U57 Preview 1: Hit Point Pass

[Tsutti]

d4->d6 = +40 hp
epic hp/level: 10>5 = -50 hp

= net change: -10 hp


Now, although Torc explicitly stated EPIC levels were changing, the table in the OP also appears to identify that LEGENDARY levels are also being changed from +10 to +5 per level. Assuming the levels 21-32 are all going to be +5hp/level, this means -60hp vs currently on live.

So it's actually a -20 hp nerf

It was a bit confusing the way that image puts it but that's not what epic levels are changing to, that's how much extra hp you'll get from epic levels with the full 100% increase to level up hp with combat style feats. Combat styles will now grant 25% more hp from level ups per feat, up to 100%, with epic levels scaling at half. So all of those hp values are being added flat to what we already have in game so that -50 is a +50, and we also get +(anywhere from 120 to 240 hp depending on class's hit die size).

[voxson5]

It was a bit confusing the way that image puts it but that's not what epic levels are changing to

Read Torc's table and the example again. It is very clear that epic (and legendary) levels are changed to +5hp/level.

He even notes "12 epic levels - 60 hp" in the breakdown example. 60 divided by 12 is... 5, which is what is stated in the table for the hp gain for each level above 20.

[dgtgtd]

I am not sure if you guys noticed, but Torc actually responded to this thread, stating "this is only preview 1 of 3."

First and foremost, I would like to say that we rarely see responses this quickly if at all these days. As a secondary comment, I think you guys all need to really tighten up with the bad attitude doom and gloom jargon. I don't know if any of you have ever worked in the service industry, but as a bartender, if you guys talked to me the way you talk to these devs, I would short pour you or flat out kick you out because you're probably a bad tipper anyway and I don't tolerate that ****. Have some respect. These are other human beings and they're not making changes just to "ruin your builds."

If you have a criticism, post your anecdotes, your reasons why, and leave it at that. This should be the standard for the forums these days and yet most of you are just disrespectful and childish, throwing tantrums and not even practicing enough patience to see if these things work. Give these devs a grateful community to work for and MAYBE they will work harder to actually appease your concerns instead of just looking at every single response and thinking, holy ****, what a bunch of babies. Refer to Zvdegor's post, where he concisely makes his point, suggests why his point is relevant, and ends his statement. BE LIKE THAT.

Thank you devs for all your hard work. This will take some tweaking, but I think you are on the right track here with removing EDF.

The problem with this is look at u56. There was tons of feedback, and all they did was fix bugs. They hardly seemed to listen to any actual feedback about the balance changes they made. This is why people are so doom and gloom.

[donblas]

Currently:
Ravager Capstone (Visage is fun!) + OS T5 (HP duh). Has KT, IC:S, and alright damage with a longsword. T5 Fury, SD Mantle (with Displace clickies), US C3 for HP.
HP: 3906 base, with 55% bonus = 6054 (25% EDF + 10% OS T5 + 10% FotW T5 + 10% Winter)

Afterwards:
Class HP +300 (per Torc's chart)
No enhancement changes = -25% competence via EDF as an entire loss. -5% Fury of the Wild.
Base = 4206 base, with 25% bonus = 5275.

This is a 15% HP loss.

779HP loss from 6054 is less than 13%. Still a loss, but not as big a % loss as you thought.

I could go capstone Ravager and T5 VKF/Falconry for the 20% competence HP, maybe swap to daggers using VKF or something? Falconry would get 5% Quality HP but terrible DPS and no dodge clicky; Dwarf would get 5% Quality HP if I had more Racial AP.
This costs me 210 HP (Core 1-5 + One Spirit), 94 temps/3s (given 186 MP), 60 Hamp, ~4 Con, and 23 MRR but I do get another defensive clicky and Deflect Arrows.
3906+300-210-60 = 3936, with 35% bonus = 5313 HP (20% T5 VKF + 5% FotW T5 + 10% Winter)

This is a 14% HP loss. Also VKF is the best Barbarian tanking tree?!? Falconry gives the most HP as a Barb tree?!?

That 741HP loss is actually 12% of 6054.

How about a Barb pure tank? I also threw one of these together b/c some guildies of mine were just discussing it. Also certainly not optimal lol, but it's a fast baseline.

Currently:
OS Capstone +T5, Ravager C5, Harper+Dwarf for a lil more HP.
HP: 4723 base, with 65% bonus = 7794 HP (25% EDF + 10% OS T5 + 20% US T5 + 10% Winter)

No changes:
+300 Base HP (per Torc's chart)
HP: 5023 base, with 30% bonus = 6530 HP (10% OS T5 + 10% US T5 + 10% Winter)

Yikes, that's a 19% HP loss.

