U57 Preview 1: Imbue Overhaul

[Lynnabel]

You cant just take away 2 Strength from Frenzy (active) and leave it like that, at the very least it needs to be rolled into Death Frenzy, so the total is unchanged 6 Strength (while active).

Barb already struggle to hit their tactics DCs even maxed out item swap for trance and fully boosted strength.

Sure, sounds completely reasonable to me.

[nobodynobody1426]

Dont forget about T5 DC, that's pretty much handcuffed with EoL for all practical purposes

So its not just the 10+20 damage on the feat itself that needs to be preserved, its also the 10d6 scaling damage with the feat + T5 Destiny. Which is a pretty high opportunity cost, so it needs to have a commensurate value...

Good gravy, such pessimism! I genuinely find your analysis spot-on - its why everyone is talking about the Law feat and not the Chaos one - and its not a bad idea to divorce the two entirely. Its why I am leaning towards changing the law/chaos feats into something that isn't an imbue at all. I would only ask that you fine folks help me help you by keeping this a fun and lighthearted dialogue. If things get too spicy in here it makes it hard for me to have these discussions. There's still plenty of time for adjustments in every direction.

My perspective is based entirely on past examples of mixing multiple non-related things together and the inevitable explosion it creates.

If you guys really want to fix / standardize on-hit procs as imbues, then lots of math needs to be involved. Firstly all imbue dice needs to be set at the same base value, 1D6 preferably, then have a damage bonus attached to it as needed. 1D6+1 comes out mathematically the same as 1D8, 1D6+2 is 1D10 and so forth. This lets you adjust the values by both adding more dice and raising the per-dice bonus incrementally, much more flexibility then "just add more dice". Once all imbues are on the same dice system, we can start using low level / easy stuff to add more dice but using higher level / more restrictive picks to add dice damage bonus. EK is a good example, it starts out at 1D6 but can use C4/5/6 (12/18/20) to add +1 to that damage bonus each making it 1D6+1, 1D6+2, 1D6+3 at each step. The imbues with 1D8 would be converted to 1D6 then later in the tree get a +1 added, maybe at a T5 or C5/6.

Ultimately, dice should be cheap, dice damage bonus should be expensive.

As for the 28 Law / Chaos feats, the feats themselves can be anything, maybe grant their own law / chaos imbues with a +1 dice damage bonus attached since they are level 28 ED feats. The really important part is how they interact with the T5's in ED tree's, the things that are supposed to be powerful and exclusive because you can only get one. The DS T5 is 1 dice per epic / legendary level, which is balanced if left alone but OP if added to another imbue. It might be best to have the enhancement bonus proc a completely separate thing tied to the DC Holy Mantle and not an imbue. The enhancement would give you the imbue if you didn't have it, and if you did it would upgrade the Mantle to give that extra damage.

[dkyle]

Bug: Tiefling Scoundrel Imbue is automatically active upon taking the Enhancement. It only turns off if you activate then deactivate the imbue. But please make these enhancements actually useful (either not an imbue, or add +1 Imbue dice at thresholds) instead of just fixing.

[Xezom]

I'm going to wait til preview 2 to test out the DA (unfortunately didn't get a chance to this go around).

Some general thoughts on the system change:

