U57 Preview 1: Hit Point Pass

[jskinner937]

Congratulations on topping u56. This HP Pass (aka Tank/Barb Nerf) and Imbue Pass (aka Inquistor/AA Nerf) may just top the debacle that was u56. Removing EDF, good thing. But other than this, this like slated update is complete garbage and will cause even more to quit.

I hate loving this game, but you know what, changing everything about it for no reason, other than change, makes an even better argument to just stop playing. Especially when there are many outdated enhancement trees and combat styles (TWF). Do you really think this is going to help melees? If anything it will kill melees.

Making barbarian hate tanks or intim tanks to hold aggro less common and viable.

Making healers less popular by nerfing animal domain at the same time.

Nerfing Assimar Healing Hands since it didnt play right with EDF (forward thinking huh).

You could give DPS melees a 50% HP buff and it will not matter due to the affect above.

Oh wait, why not implement that dodge bypass mechanic while you are at it.

I mean its clear you want everyone playing casters or throwers. I like playing casters (throwers are boring), but melee is fun as well, and I personally want to see it elevated, not deflated. This is really going to further push PuG raiding out of reach for most.

[SpartanKiller13]

Congratulations on topping u56. This HP Pass (aka Tank/Barb Nerf) and Imbue Pass (aka Inquistor/AA Nerf) may just top the debacle that was u56. Removing EDF, good thing. But other than this, this like slated update is complete garbage and will cause even more to quit.
*snip*
This is really going to further push PuG raiding out of reach for most.

I mean if you check the first post or later dev posts they've already stated they're going to re-balance for preview 2 lol. They apparently didn't expect the numbers that have been demonstrated and as such are going to change their end a bit We'll see for pass 2, and updating numbers should be pretty easy on their end (more time spent deciding what to change them to probs).

Even if the update hit as shown here I don't think it'd stop PuG raiding lmao, you don't need much of a toon to complete LH which is about where most pugs I see are. It'd certainly hurt mid-skull+ raiding but that's an entirely different boat. Or LN if shortman or doing teaching runs, you can complete with a full party of first-life toons so I don't see how that's going to kill pugs.

[slarden]

All 3 Barbarian trees should have a 20% competence bonus in tier 5. This is not because they sometimes act as tanks, but rather barbarians are intended to have higher hp and all melee dps should have the same 20%. In other words the % shouldn't change the relative strengths of melee builds, but rather buff them all.

The paladin and fighter tank trees should have in tier 5: The 20% competence bonus from defender stance is increased to 30% which would offset the loss of bonuses from EDF and Unyielding Sentinel. Dedicated tanks should have higher percentages than other trees, but the extra % should only come from tier 5.

As others have stated barbarians are used as damage sponge tanks in raids because they can get higher hp. If a full dps class is being used as a tank, the answer isn't necessarily fully supporting barbarian tanks, but rather buffing builds that are intended to be tanks but can't in some high end content due to hp and damage reduction differential.

15% is fine for wizards and sorcs in EK. The archmage tree is so bad you could potentially see some dc casters going tier 5 in EK. This is more a sign of how bad archmage is - not an abuse. Put some useful slas and abilities in tier 5 archmage and pure casters would never choose the 15% hp.

[SpartanKiller13]

15% is fine for wizards and sorcs in EK. The archmage tree is so bad you could potentially see some dc casters going tier 5 in EK. This is more a sign of how bad archmage is - not an abuse. Put some useful slas and abilities in tier 5 archmage and pure casters would never choose the 15% hp.

I also worry about Sorcs, like there seems little opportunity cost for most Savant builds to go T5 EK then no? Given you need capstone for immunity stripping. Only Air for Wind Dance even seems like an option, and in epics can just go EA for a dash instead and take 15% HP. Same with Wizards as you said though lol. Archmage is also a pretty low-tier enhancement tree...