That 1264HP loss from 7794 to 6530 is 16%, not 19%. As I said before, still a significant loss but not as big as you thought in % terms.

[mikarddo]

My alt level 21 iconic aasimar 11 rng, 9 rog Inquisitiv with 99 reaper points and a good deal of past lives gained ~150 hp in reaper. From 1678 to 1828.

Quite a surprise to be honest but I wont complain even if I dont really see why from the changes presented here.

[MaeveTuohy]

"Sorc/Wiz

Had to do a bit here since the "shorten" spell range play style is going away. "

Anyone know what this is supposed to mean?

[Monkey_Archer]

"Sorc/Wiz

Had to do a bit here since the "shorten" spell range play style is going away. "

Anyone know what this is supposed to mean?

Knight's transformation no longer limits spells to melee range. EDF no longer exists.

In exchange EK lost some dps and hp.

[SpartanKiller13]

779HP loss from 6054 is less than 13%. Still a loss, but not as big a % loss as you thought.

That 741HP loss is actually 12% of 6054.

That 1264HP loss from 7794 to 6530 is 16%, not 19%. As I said before, still a significant loss but not as big as you thought in % terms.

Please, open the calculator app and put in the following: 6054/5275 and tell me what you see.

You'll find out that it's 1.147677, which when translated to percentage is 14.7677% which I'm rounding to 15%. You can round it to 14% if you want but that's still >13%.

I could certainly have done the other math wrong (like where I listed US as still giving 20%) but I can at least use the division feature correctly lmao.

Is it 3 vs 4 a 33% difference or a 25% difference? Well that's philosophy/interpretation for you, but the math goes based on what numbers you put in.

Regardless of how ya look at it though, 12/16/16/19% or 741/1264 HP loss = pretty big hit.

Unless you're specifically arguing that Barbs should not be tanks - which should be part of a Barb balance pass not a HP pass even if it is decided by the devs.

For certain Barb tanks are the outlier HP-wise, but they have less of other features (like PRR/MRR or healing) which has so far ~balanced them (although obviously specific builds perform better in specific content). If that was not the case you'd see a lot more Barb tanks than you do. Anecdotally I mostly see Paladin or Paladin multiclass tanks, then Wizards, Warlocks, and Fighters - and after that FvS/Cleric mixes, and only then do I see Barb tanks. I'm not saying that's the overall case, just that I've personally seen very few dedicated Barb tanks. Clearly IMO that indicates it's not all about big HP bar.

Personally for my multiclass tank alt I'm estimating a 1% HP gain = it's totally whatever to me. I'm not even using EDF currently (so I can rez/heal at range) so it's not even a QoL buff for me.

[MaeveTuohy]

Knight's transformation no longer limits spells to melee range. EDF no longer exists.

In exchange EK lost some dps and hp.

Cheers

[mikarddo]

Please, open the calculator app and put in the following: 6054/5275 and tell me what you see.

You'll find out that it's 1.147677, which when translated to percentage is 14.7677% which I'm rounding to 15%. You can round it to 14% if you want but that's still >13%.

You are doing it wrong. What you are calculating is that 6054 is 14.8% more than 5275.

If you want to calculate how much less 5275 is than 6054 (the reduction we are looking for) you need to do (6054-5275)/6054 which is 12.9%.
You can also do 5275/6054 = 87.1% which translated to a deduction of 12.9% as well as it is 12.9% less than 100%.

Your mistake is a very classic mistake which I often see from my students as well as from others.

You always devide by the number you are coming from when you calculate percentages not by the number you are going to

[SpartanKiller13]

Your base hit point score is a good 500 points higher than the top range of what we were expecting after the stat squish. (Congrats?) We were kind of expecting the tip top people to maybe drop 50-100 hit points which in the grand scheme of things probably won't change the time to kill on them on any meaningful difficulty.

This is why we have previews.

Please remember this is preview 1 (of I believe 3) and it's very easy to tweak numbers. Also consider that the EDF casting range limitations will be going away. This may not be something you've cared about on a tank build before, but you have an easier time flexing into caster healing or maybe something else and there has to be trade offs to that even if you have no intention of using them.

I'd love to know more about your build. How you put that total together and what PRR/MRR are you running?