1) For the Majority of "Simple" Imbue characters, this system won't make much of a difference when it comes down to DPS. For those Splash all the Imbue type characters I'll be interested to see how it goes.
2) Definitely agree that since Imbues will be exclusive from each other, Each imbue you pick up should also increase your existing Imbue Dice by 1. So if you are running a Inquis Arty for example, and you have law on your side and pick up the imbue from Battle engineer you should gain 1 law on your side die by taking it. The same would be true if you took the Arty Electric imbue. Law on your side should grant you 1 Electric Die. Granted that if this point is put into place, the AA will gain some extra damage from its non-damaging imbues. I don't think that's a problem as AA could use some love.
3) On the Arcane Archer. Essentially nothing is changing for a pure AA with the system as is. I personally would love if the non-damaging toggles did NOT count as imbues. This would be a flavorful way of adding some power to the AA without being raw damage. Allowing them to have their Imbue elemental damage with an auxiliary effect would be awesome. Alternately, would it be possible to make it so that Imbue die raise your DC of your non-damaging Imbues? If not making so you can run with one of each (my preference), could they gain say 1 to their DC per Imbue Die? This would at least make stacking imbue die also useful for CC AA's (Yes we exist). Making the auxiliary effects not count as imbues while also granting an extra imbue die for each imbue would balance out. AA gains more presence by having bonus effects together with their ele imbue, but do not gain extra dice for the extra effects because they wouldn't be considered Imbues. If you leave them as imbues and do suggestion 2 they would gain some extra firepower from the non-damaging imbues. I think either option has potential, my personal preference aside.

Function Question;

Planning on going Dilly-lock DA for the extra 9d4 Fire damage on spell cast since on hit does a caster very little good (so that's a decent change, I'd go further and say i'd love if the DA dice/Imbue applied to your Pray for Mercy/ Cleric spells as well). I'm guessing this will be like the old non-bugfixed version where it will only proc on a single target or will it now apply to all enemies if used on an AoE Spell? Obviously I'd prefer the AoE but I know the old one that did 1d4/CL used to only hit a single target. This is more a curiosity than anything, I'm fine with either way as Dilly-lock used to be a good way to add some extra punch to weak spells before it was fixed. Also, does the imbue from the Dilly-warlock feat still have it's internal cool down timer?

Edit: Just got a chance to slip on Lamm during lunch break and saw that yes, it does have a 2 second CD still and already hit some bugs.

[Arlathen]

I'm really bummed out by the Scion of <Insert Element> legendary feats no longer being an Imbue themselves

Like, real Sad Panda unhappy

[droid327]

Function Question;

Planning on going Dilly-lock DA for the extra 9d4 Fire damage on spell cast. I'm guessing this will be like the old non-bugfixed version where it will only proc on a single target or will it now apply to all enemies if used on an AoE Spell? Obviously I'd prefer the AoE but I know the old one that did 1d4/CL used to only hit a single target. This is more a curiosity than anything, I'm fine with either way as Dilly-lock used to be a good way to add some extra punch to weak spells before it was fixed.

Also whether it has an ICD. Imbues right now don't, and adding 9d4 or more to every Magic Missile you cast would completely change that spell line

Also also if it's still not compatible with actual lock blasts, since that's obviously a huge difference

[Komradkillingmachine]

Sure, sounds completely reasonable to me.

Thank you!

[Artos_Fabril]

Don't see why you'd think that. As I've mentioned before, next to nothing changed for the Arcane Archer, despite obvious need for change:

It's an easy source of extra imbue dice for everyone now, not tied to bow use specifically.

Good gravy, such pessimism!

It's a learned behavior. You can thank your boss.

[daverapp]

The crits from offhand versatility we're the only thing that made my eldritch knight build fun, without it I'm just spamming "nukes" that knock off 10% of the mobs go at most and then they'll walk up to me and kill me in 3 hits. Why would I ever use an orb now? Why would I use SWF for that matter? My wizards going to have to use great swords now. That's what you want your wizards to be, right? Cloud frigging Strife?

[Xezom]

Also whether it has an ICD. Imbues right now don't, and adding 9d4 or more to every Magic Missile you cast would completely change that spell line

Also also if it's still not compatible with actual lock blasts, since that's obviously a huge difference

It does unfortunately have it's 2sec CD still. It does not say however that it is exclusive with Warlock pacts. I don't imagine the damage would be great since warlocks don't get a ton of imbue dice but it's worth noting.

Also was able to slip on Lamm for a short time during lunch break and caught some bugs already with teh Dilly-lock and DA combo.