[Yamani]

In high diff content, you are very role defined. You tank, you DPS, you crowd control, or you heal. If you can't do any of those, you aren't support, you're nothing. Besides primary intent doesn't matter. Some people figured out a way to make warpriest tanks. To go now and say "warpriests weren't meant to be tanks, be healer support, and know your place!" is a slap to the face which leads to 3 options:

1) Stick with lower diff content they can still tank.
2) Change their playstyle to healer support and leave tanking to other characters
3) Reincarnate into something else.

Didn't say they had to be healers, pretty much said they could fill in for any but not full on handle the role. In terms of current warpriest tanks. Quests are a literal joke even up to r10. Raids you could get by, but actually pushing the difficulty. A semi tank won't do and that's what I consider a "warpriest tank". I should note pushing difficulty on raids is more like r6+ for me, as well as higher than tier 2. With a few exceptions based on raid.

This is just my perspective though.

[Lotoc]

Just a suggestion for pale master.
Could Zombie Ascendant Shroud get a competence HP bonus added? I believe the form is mostly used by melee/tank pale masters as it really has no caster bonuses so it'd be a shame for PMs to lose the comp hp option of EDF.
Though it may be a bit messy to have +10% profane and +15/20%? comp in one enhancement, the 10% profane could be moved to the Deathly Tough core selection replacing the 25 HP?

[Verlok_the_Red]

I'm just going to make it as simple as possible..

Hey folks! We are doing a pass on hit points. The goals here are to add a little more of a buffer for new players in general to make mistakes, and add a significantly larger buffer for melee builds.

and a few lines later...

After reviewing player feedback we quickly realized we got the top base hit point range wrong on advanced end game melee builds and as a result the Competence HP % modifiers are to low in may of the trees listed above. Thinking the base was smaller mistaken lead us to believe the new style hit point bonus would offset some % mod shrinkages. (when I say base I means your hit points BEFORE % increases)

?!?!?!? are you kidding me?!? your ready to overall the entire hit point system and you don't even have a basic understanding of the impact?

I seem to recall... U51.. "stat squish" will fix everything...

lol... please..

Perhaps...

* try ADDING hit points to help people enjoy the game
* don't punish the player base becasue SSG has broken the game so badly that your only option is COPY/PASTE or DELETE existing code
* maybe FIX THE HEALING/SPHERES?!?!?! is that really so hard?!
* rather than nurffing the heck out of animal sphere DOUBLE THE BONUS!
* do something USEFULL with your time like double or TRIPPLE the range of auras and buffs! (you know make it easier to heal people) simple concept.
* log in to the game one day and try healing a raid full of people who were already nurffed to death in u51 and see how fun it is healing 12 people with 1 hit worth of HP
* see how much fun it is dien every time a monster sneezes on you because hit scaling from U51 is STILL broken a year and a half later. I mean sometimes its great to get a drink mid fight.. but really?
* why silently remove things like divine vitality... perhaps if you actually played a cleric in the last 15 years you would know its been a round a long time and people may actually use it..

this post is just another example of how disjoined SSG is from the game, the player base and the general lack of caring about the player experience .. I hope one day WoTC revokes your license to destroy their brand any further. I'm sure they cant find anyone worse than SSG to take over...


as far as I'm concerned ...

Don't let the door hit you where the Lord of Blades split you!

[Seph1roth5]

Both sound completely at odds with each other. If you want to help new people with HP, what does it matter what the endgame meta HP is? Sounds more like they're just hacking off the players at the knees and giving excuses.

Reminds me of playing pathfinder with a GM who thinks everyone's character is too strong.

[Oliphant]

Spent about 50 minutes with a group waiting to fill a Hunt raid yesterday but no healer and tank ever showed up. Think about if this update makes it more or less desirable to play healer and tank. If it is equally desirable to play a healer and tank after these changes maybe go back to the drawing board. You wouldn't possibly make it less desirable to play a healer and tank so I won't go into that.

Wait, you wouldn't make it less desirable to play healer and tank would you?

Would you??

