U57 Preview 1: Hit Point Pass

[Stravix]

Just taking a look at my assassin I currently get a 25% hp bonus from epic defensive fighting.

Instead my hit die goes from 6 to 8 and with twf, itwf, gtwf, ptwf I get 100% bonus to that so it goes to 16. Plus I gain a 20% hp for light armor mastery.

I keep hearing this is a nerf but it seems like my net hp goes up and I no longer need to drop epic defensive fighting to heal others and use res scrolls.

It seems like my hp go up and I lose the major disadvantage of epic defensive fighting. What I am missing that people think this is a nerf and I am thinking it's a buff? I haven't looked at every build so maybe assassins are just making out better than other builds.

It is a buff for most melee DPSs, but it turns closer to a breakeven (and even into a nerf) depending on how much base HP you received before from Con, items and reaper. (Aka, tanks are likely to lose HP, despite it all.)

That said, that can be mitigated with some number tweaks, which need to happen, and judging from dev comments here, is likely to happen.

[Zretch]

There is a super simple and super easy solution to give the HP back to all melee's without EDF. Remember EDF does not grant 25% competence bonus to HP, it grants 5% + 5% for each combat style feat to a cap of 25%. Just attach the bonus to the feats directly since only the highest source counts anyway.



There all builds are in exactly the same place they started, only no EDF requirement. Then they could adjust individual tree's as needed.

The only reason I could see them not wanting to do this, is if they had an ulterior motive of restricting potential HP growth going forward as the levels rise, since percentile HP bonus's scale better then static ones.

Obviously for any solution, someone is going to try to think of a way to exploit it.

Part of the reason EDF floored ranged power and made casting self range only is because they didn't want ranged and casters just getting free hitpoints when they already had mobility and range advantages over melee. They wanted a melee only benefit. Attaching free hitpoints to combat styles will likely just see ranged builds picking up fighter levels just for bonus feats so they can have the free hitpoints as well. Casters would be a little more restricted as capstones and caster levels are more impactful for them than for ranged characters, but certainly wizards would be picking up the single weapon fighting line, even if they were going pure caster as dead players do no DPS.

Putting the bonuses in T5 forces casters and ranged to either commit to a melee based tree and lock out T5 from any other tree (with the exception of Battle Engineer, queue the rise of 4 bolt repeater shooters with huge hitpoints and exploiting the living daylights out of the new imbue system), while still allowing for some multi-classing build diversity.

I'm still not entirely sure that hitpoints are the fix for melee DPS in reaper. Getting nuked by an AoE Horrid Wilting for 2,400 is going to sting whether you have 2,600 hps or 3,400 hps. The MRR cap and cleaving mobs seem like a better opportunity for improvement. If I get agro as melee DPS, let me die and die quickly. If I don't, then don't just kill me anyway by a stray swing or an AoE nuke centered on the tank.

[slarden]

tank specific builds are getting nerfed.

Thank you - I'll have to math it out. At least on my paladin 18/fighter 2 gains 260 hp @ 32 which gets multiplied by all my other bonuses, but then I lose the 10% bonus from unyielding sentinel. I already don't use EDF because I need to be able to throw quick heals to the healer and other party members so it's not worth the 5% extra bonus.

I am not sure what other mantle I would take with a tank as staying alive is job 1 - so not sure about the whole premise of more ED mantle diversity for tanks. I can see tanky solo builds, etc. benefiting from this.

[Kivandel]

Free idea:
Keep the changes.
Cut down EDF to 20% Competence max (saving the feat related progression as it was) and keep it as an option.

[helpfulguy1234]

Thank you - I'll have to math it out. At least on my paladin 18/fighter 2 I gains 260 hp @ 32 which gets multiplied by all my other bonuses, but then I lose the 10% bonus from unyielding sentinel. I already don't use EDF because I need to be able to throw quick heals to the healer and other party members so it's not worth the 5% extra bonus.

I am not sure what other mantle I would take with a tank as staying alive is job 1 - so not sure about the whole premise of more ED mantle diversity for tanks. I can see tanky solo builds, etc. benefiting from this.

The problem with mantle "diversity" is that in general, trees that try to do 2 things well, do zero things well enough at the highest difficulties. That's why US is such a great tree. It says (in a new york accent) "HEY!! Watch out! I'm tanking here!".