-T

Is there somewhere easy to share builds? I'm using Maetrim's so the files are easy to share then you can look at all the lil parts

Here's a non-optimized Barb tank with 7736 HP (with 72 Reaper points and like 50 PL's, whatever my main has). Note that Blood Feast is listing as 1k HP when it's really temp HP so I don't count it (also it's 1200 lol). Just while uploading these images I've found like 4 changes I'd make were I to actually try to optimize it, but you get the point.

It's not using LGS HP, it's really easy to build, and all the breakdowns are listed. It has 2 Legendary upgraded items, 3 raid items (different raids so not even competing for runes), and a Isle of Dread weapon which I don't own yet = I could get all the items aside from the sword within the week. Has like 8 augments, the only hard ones to get being Globe and a +14 Con Diamond. Has a 10-slot Sentient Weapon, but if you remove that it's still apparently higher than the top range of what you were expecting? And I'm pretty far from tip-top lmao.

I'm expecting to lose ~1200 HP depending on how the math shakes out. I could respec for Falconry T5 and only lose ~800 HP, but to me it seems pretty stupid that Falconry T5 is the best HP tree for Barbarians.

I care about EDF casting range limitations on my Cleric/Warlock/Pally tank - that's why I went Pally, so I don't need to use EDF. I'll bring that one for the LH runs. I don't care about EDF limitations on a Barb, because I can't afford Draconic T3 to be able to cast anyway.

[SpartanKiller13]

You are doing it wrong. What you are calculating is that 6054 is 14.8% more than 5275.

If you want to calculate how much less 5275 is than 6054 (the reduction we are looking for) you need to do (6054-5275)/6054 which is 12.9%.
You can also do 5275/6054 = 87.1% which translated to a deduction of 12.9% as well as it is 12.9% less than 100%.

Your mistake is a very classic mistake which I often see from my students as well as from others.

You always divide by the number you are coming from when you calculate percentages not by the number you are going to

You know what, fair enough. What I'm really calculating is that it'd take a 15% gain to get it back, which isn't really what we're looking at.

I'll accept that it's only a 13% loss. Still, -700/1200 doesn't line up with this:

We were kind of expecting the tip top people to maybe drop 50-100 hit points which in the grand scheme of things probably won't change the time to kill on them on any meaningful difficulty.

[songswrath]

you devs really show you dont play at all or have any understanding of the game you work for this is a huge nerf to melee's and will only buff ranged and casters. please stop trying to reinvent the game every update. just leave hps alone they are just fine. what's needed is other ways around damage mitigation. be it adjust the prr/ mrr curve to more benefit smaller amounts. < this will benefit newer players more than anything.

[Wizard1406]

We were kind of expecting the tip top people to maybe drop 50-100 hit points which in the grand scheme of things probably won't change the time to kill on them on any meaningful difficulty.

This is why we have previews.

Please remember this is preview 1 (of I believe 3) and it's very easy to tweak numbers.

This is right here is the most important part IMHO.

Please keep tweaking the numbers until the top HP builds lose no more than 50-100 hit points and all the low hp characters get signifcantly more (new players, lower hit dice melee etc.)

Thank you.

[BlueLiger]

1) Please place a % HP booster in Occult Slayer for Barbarian Tanks to use.

2) Consider adding a larger HP bonus to Barbs when raging based on Levels of Barbarian taken. This way the HP shouldn't change (hopefully actually improve lime many others) but is 'distributed' as it's been put in a different way other than the old just take EDF.

3) If HP are going to be adjusted and be lower in several cases perhaps adding PRR and AC or Dodge bonuses into the weapons style selectors for Melee builds could be added e.g. taking Single Weapon Fighting adds 1% dodge and +5 PRR, where as Two Handed Fighting adds + 5 PRR and +5 AC, with Greater and Improved and Perfect feats selection adding more to these bonuses

4) Consideration needs to be taken into account for Melee classes survivability in mid-high Reaper long term. Whilst these changes may not make a difference in Casual - Elite/R1 difficulty of play, the fact that Melee classes need to be in combat to actually do what it's class suggests it does, yet don't survive is the biggest problem the game has.

Maybe a reaper pass it what the game really needs before all this...


Finally on Barbarians in regards to this update- Whilst more HP for other classes is welcome remember what makes each class it's own class. In terms of Barbarian this is HP and Attack so removing a large chunk of HP from said class isn't a great move.

[Arlathen]

Love the changes they are making. REALLY HAPPY that EDF is going away, especially on my Ranger where he makes use of Tempest Melee and some Horizon Ranged in a Hybrid playstyle. And of course, getting the Competence bonus in Tempest is great news.

