just lose this. Barbs already have to lose hp to use their core abilities and sup cleave. And while you're at it, can you make frenzy/d frenzy last longer than a minute? Barbs are people too. We lose 30 hp every minute just keeping those up.

[Arlathen]

Not bad ideas in the slightest. Part of me thinks that if we give Fighters an imbue it should be a fighter bonus feat, yanno? I feel like having them wait until epics is a little too far off though.

Seriously, if we have time to give Fighters a Fighters-only Imbue Feat (and I'm all for that), can we not get something done in this patch to add a element-specific Imbue toggle to the Scion Feats that are losing any Imbue status in favour of some extra Imbue dice?!

[Kortar]

And does that self inflicted damage scale in reaper?

Just lose this. Barbs already have to lose hp to use their core abilities and sup cleave. And while you're at it, can you make frenzy/d frenzy last longer than a minute? Barbs are people too. We lose 30 hp every minute just keeping those up.

Just tried it on lam and the damage does scale in reaper, I was taking 8 damage in the dojo (from 8 imbue dice 4 from barb / 4 from inquisitive) but taking 9 damage in a quest on R1.

[helpfulguy1234]

Just tried it on lam and the damage does scale in reaper, I was taking 8 damage in the dojo (from 8 imbue dice 4 from barb / 4 from inquisitive) but taking 9 damage in a quest on R1.

Thanks for checking that.

So higher skull we're talking around 48-90 damage depending on skull PER HIT with those dice.

I guess with that 1 second cooldown that's only 2900-5400 per minute self inflicted.

Is that meeting the intended design goal there for the developers? I'm really asking.

[droid327]

Part of me thinks that if we give Fighters an imbue it should be a fighter bonus feat, yanno?

If everyone has innate access to an Imbue, then an Imbue will just become pro forma, and that reduces dimensionality in builds

Its just going to be like Trances...they're de facto required for martial builds, and its not really good for the game. We should be trying to move towards diversity, not homogeneity. Imbues should be one way to build DPS, but it shouldn't be an interchangeable part of everyone's DPS. Or else why not just give everyone a generic "Imbue" feat at L1, and then just make it all +dice after that?

[jskinner937]

If you are stuck on introducing imbues, can this just be a new universal tree?

[helpfulguy1234]

This is starting to remind me of the whole builder/spender thing they tried to shove down our throats, making everything exactly the same.

This seems like change for the sake of change.

[Lotoc]

If everyone has innate access to an Imbue, then an Imbue will just become pro forma, and that reduces dimensionality in builds

Its just going to be like Trances...they're de facto required for martial builds, and its not really good for the game. We should be trying to move towards diversity, not homogeneity. Imbues should be one way to build DPS, but it shouldn't be an interchangeable part of everyone's DPS. Or else why not just give everyone a generic "Imbue" feat at L1, and then just make it all +dice after that?

I think the idea with the imbue system is right now so many trees have them (AA, VC, EK and now DA and SF) and systems have recently been put in place to support three of them and putting similar things in future trees or classes means having to revisit EDs and augments and etc. just to add specified support to those trees, vs just making a system to support said imbues.
Almost all of the imbues that are actually being proposed are for things that are basically imbues already except they didn't get any form of dice progression like Lighting the Candle and Iced Edges, making all these pseudoimbues that already existed scale up to a relevant level leads to a potential massive damage creep and some very unhealthy build options unless they end up exclusive with each other.
Consider what would happen if say you were a bard/wiz/rogue inquisitive and you had the poison, sonic, cold, law, sneak and ek dice all going at once per attack that hits, that's not only a visual mess of on hit effects but I imagine it's also liable to cause lag issues.

The thing is though, I do agree fighters aren't really in need of an imbue, the reason so many classes have on hit effects is they can't match the raw weapon damage a fighter can do so they rely on ridealong effects to close that gap a little. Fighters don't really thematically use fancy tricks to fight, they just fight good.

[Lynnabel]

I think the idea with the imbue system is right now so many trees have them (AA, VC, EK and now DA and SF) and systems have recently been put in place to support three of them and putting similar things in future trees or classes means having to revisit EDs and augments and etc. just to add specified support to those trees, vs just making a system to support said imbues.
Almost all of the imbues that are actually being proposed are for things that are basically imbues already except they didn't get any form of dice progression like Lighting the Candle and Iced Edges, making all these pseudoimbues that already existed scale up to a relevant level leads to a potential massive damage creep and some very unhealthy build options unless they end up exclusive with each other.
Consider what would happen if say you were a bard/wiz/rogue inquisitive and you had the poison, sonic, cold, law, sneak and ek dice all going at once per attack that hits, that's not only a visual mess of on hit effects but I imagine it's also liable to cause lag issues.

The thing is though, I do agree fighters aren't really in need of an imbue, the reason so many classes have on hit effects is they can't match the raw weapon damage a fighter can do so they rely on ridealong effects to close that gap a little. Fighters don't really thematically use fancy tricks to fight, they just fight good.

