U57 Preview 1: Hit Point Pass

[Arlathen]

Fighter Love: 1% Quality bonus HP per fighter level.

"A chance for Faramir, Captain of Gondor, to show his quality..."

[Caarb]

Competance Bonus should be standardised otherwise you are just kicking the can down the road as every class will scale differently

Alchemist
Chemical Weapon - Ok

Artificer
Battle Engineer - Reconstructed Arms & Edges ok

BarbariansT5 -
Uncanny Balance meh its suboptimal as this enhancement is good but not an auto-take
Accelerated Metabolism - Bad dont make us choose between losing HPs or losing DPS with U57

Bards
Second Skin meh its suboptimal as this enhancement is good but not an auto-take
Howl of Winter ok

Cleric
meh its suboptimal as this enhancement is not an auto-take


Druid
Need to remove shield requirement from Ursa's heart otherwise DPS Bears will be losing out


Favored Soul
Divine Champion: ok

Fighter
T5 Kensai- Weapon Master ok
T5 Vanguard - ok

Monk
new T5 for Henshin Mystic & Ninja Spy - not happy with this - AP tax

Ranger
T5 - Tempest- Dual Perfection - ok

Rogue
T5 Assassin Light Armor Mastery Rank 3 - hate this one AP tax means giving up other T5s - please reduce cost of T5s in this tree
T5 - Acrobat- Spinning Staff Wall - meh its suboptimal as this enhancement is good but not an auto-take

Paladin
T5 - KOTC - Vigor of Life meh its suboptimal as this enhancement is good but not an auto-take
T5 Vanguard - Brutal Impact - ok
T5 Sacred Fist - Divine Strike meh its suboptimal as this enhancement is not an auto-take

Falconry
T5- Dangerous- ok

Vistani
New Enhancement called Grudge Bearer Bad dont make us choose between losing HPs or losing DPS with U57

[Emergencies]

Only 3 classes in DDO get heavy armor proficiency. They are Paladin, Fighter, and Cleric.

As a design choice, clerics are clearly meant as tanks and favored souls meant as DPS. The ability to heal is great in epic hard difficulty, but everything gets one-shot in epic hard. Tanking has no purpose outside raiding and Reaper difficulty as context.

There can’t be tanky healers. Healers are back line positions to minimize enemy exposure. Front line positions are exposed to constant enemy dps. A healer on the front line gains nothing but exposes himself to enemy aoe. In reaper, you then need a back line healer to heal the frontline healer since he can’t heal himself.

Are we okay with one of the only 3 heavy armor classes being unable to fulfill its role in Reaper difficulty?

Warpriests get no effective AC bonuses. No MRR bonuses. The lowest PRR bonuses of any tank class. No healing amp. No dodge.

Animal domain, 10% sacred, and EDF were the only thing keeping Warpriests able to do the job they were intended to do.

IF we want cleric war priest to be able to continue its intended role as a front line tank, you are going to need to add in 75 PRR and 37 MRR just to balance out the 15% hp loss. (Gain back 15% of 500 PRR and 250 MRR to balance out the 15% hp loss)

We CAN just say F it all and not care about the unintended effect of completely removing cleric war priest from doing its intended role but that’s a major MAJOR design decision that should not occur as an unintended effect.

This made my head hurt, but okay.

Well made healers in difficult content shouldn't be forced to tank, but be able to take a hit. Even if you have the best positioning, there are going to be times there is nothing you can do but take that hit. That is my definition of a tanky healer. A tank healer on the front line shouldn't work as well as they do currently. R10 can be sketchy at times but a tank healer up to R8 with good movement and decent stats can survive very well.

I don't think I've met anyone who considered warpriest a tank tree. It is a MELEE tree with defensive options. The main S tier tank heavily utilizing warpriest is the 12clr/5wiz/3ftr PM build going only 21 points for the 10% sacred.

But let's say warpriest is a tank tree and they put it on par with ftr/pally. There would then be no reason to run anything other than a clr/fvs tank just due to their ability to heal. Even on a lower life toon, it would be a breeze to survive in LH raids. Add a few past lives and reaper points and R1 raids are a joke. Even a few months ago (U50), I made a 17fvs/3pal that could self heal through Kor-Kaza on R6. If you don't consider that broken I don't know what to say.

Additionally, if you want to run quests on r10 and push raids on higher reaper, it is straight up your fault for trying to utilize a weaker class split. If you are trying to push the game to its hardest difficulties you should be trying to adapt to the game rather than making the game adapt to you.

[Claver]

UPDATE:
And looking at monk, Master maker and Occult slayer who need some extra attention due to having a quality bonus in the mix. The Destiny changes are probably not happening or at least not going to look the same for preview 2.

Glad to see Renegade Master maker will be getting some love

Are any improvements on the horizon for Bear HP bonus (Natures Protector), which now compares less favorably, to other class enhancement options that don't require that you be in Bear Form with a shield equipped?