[SpartanKiller13]

Both sound completely at odds with each other. If you want to help new people with HP, what does it matter what the endgame meta HP is? Sounds more like they're just hacking off the players at the knees and giving excuses.

Reminds me of playing pathfinder with a GM who thinks everyone's character is too strong.

Well, generally game balance changes (like this one) affect both playstyles and the devs are not trying to nerf or massively shift the endgame meta (at least that they've mentioned) so they're trying to get a buff for new players without it being a nerf for endgame. Preview 1 did not do that but they've recognized this and are changing before P2 lol.

How are they hacking players off at the knees? Getting a bunch of HP on newer toons is a free buff, and losing 50-100 hp (the stated design goal for endgame HP toons) is pretty far from being hacked at the knees IMO.

Also removing EDF is a great change for everyone - now you can heal/rez etc at range which is amazing.

Spent about 50 minutes with a group waiting to fill a Hunt raid yesterday but no healer and tank ever showed up. Think about if this update makes it more or less desirable to play healer and tank. If it is equally desirable to play a healer and tank after these changes maybe go back to the drawing board.

Sounds like it's time to make yourself a tank & a healer alt

First-life tank will get ya through LH easily, and with a bit more work you can get a low-life R1 tank without too much difficulty. First-life healer is good for most content

[jskinner937]

I mean if you check the first post or later dev posts they've already stated they're going to re-balance for preview 2 lol. They apparently didn't expect the numbers that have been demonstrated and as such are going to change their end a bit We'll see for pass 2, and updating numbers should be pretty easy on their end (more time spent deciding what to change them to probs).

Even if the update hit as shown here I don't think it'd stop PuG raiding lmao, you don't need much of a toon to complete LH which is about where most pugs I see are. It'd certainly hurt mid-skull+ raiding but that's an entirely different boat. Or LN if shortman or doing teaching runs, you can complete with a full party of first-life toons so I don't see how that's going to kill pugs.

Thank you for pointing out they are reconsidering the impact. As others have mentioned after my post, I do hope they understand that melee help is more than HP grant. To me, make playing a healer or Tank easier, not harder is a first step.

In an ideal world, a durable melee DPS could pick up 2 mantles and switch mantles between tanking and DPS with a proper healer in most quest and many raids. And a dedicated Tank could DPS if tanking isn’t needed.

And probably a bigger stretch would be a healer could switch mantles and be a DPS or melee if healing isn’t required.

Healing and melee need the love. This whole pass and the imbue pass seem to be missing the mark where game balance is needed. Liking a particular playstyle or making alts to compliment another playstyle and bring more role utility to the game should be the focus, along with making the game more new player friendly.

One of the easiest ways to get into end game content is playing a tank or healer as a new player.

[jskinner937]

Well, generally game balance changes (like this one) affect both playstyles and the devs are not trying to nerf or massively shift the endgame meta (at least that they've mentioned) so they're trying to get a buff for new players without it being a nerf for endgame. Preview 1 did not do that but they've recognized this and are changing before P2 lol.

How are they hacking players off at the knees? Getting a bunch of HP on newer toons is a free buff, and losing 50-100 hp (the stated design goal for endgame HP toons) is pretty far from being hacked at the knees IMO.

Also removing EDF is a great change for everyone - now you can heal/rez etc at range which is amazing.



Sounds like it's time to make yourself a tank & a healer alt

First-life tank will get ya through LH easily, and with a bit more work you can get a low-life R1 tank without too much difficulty. First-life healer is good for most content

The original proposed pass made neither of these 1st life friendly even in LH. Hopefully the devs are considering this in preview 2 now. I am not sure you understood the impact according your post. Removing EDF and adding competence bonus helped melees but most Tank builds lost HPs. Animal domain and FVS HP bonuses nerfed hurt healers. Babrbarian HP bags nerfed. Don’t rely on the initial dev comment that said most would get a HP boost, that’s been clearly pointed out several times not the case, even on a first lifer. The very roles that keep a raid party alive were the unintended targets.