Bugs with DA plus Dilly-lock Imbue:

Prayer SLA does not trigger Warlock Dilly Imbue's fire damage.


Can't get a full play through but next go around i'll do a full 3 day.

Side note:

"An Imbue is a new type of toggle in DDO that adds extra damage to your attacks." According to the OP. By this measure, the secondary AA toggles SHOULDN'T be Imbues because they don't do damage, and therefore should be allowed to be used at the same time as the ele Imbue. :P

[helpfulguy1234]

It's a learned behavior. You can thank your boss.

Should be able to give more than +1 rep for truth like this.

[Dark_Lord_Mary]

From my perspective being someone who actively tries to get new players to come to ddo and play dungeons and dragons here with my work on Hardcore and my YouTube I think all the changes to keep the game fun and all builds generally viable a good thing, having said that, major core changes that over-simplify that actually are nerfs are they in the best interest of each unique class?

At the end of the day people come here to play Dungeons and Dragons -
each class is unique. Each is unique because it does things the others don't. Each is different. That is what we like. What is the argument for having all these imbue dice pull from the same pool? why is this better?

isnt this 'one dice for all' thing just dumbing our complex cool game down?
one step further away from Dungeons and Dragons -

[Aelonwy]

I don't know if ignoring the comments on the Inquisitive changes is intentional or not. But there are enough of us saying it that I think you need to address it Lynnabel.

Is the nerf to Inquisitive dice intentional and if so what is the logic behind it? Please stop ignoring the people asking about it.

Thanks.

I would guess entirely intentional and not open to change or debate.

[SpardaX]

Don't see why you'd think that. As I've mentioned before, next to nothing changed for the Arcane Archer, despite obvious need for change:

- Arcane Archer has been lacking as a tree for some time now, especially on higher levels. To my surprise, given that it is the de-facto imbue tree along with Eldritch Knight, nothing really changed for it (besides Force Arrows being d8s instead of d6s). Would you consider making its imbues scale with Ranged Power? Or adding some dice in the cores? Or merging (probably partially) the tier 5 Imbue Dice/Improved Elemental Arrows?

Do you mean the non damaging Imbues such as Paralyzing with this? Because like, the elemental Imbues scale with Spell power. I don't know about you, but I can get a lot more spell power than ranged power. Even on a specced ranger in full stacks of Precise Shot Archer Shot. Unless you meant make them benefit with either 100% Spell Power (as they currently do) or 200% Ranged power whichever is higher.

[helpfulguy1234]

From my perspective being someone who actively tries to get new players to come to ddo and play dungeons and dragons here with my work on Hardcore and my YouTube I think all the changes to keep the game fun and all builds generally viable a good thing, having said that, major core changes that over-simplify that actually are nerfs are they in the best interest of each unique class?

At the end of the day people come here to play Dungeons and Dragons -
each class is unique. Each is unique because it does things the others don't. Each is different. That is what we like. What is the argument for having all these imbue dice pull from the same pool? why is this better?

isnt this 'one dice for all' thing just dumbing our complex cool game down?
one step further away from Dungeons and Dragons -

Yeah this is a real good point. Do we really want all this boring homogenous stuff for each class? It's.....something. But it sure isn't D&D.

Nothing anybody was really asking for.

[rabidfox]

War soul's toggle doesn't seem to stay on. Every time I click it, it goes on a bit of cooldown but doesn't stay toggled on. This is with my favored weapon equipped so not an issue of the wrong item blocking the use of that ability.

[nobodynobody1426]

Yeah this is a real good point. Do we really want all this boring homogenous stuff for each class? It's.....something. But it sure isn't D&D.

Nothing anybody was really asking for.

I think this has to do with setting up for future level cap increases. Currently they have to do a different thing for each type of elemental on-hit dice effect and it's only going to get more complicated going forward. The not spoken goal here is to setup a single system they can easily maintain and expand long term for stuff like EK / AA / Alch dice damage. The issue I'm seeing is the mass nerfs happening because the math wasn't done.