[kpak01]

Like it or not, 5e is still DnD

Yeah, and gridiron and association are both "football". You're playing a pointless word game. 5e is a different game than the one on which DDO was based. You trying to tell me I should think otherwise is like if you were trying to tell a soccer fan that they should support having tackling added to soccer because American football has it; after all, they are both football! While there is some shared history and terminology, they are. Two. Different. Games.

I don't care about 5e, and it is not what DDO was based on. This would remove even more of that game, and I think that is A Very Bad Thing.

these changes do exactly as you asked, increasing the delta between low hit die and large hit die classes, based on if they are melee.

A) they don't do that, and B) I did not ask for that, merely pointed out that was the idea behind EDF. What I asked for was sticking with the D&D rules we have instead of removing even more of them. (If I thought it would help, I'd ask that we add back in more of the D&D that has been removed in the past.)

[TueNictGut]

Ambitious project i apreciate this idea to buff melee a little.

Regarding the case of melee Ninja:
Ninja for melee is already the baddest t5 in the game, so dont tax them with another 2 ap but integrate the hp like in assassintree

Integrate hp into deadly striker which is an autotake and while you are at it, change it to give +1crit multiplyer with onehanded melee weapons, you are centered with, to make melee ninja a bit more versatile and ninja t5 a bit less bad.

Thx for considering this

[Kivandel]

Barbarians
T5 - Accelerated Metabolism grants +15% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original bonuses.
-T

Add some % to Raging Blows, trade-off is too big. Or add %HP bonus into cores instead of T5, as some people suggested.

[Stravix]

Add some % to Raging Blows, trade-off is too big. Or add %HP bonus into cores instead of T5, as some people suggested.

Honestly, both halves should have the %HP. If the point if for all melees to get it, you shouldn't have to choose recovery or damage.

[Firebreed]

Don't have a horse in this race, but all I wanna say is:

It's OK for all Tanks to use Unyielding Sentinel.

No, really. It is.

[Dandonk]

Honestly, both halves should have the %HP. If the point if for all melees to get it, you shouldn't have to choose recovery or damage.

Completely agree, this is awful design.

If Metabolism is not used enough, it should be buffed in some other way.

Edit: if everyone is getting it, why not just give it to everyone? Tack it on to Heroic Durability, and hey, works for everyone. Then no one has to be nerfed in the name of getting casters more hp (why is this needed? they weren't OP enough already?)

[Zuldar]

If you're going to nerf cleric this hard could you at least rework the rest of warpriest to actually be usable? At the very least rework divine vessel to actually be useful.

[nobodynobody1426]

Honestly, both halves should have the %HP. If the point if for all melees to get it, you shouldn't have to choose recovery or damage.

There is a super simple and super easy solution to give the HP back to all melee's without EDF. Remember EDF does not grant 25% competence bonus to HP, it grants 5% + 5% for each combat style feat to a cap of 25%. Just attach the bonus to the feats directly since only the highest source counts anyway.

Base Combat Style Feat = 5% competence bonus
Improved Combat Style = 10% competence bonus
Greater Combat Style = 15% competence bonus
Perfect Combat Style = 25% competence bonus

There all builds are in exactly the same place they started, only no EDF requirement. Then they could adjust individual tree's as needed.

The only reason I could see them not wanting to do this, is if they had an ulterior motive of restricting potential HP growth going forward as the levels rise, since percentile HP bonus's scale better then static ones.

[Stravix]

There is a super simple and super easy solution to give the HP back to all melee's without EDF. Remember EDF does not grant 25% competence bonus to HP, it grants 5% + 5% for each combat style feat to a cap of 25%. Just attach the bonus to the feats directly since only the highest source counts anyway.



There all builds are in exactly the same place they started, only no EDF requirement. Then they could adjust individual tree's as needed.

The only reason I could see them not wanting to do this, is if they had an ulterior motive of restricting potential HP growth going forward as the levels rise, since percentile HP bonus's scale better then static ones.

Honestly, I like the mentality behind the changes. Giving more base HP from the fighting style feats seems to be a good idea, but obviously some %health needs to be added in to compensate for the fact that it doesn't make up the entirety of it (while also increasing the relative value of other sources of %hp). The numbers just need some tweaks.

[Infiltraitor]

This made my head hurt, but okay.

Well made healers in difficult content shouldn't be forced to tank, but be able to take a hit. Even if you have the best positioning, there are going to be times there is nothing you can do but take that hit. That is my definition of a tanky healer. A tank healer on the front line shouldn't work as well as they do currently. R10 can be sketchy at times but a tank healer up to R8 with good movement and decent stats can survive very well.

I don't think I've met anyone who considered warpriest a tank tree. It is a MELEE tree with defensive options. The main S tier tank heavily utilizing warpriest is the 12clr/5wiz/3ftr PM build going only 21 points for the 10% sacred.