And removing EDF did not help healers rez/heal in raids, as a healer, you would never use EDF, unless you are the Tank as well. But yeah removing the feature overall is a good thing. Too bad Aasimar had to get nerfed with EDF being the reason. Maybe the cores should get reinstated. Or at least add a tier 4 enhancement to get the regen ability back. Even if the spend was 20 AP to take full advantage of healing hands as before, this would at least still be an option for many with limited healing otherwise.

[TheAlicornSage]

Frankly, I don't agree with increasing low level hit points. Even back in the elder days when the game was harder I thought we got too much of a boost to initial HP. Further, the majority of time players spend at low levels will not be as new players but as additional lives which really don't need even more boosting over everything else such reincarnated characters get.

If you still really want to make things easier for first timers anyway, I suggest granting a first life bonus intstead that would disappear after reincarnation.

Now, I have played a ton at low level since the game came out and feel I'm qualified to comment there, however I've only got one epic level character and am not an optimizer, so take the following with a healthy dose of salt.

I find HP becomes an issue at higher level in two ways, it's growth goes beyond exponential into quadratic. My skelky, a thoeretical fighter, has nearly three times my wizard's HP even after I spend AP and occasionally gear on increasing my con and HP (since I'm a sllo EK). That is a massive disparity, far larger than d4s vs d10s. Even so, my wiz has far beyond reasonable lrvels of HP.

Maybe it's just because I'm an old grognard that still prefers 3.5 and even 2e over more modern rpgs, but I personally think a lot of the numbers at high levels have gotten way out of hand. My skelly has over 1100 HP at an effective fighter level of 22. The baseline 3.5 rules would grant merely 440HP even including the +20 con it gets from all the boosts I give it. My wiz gets around 400 all by herself and the 3.5 rule baseline there is 280 with my +10/lvl from con. 280 vs 440 is much less a ridiculous disparity than 400 vs 1100.

And yes, ddo has long left 3.5 behind, but 3.5 is still the foundation the game is built on, and even in 3.5 the HP disparity at high levels was regarded as a problem, and now in ddo, the problem is even bigger. I'm not really seeing how these new hp rules do anything to make that high level disparity anything but worse.

The other line of issue is damage. Making enemies deal damage that is a threat to my skelly overwhelms my wizard, but something devestating to my wizard is a fleabite to my skelly. As the disparity between high and low hp characters grows larger, it only becones more difficult to balance enemy dmg output, as you lose the ability to challange one end of the spectrum without being either one-shot-kill or negligible on the other.

[jskinner937]

Frankly, I don't agree with increasing low level hit points. Even back in the elder days when the game was harder I thought we got too much of a boost to initial HP. Further, the majority of time players spend at low levels will not be as new players but as additional lives which really don't need even more boosting over everything else such reincarnated characters get.

If you still really want to make things easier for first timers anyway, I suggest granting a first life bonus intstead that would disappear after reincarnation.

Now, I have played a ton at low level since the game came out and feel I'm qualified to comment there, however I've only got one epic level character and am not an optimizer, so take the following with a healthy dose of salt.

I find HP becomes an issue at higher level in two ways, it's growth goes beyond exponential into quadratic. My skelky, a thoeretical fighter, has nearly three times my wizard's HP even after I spend AP and occasionally gear on increasing my con and HP (since I'm a sllo EK). That is a massive disparity, far larger than d4s vs d10s. Even so, my wiz has far beyond reasonable lrvels of HP.

Maybe it's just because I'm an old grognard that still prefers 3.5 and even 2e over more modern rpgs, but I personally think a lot of the numbers at high levels have gotten way out of hand. My skelly has over 1100 HP at an effective fighter level of 22. The baseline 3.5 rules would grant merely 440HP even including the +20 con it gets from all the boosts I give it. My wiz gets around 400 all by herself and the 3.5 rule baseline there is 280 with my +10/lvl from con. 280 vs 440 is much less a ridiculous disparity than 400 vs 1100.