Example is the filigree on-hit damage stuff, it's 4D6 + 1D6 per Epic / Legendary level. Right now that means 16D6 at cap for 56 non-scaling damage on hit. The replacement is .. ready for it ... 1D6 / 3.5scaling damage. We would need 1500 melee power for the damage to be the same at level 32 with 100% MP scaling. If 200% scaling then it's 750 melee power. And it only gets worse if we raise the level cap, at 34 the damage is 63 non-scaling damage, needing 1700 melee power to match. At 40 it would be 84 damage, needing 2300 melee power to match.

Next is EK getting decimated from losing it's higher damage dice. Going from D12 (6.5) damage per dice to (3.5) damage per dice is a 53% reduction and would require total dice increasing by 85.8%, which it's not.

[Entyri]

Making the embodiment destiny feats actually only give stats if that alignment would be very nice. Imbue dice, melee / ranged / spell power, or defensive stats would all work.
2 imbue dice if the alignment? 5 mp / rp, 10 sp? 5 prr / mrr / ac?

Would also raise the question if there should be a paragon of good destiny feat too or something

Additionally, should dark imbuement be considered an imbue and made passive? Should it grant half your sneak dice in imbue dice when it lands? Or should it be left alone?

Thanks!

[SpardaX]

If we're going in this direction, I'd rip up the whole carpet and say death to Light spellpower.
Let Positive govern Positive Healing, Light, Good and Lawful, and Negative govern Negative Healing, Poison, Chaos and Evil.
That way the dichotomy makes sense and overall consolidates spellpowers that the affected classes would stack for their damage types anyway.

If that's too complicated to implement, I'd say any buff to less popular alignment casting is fine and as written seems good.

I think people are missing a simple answer that can both be thematic, and also doesn't mess up currently existing Warlocks.

The mechanics of "Higher of two spell powers" already exists in the game. So



Go with whatever scale you like, and then just treat Light as an alt for alignment.

So:
Chaos and Evil would be higher of Light or Negative
Lawful and Good would be higher of Light or Positive

Or if you disagree that Chaos and Law should be good or bad then just
Evil would be higher of Light or Negative
Good would be higher of Light or Positive

Or some other scale. I've seen a couple of interesting ideas so far. Just do "Light or Other most Appropriate"

It could open up some interesting negative warlock builds, where you can get evil damage Eldritch Blast, and then just have to scale purely off Negative spell power.

Then the same negative warlock going into Enlightened Spirit could just scale entirely off Light spell power.

[Lynnabel]

An unfortunate thing around all this is that a lot of the reaction around embodiment of/law of the divine is that Law of the Divine for many is half the reason they even consider divine crusader.
Divine Crusader for the playerbase is the melee raid support tree and its main saving grace personally for the player in that destiny is Law of the Divine, it's the entire reason a paladin or a sacred fist or whatever who takes Beckon Divinity to save raids from wipes doesn't feel awful when it isn't exactly needed.
Law of the Divine is just simply such a good asset of the tree people are angry at the idea of losing it and changing this one thing about said tree isn't going to be well received unless DC gets some more personal strength on par with what would be lost (and they probably aren't going to be happy with even more shield bashy stuff.)

That's totally on the table, if it helps - right now my suspicion is that the Law/Chaos ED Feats are going to end up as alignment boosts (so the Chaos one gives you, say, 2 imbue dice, some prr, some HP, some melee/ranged power, etc etc, but only if you're chaotic, same deal with law and law) and then we go back to the drawing board entirely on the T5s. Maybe the t5 bonuses for Fury/DC are just "you gain these feats if you didn't have them already, if you do have them, double their bonuses" - in that case, if the base feats are cool enough, the raw stats might be good enough to make everyone happy. And if they aren't, we can always add more juice to other areas of DC instead, all of the power doesn't have to be consolidated into that singular space, yanno?