You're hitting the nail on the head here for a lot of the "why" of this overhaul. Its fun to give support to the fun procs in the game and having a centralized way to offer that support means that players can mix and match in new ways, and this system lets us boost those fun abilities without overloading the game. We're ideally trading visual clutter for meaningful power in those cases - Lighting the Candle and Sting of the Ninja and Iced Edges and Storm Dancer are all cool, flavorful, fun, iconic, and deserve a system that allows players to use those abilities as the cornerstone of the aesthetic of their character's identity without giving up raw strength for their trouble.

Also, maybe its just me being up too late, but... what if the Fighter imbue was just, like, +1 flat damage, +1 per imbue dice.

[Kelledren]

Even with the 1 second cooldown that's still 6 times the HP cost compared to live.

The original vicious weapon enhancement did double the damage of other weapon enhancement in the game but at the cost of one HP per hit.
The barb imbue does not have the damage output to justify this, at 4d8 it is the weakest imbue.
There's no drawback to using other imbues that deal more damage why should the barb one do?

One option would be to lose AC instead of hit points. Would be of similar flavor. Or boost the dps from this ability to something exciting and take a dodge point or two. People will always hate a negative, but if the boost is good enough.. everyone has a price!

[Junk]

I would guess entirely intentional and not open to change or debate.

I would like a comment on this also my 12 favored soul/4alchmist/4rogue is taking 6 dice and 72 hit points.

[Nandos]

Lynnabel,

Tier 3 Vanguard enhancement: Shield Riposte: While missed in melee while wearing a shield, deals [1d4/1d6/1d8] bludgeoning damage to your attacker. Damage scales with Melee Power.

Any chance this could be buffed and/or made into an imbue? It would be nice to give shield users something.

[Lotoc]

The imbue has always ever scaled with Evil Alignment spell power aka Light, but that brings up a pretty good point that I think would make the entire game a little bit more cohesive:

Should negative spellpower take over governing Chaos and Evil damage instead of Light spellpower?

This would mean that the current spell power schema is:

• Light: also Good and lawful
• Negative: also evil and chaos
• Repair: also rust
• Force: also physical

Had thought more on this idea, definitely consider it specifically for Divine Disciple cores so Dark DD can scale their t4 SLA option better.
I'm personally a fan of the blighted power/lore items (bramblecasters and blightstaff) because of the flavor of them granting evil, nullification and acid, itemisationwise I'd say it's fine to design some items that break the mold of alignments being stuck with light when it comes to alternative groupings the only issue with them is alignment spell damage isn't really fleshed out enough to make said items very desirable. (the strongest alignment spells are fourth level or warlock blasts/SLAs)

[BananaHat]

Shintao imbue idea:

Grant additional healing from Fists of Light, it sure would be nice to have it scale better. Trade off offensive damage for better punch-healing, have it still compete for the imbue slot. You would just get an additional 1d2 healing per imbue die (or per however many die seems balanced similar to Shiradi scaling per 7) and you could put +1 imbue die along with the Elemental Curatives. There is an open slot in the 4th Tier where you could put it.

[BananaHat]

For the Offhand Versatility, that's in addition to the auto-spell crit thing, right? I have a single weapon fighting wizard with orb off-hand that heavily uses this ability (fight fight fight until it procs, then cast cast cast until it is done). Not the most effective build, but certainly fun and different which is what you are trying to encourage.

I'd also put out the option that Palemasters should be able to buy into this imbue system with their Inflict Weariness core choice that adds negative damage/energy drain vorpals to attacks. Heck, it would be super cool and thematic if it scaled and added additional negative levels scaling off of the imbue die so that it could potentially be more useful in the higher levels where monsters heal negative levels almost instantly.

[Oliphant]

Could not really decipher what this will really do. Maybe this might help: Make a (good) universal melee tree.

[Lotoc]

For the Offhand Versatility, that's in addition to the auto-spell crit thing, right? I have a single weapon fighting wizard with orb off-hand that heavily uses this ability (fight fight fight until it procs, then cast cast cast until it is done). Not the most effective build, but certainly fun and different which is what you are trying to encourage.

I'd also put out the option that Palemasters should be able to buy into this imbue system with their Inflict Weariness core choice that adds negative damage/energy drain vorpals to attacks. Heck, it would be super cool and thematic if it scaled and added additional negative levels scaling off of the imbue die so that it could potentially be more useful in the higher levels where monsters heal negative levels almost instantly.

Had been thinking about that core. The negs kinda are worthless in epics no matter how high they go unless you get enough to instakill as they'll likely fall off by the next vorpal.
However it being an imbue with vampirism that scales with how many dice you have would be very thematic and cool, 1d8 damage and heal 1dx per dice on hit, the drawback of using the imbue being how many enemies are immune or healed by it to warrant the higher end dice and it having said utility.
(And with this can justify scion of the shadowfel giving dice like other caster scions)