Suggestions:

1) Add some (10%? 15%?) Competence bonus to both Radiant Servant and Beacon of Hope. If Clerics and FvS are giving away there casting tree to be dedicated Healers then I think its fair they get some extra HP to survive too next to the Melee's.

2) Add some (10%? 15%?) Competence bonus to Deepwood Stalker, as this is a hybrid Melee/Ranged tree.

3) Does Tensers warrant changing too as Knights Transformation is also losing the range limit and functionally operates as a 'always on' Tensers (kinda...)?

REALLY looking forward to playing my Ranger in U57!

[Infiltraitor]

Cleric and Fvs tank or healer/tanks getting nerfed I think is fine although I'm sure many will disagree. I believe them getting as high hp as they were didn't make sense. Having anywhere between 11-17 levels of clr/fvs gave them great utility to heal very well, whether they chose to build for it or not. I believe they should be made as "tanky healers" rather than "tank healers." Although I'm sure characters with many past lives and reaper points can still tank very well.
.

Only 3 classes in DDO get heavy armor proficiency. They are Paladin, Fighter, and Cleric.

As a design choice, clerics are clearly meant as tanks and favored souls meant as DPS. The ability to heal is great in epic hard difficulty, but everything gets one-shot in epic hard. Tanking has no purpose outside raiding and Reaper difficulty as context.

There can’t be tanky healers. Healers are back line positions to minimize enemy exposure. Front line positions are exposed to constant enemy dps. A healer on the front line gains nothing but exposes himself to enemy aoe. In reaper, you then need a back line healer to heal the frontline healer since he can’t heal himself.

Are we okay with one of the only 3 heavy armor classes being unable to fulfill its role in Reaper difficulty?

Warpriests get no effective AC bonuses. No MRR bonuses. The lowest PRR bonuses of any tank class. No healing amp. No dodge.

Animal domain, 10% sacred, and EDF were the only thing keeping Warpriests able to do the job they were intended to do.

IF we want cleric war priest to be able to continue its intended role as a front line tank, you are going to need to add in 75 PRR and 37 MRR just to balance out the 15% hp loss. (Gain back 15% of 500 PRR and 250 MRR to balance out the 15% hp loss)

We CAN just say F it all and not care about the unintended effect of completely removing cleric war priest from doing its intended role but that’s a major MAJOR design decision that should not occur as an unintended effect.

[Bolo_Grubb]

I copied the 4 toons that I play on live to Lamannia to see how the Hitpoint changes would affect them. Below are the results, standing in the market place with ship buffs and their normal gear.

Level 20 multiclass inquisitive build not using EDF. (12 rogue, 6 ranger, 2 arti). Hitpoints: Live: 766 Lamannia: 868 Net change: +102
Level 30 Barbarian using EDF. Hitpoints: Live: 3,084 Lamannia: 3,143 Net change: +59
Level 32 Multiclass Tank build not using EDF. (12 pali, 4 arti, 4 fighter). Hitpoints: Live: 4,654 Lamannia: 5,057 Net change: +403
Level 32 Pure rogue Assassin using EDF. Hitpoints: Live: 2,203 Lamannia: 2,379 Net change: +176

[helpfulguy1234]

So I transferred a couple capped characters over. A 16/4 cleric/pally beefy healer gained about 350ish hp to around 3700. Ranger/arti inquis also gained some. Those were only 2 I could check.

Seems FVS and barbs are the ones taking it. And animal domain healers.

[Torc]

UPDATE:

After reviewing player feedback we quickly realized we got the top base hit point range wrong on advanced end game melee builds and as a result the Competence HP % modifiers are to low in may of the trees listed above. Thinking the base was smaller mistaken lead us to believe the new style hit point bonus would offset some % mod shrinkages. (when I say base I means your hit points BEFORE % increases)

We will be increasing said Competence modifiers for preview 2 as it wasn't our intention to significant impact these builds, And looking at monk, Master maker and Occult slayer who need some extra attention due to having a quality bonus in the mix. The Destiny changes are probably not happening or at least not going to look the same for preview 2.

In terms of feedback on raw hit point totals this preview will be a little bit of a wash for many elder end game players at least, but please continue to evaluate the location of the comp bonuses, the new combat style class hit point bonus, and other aspects of the pass. Posting builds in detail is very helpful.

On a side note we're looking at squeeze in a little fighter love since they seem splashed but rarely mained anymore.

-T