And yes, ddo has long left 3.5 behind, but 3.5 is still the foundation the game is built on, and even in 3.5 the HP disparity at high levels was regarded as a problem, and now in ddo, the problem is even bigger. I'm not really seeing how these new hp rules do anything to make that high level disparity anything but worse.

The other line of issue is damage. Making enemies deal damage that is a threat to my skelly overwhelms my wizard, but something devestating to my wizard is a fleabite to my skelly. As the disparity between high and low hp characters grows larger, it only becones more difficult to balance enemy dmg output, as you lose the ability to challange one end of the spectrum without being either one-shot-kill or negligible on the other.

Epic destinies and epic past lifes changed this game from what it was (heroic adventures) to what it is today (epic/legendary). Comparing epics/legendary it to 3.5e is a bit of an overreach. I never saw anything in the OP that said this was to help low levels at all. The statement was to help new players and I think the design goal was intended to balance 20+, not heroics. So your logic is misapplied, but the sentiment is felt based on your own personal experience.

[Silverleafeon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRmMyYXhtR0

[jskinner937]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRmMyYXhtR0

Funny stuff and oddly true.

[SpartanKiller13]

Thank you for pointing out they are reconsidering the impact. As others have mentioned after my post, I do hope they understand that melee help is more than HP grant. To me, make playing a healer or Tank easier, not harder is a first step.

In an ideal world, a durable melee DPS could pick up 2 mantles and switch mantles between tanking and DPS with a proper healer in most quest and many raids. And a dedicated Tank could DPS if tanking isn’t needed.

And probably a bigger stretch would be a healer could switch mantles and be a DPS or melee if healing isn’t required.

Healing and melee need the love. This whole pass and the imbue pass seem to be missing the mark where game balance is needed. Liking a particular playstyle or making alts to compliment another playstyle and bring more role utility to the game should be the focus, along with making the game more new player friendly.

One of the easiest ways to get into end game content is playing a tank or healer as a new player.

Off-tanking on chunky melees works pretty well at lower difficulty too, but yeah swapping mantles would be a nicer ideal. I have a guildy that does exactly that, swaps mantles and gear to a more DPS-focus if there's no need for a tank - but for me it's hard to justify the opportunity cost on an alt (and I'm usually TRing my main = can't really play tanks for leveling). Most tanks are going T5 US (for good reason) and that's a lot of EDP to spend in a weak tree for a DPS build FotW T5 tanks might be a thing for some content if the T5 %HP changes from Preview 1 go through, but those would be just straight up inferior in terms of their tanking ability which is kinda hard to justify on a toon that needs to be able to tank primarily.

For my healer I have multiple epic strikes so I can throw a little DPS if bored and I run a debuffer thrower; but it's definitely not near where you're talking about. I would also like to see more interesting buffs and more HoT effects to reduce times where the best healer action is "select the tank and just rotate through a hotbar worth of heals on them" or "pick some melee toon and apply your AoE heals on cooldown" lol. I like the direction they went with BoH but there isn't very much of that yet (both healing wall and active buffs).

I agree on general principle with where you're at, but I do quite like the EDF removal and HP buff for newer players & lower-investment characters lol. I don't want to see tanks nerfed, and I'd like the healer playstyle to be more rewarding but I'm not sure the current meta where healers are the 2nd tankiest build style is where it should be? Like my healer is T5 US and usually one of the tougher people in any given raid because why not? There's low opportunity cost and the benefits are pretty nice. EA mantle is IMO too slow for raids and dying on a healer is bad soooo....

The original proposed pass made neither of these 1st life friendly even in LH. Hopefully the devs are considering this in preview 2 now. I am not sure you understood the impact according your post. Removing EDF and adding competence bonus helped melees but most Tank builds lost HPs. Animal domain and FVS HP bonuses nerfed hurt healers. Barbarian HP bags nerfed. Don’t rely on the initial dev comment that said most would get a HP boost, that’s been clearly pointed out several times not the case, even on a first lifer. The very roles that keep a raid party alive were the unintended targets.