But let's say warpriest is a tank tree and they put it on par with ftr/pally. There would then be no reason to run anything other than a clr/fvs tank just due to their ability to heal. Even on a lower life toon, it would be a breeze to survive in LH raids. Add a few past lives and reaper points and R1 raids are a joke. Even a few months ago (U50), I made a 17fvs/3pal that could self heal through Kor-Kaza on R6. If you don't consider that broken I don't know what to say.

Additionally, if you want to run quests on r10 and push raids on higher reaper, it is straight up your fault for trying to utilize a weaker class split. If you are trying to push the game to its hardest difficulties you should be trying to adapt to the game rather than making the game adapt to you.

I think war soul is the melee dps with defensive options. Medium armor, critical threat and multiplier, doublestrike.

War priest is the melee tank with offensive options. Heavy armor, 10% sacred hit points, and THREAT GENERATION.

Heavy Armor and Threat Generation are clear indicators of what the devs intended. They clearly wanted Warpriest to be the tank counterpart to war soul.

You are correct that nobody considers warpriest to be a tank tree, but every indication shows what the devs intended. It just happened that warpriest design was so weak that nobody considered that a possibility.

As for being on par with Sacred defender, different tank types fulfill different niches. Paladin AC tanks are the undisputed champion for tanking high volume of attacks due to having top tier armor class and PRR. Barbarian meat shields are the undisputed champions vs raid bosses with a single very high damage attack.

What we have is a third tank, that was clearly intended to be a tank, being inferior to both other tanks in all possible areas. Nobody else seems to be speaking up for Warpriest to fulfill its intended role. I shall.

[Zess-wolf]

Is the HP bonus a passive effect or only when meditation is toggled on?

Because meditation has some drawbacks that i usually avoid till cap IF im pure monk, otherwise i dont even take it.

I mean, 10% less dps is a huge hit(water stance), or even 10% more damage, are some huge blows

Either change the debuffs, or make the HP bonus passive, or (wouldnt preffer this one since shintao is already an expensive tree) add a new enhancement for that

[Duhboy]

Add some % to Raging Blows, trade-off is too big. Or add %HP bonus into cores instead of T5, as some people suggested.

Completely agree with this.

+1

[Cashiry]

Additional Changes coming in Lammania 2:

Unyielding Sentinel:

Strength of Vitality reduced: Gain 2/4/6% insightful bonus to max hit points. Rank 3: Increase this bonus to 10% if the Mantle of the Sentinel is Active.

In here to make tanking less unyielding sent exclusive since this bonus was so large and to offset some of the increases from other sources.

This should not happen... leave Strength of Vitality as is..

There is not one melee DPS build that goes T5 Unyielding Sentinel as there are better destiny's to be in for DPS melee builds. Tanks are the only build that go T5 in Unyielding Sentinel. Why penalize tanks by removing dropping 10% hps while in the mantle.

Remember you can only have 1 Destiny with T5 skills.

Leave it alone.

[helpfulguy1234]

This should not happen... leave Strength of Vitality as is..

There is not one melee DPS build that goes T5 Unyielding Sentinel as there are better destiny's to be in for DPS melee builds. Tanks are the only build that go T5 in Unyielding Sentinel. Why penalize tanks by removing dropping 10% hps while in the mantle.

Remember you can only have 1 Destiny with T5 skills.

Leave it alone.

Healers do to!

But aside from that, you're 100% correct. Tanks don't need a nerf. I would leave the mantle bonus as is. Want to drop the non-mantle, ok, can live with it.

[slarden]

Just taking a look at my assassin I currently get a 25% hp bonus from epic defensive fighting.

Instead my hit die goes from 6 to 8 and with twf, itwf, gtwf, ptwf I get 100% bonus to that so it goes to 16. Plus I gain a 20% hp for light armor mastery.

I keep hearing this is a nerf but it seems like my net hp goes up and I no longer need to drop epic defensive fighting to heal others and use res scrolls.

It seems like my hp go up and I lose the major disadvantage of epic defensive fighting. What I am missing that people think this is a nerf and I am thinking it's a buff? I haven't looked at every build so maybe assassins are just making out better than other builds.

[Cashiry]

Just taking a look at my assassin I currently get a 25% hp bonus from epic defensive fighting.

Instead my hit die goes from 6 to 8 and with twf, itwf, gtwf, ptwf I get 100% bonus to that so it goes to 16. Plus I gain a 20% hp for light armor mastery.

I keep hearing this is a nerf but it seems like my net hp goes up and I no longer need to drop epic defensive fighting to heal others and use res scrolls.

It seems like my hp go up and I lose the major disadvantage of epic defensive fighting. What I am missing that people think this is a nerf and I am thinking it's a buff? I haven't looked at every build so maybe assassins are just making out better than other builds.

tank specific builds are getting nerfed.