And removing EDF did not help healers rez/heal in raids, as a healer, you would never use EDF, unless you are the Tank as well. But yeah removing the feature overall is a good thing. Too bad Aasimar had to get nerfed with EDF being the reason. Maybe the cores should get reinstated. Or at least add a tier 4 enhancement to get the regen ability back. Even if the spend was 20 AP to take full advantage of healing hands as before, this would at least still be an option for many with limited healing otherwise.

I posted numbers on like 4 different builds in this thread lol. I have a Barb tank build on page 5 that would lose 1200 HP from this change, and I'd like to think it's part of why the devs are changing from preview 1 to 2.

My tank alt was previously Animal domain, but I already swapped to Protection domain and I think it's likely superior? I'd like to promote it as an option for others too. I think Animal Domain is too big of a nerf, but at the same time base HP for Clerics with 4 combat feats is rising by 220 which is roughly equivalent which gives an option for healers to stay fairly tanky while swapping domains. Currently I don't run EDF on my tank either, because I run a lot of teaching raids and having more range for healing/rezzing is really nice. That tank breaks even with these changes (~1% difference) but that doesn't mean the initial pass is good lol. Making tanks more accessible is a good thing, I'd like to see buffs at the low end for certain. I'm not sure the top end of tanks need buffing though, as tougher tanks cause more damaging enemies = harder for everyone else to survive.

Removing EDF didn't directly change anything for anyone not using EDF lol - but it changes a lot for people using EDF. T5 US has a rez SLA. A lot of melee builds can easily fit Renewal and plenty have a few spells as well. Every level 32 toon can at scroll-cast at least Raise Dead, which is really helpful if a bunch of people die or in PUGs or for shortman or general questing etc. Even just being able to throw CSW as a Ranger can be enough to keep someone alive while a healer is busy/stunned/etc.

Personally I still think Aasimar is really strong, but for certain that nerf was pretty heavy-handed. It's just more of an emergency heal now instead of "yeah might as well throw you one I have like 7".

[ThomasHunter]

Good afternoon dev team! I'm excited to see this change in action as it looks good.

My main toon (best toon?) is a 18/2 Vistani (43 points) FvS/Monk. I am a little bummed that to get the 20% HP is a multi-selector with Vendetta. Vendetta is an attack that I use often and is pretty fun (although a long cooldown!). As a full melee toon, taking that away to get the extra HP is necessary as I can't do without the extra HP. Losing Vendetta would be sad.

I think the HP buff would make more sense (arguably) at the top of the middle column which is much more defensive minded. I believe it would make the most sense to just include the 20% HP in the top tier (Mist Stalker V) as a passive effect. Now, currently, I don't take the top tier there, but if this was changed, it would have to be something that I would have to consider.

tl;dr - Vendetta seems like a bad place to put the 20% HP.

Thanks for reading!
Taleisin

[Duhboy]

Also removing EDF is a great change for everyone - now you can heal/rez etc at range which is amazing.

I disagree with the removal of EDF in general. Instead of them deleting EDF and struggling figuring out how to sprinkle HP competence bonuses to heroic trees because of said removal of passive feat despite the fact that heroics are a joke to begin with why not take the easier route and simply remove the negative drawbacks of EDF? LOL

[SpartanKiller13]

I disagree with the removal of EDF in general. Instead of them deleting EDF and struggling figuring out how to sprinkle HP competence bonuses to heroic trees because of said removal of passive feat despite the fact that heroics are a joke to begin with why not take the easier route and simply remove the negative drawbacks of EDF? LOL

Because then everyone gets to use it and there's no longer any survivability buff for melees?

I'd be very happy to stuff 4 combat feats into a DC casting Wizard build for +25% HP lmao.