I think they should leave the mantle bonus alone, and if they feel like they need to reduce the bonus for people who take it without the mantle active (like I do on my healer, who uses EA mantle but t5 in US), the reduce the bonus there instead.

[Komradkillingmachine]

% Competence HP bonuses for all trees and classes should be placed in T3 or T4 enhancements instead of T5 to match current Sacred Defender and Stalwart Defender trees.

All of the melee classes should receive no less than 20% competence HP regardless of what class and hit dice they are.

Barbarian's HP is the MAIN selling point.

[helpfulguy1234]

%Competence HP bonuses for all trees and classes should be placed in T4 enhancements instead of T5 to match current Sacred Defender and Stalwart Defender trees.

All of the melee classes should receive no less than 20% competence HP regardless of what class and hit dice they are.

Barbarian's HP is the MAIN selling point.

Those are t3.

Other than that you're 100% right about the rest of what you said. I think t4 would be ablout right since Sacred/Stalwart are purely defensive trees.

[slarden]

The problem with mantle "diversity" is that in general, trees that try to do 2 things well, do zero things well enough at the highest difficulties. That's why US is such a great tree. It says (in a new york accent) "HEY!! Watch out! I'm tanking here!".

I think they should leave the mantle bonus alone, and if they feel like they need to reduce the bonus for people who take it without the mantle active (like I do on my healer, who uses EA mantle but t5 in US), the reduce the bonus there instead.

It's a fair point.

I just did the math and my tank gains 64 hp with the change as is.

I am not using epic defensive fighting because I value the ability to heal party members higher, but if I was using epic defensive fighting I would instead being losing 112 hp.

This is for a not-maxed-out but reasonably accomplished tank with total hp around 6k today.

[dkyle]

Bards
T5 - Swash Buckler - Second Skin, AP cost reduced to 1. Updated to: +1/2/3 Reflex Saves, +2/4/6 Max Dex Bonus to Armor. Rank 3 grants a +20% competence bonus to hit points.
T4 - On the Mark: AP cost reduced to 1 per rank
T5 - WarChanter - Howl of Winter will now also grant a 20% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original bonuses.

While you're at it, could we get Northwind reduced to 1 per rank as well? It's very overcosted for how little it actually does, and that would help compensate for Howl of Winter becoming an absolute must take (not that it wasn't already good).

[mikarddo]

Amusingly, this is exactly why melee can't survive. Super tanks require super mobs, which makes melee unviable. You do need to nerf US, and you also need to nerf super mobs and reverse the stat squish additional reaper scaling with them. For example, dual wield and multistrike mobs should deal half damage on offhand and additional attacks, and all mobs should deal less damage in higher reaper.

You are also making melee even less viable by buffing tank tree HP again, just like you did to maintain tank stats during stat squish while melee got nerfed, which contributed to this mess in the first place. Every tank tree buff has to correspond to a mob buff to compensate, which makes melee less viable. If you want to make melee more viable, you have to nerf tank tree survivability which allow mob nerfs, not buff them. Trade in some of that survivability for damage. You are breaking mechanics by allow super levels of specialization the d20 system is simply not designed to handle.

A very good point. It is a very tight balance though with tanks in DDO. Unless they are absolutely needed you are often better off without them. That does make striking the right balance very difficult.

[GramercyRiff]

Will melee dps be worth playing? That's the problem you need solve SSG.

[Monkey_Archer]

A very good point. It is a very tight balance though with tanks in DDO. Unless they are absolutely needed you are often better off without them. That does make striking the right balance very difficult.

Back in the day, tanks in ddo were just the melee dps barbarian with the most hp.

If the goal of nerfing Sentinel is so that 'other trees can tank too', it would make sense to start adding more damage to tank trees so they can 'dps too'

[LurkingVeteran]

So basically, T5 EK's now get +2 Evo DC, Comp hp and no downside? Nice. This seems better than all the other trees T5, at least for Sorc. This is of course mainly because Sorc trees are bad, but I digress. I guess some may still go falconry instead for the held damage increase.

[karatemack]

After more reflection, I'd like to throw another thought out there... EDF going away is actually a huge positive. Being able to boost HP without giving up the ability to effectively toss a rez scroll or even spells for Clerics/FVS is going to be really nice.

Now that they are increasing the competence bonus, and re-evaluating how to adjust for pass 2- I think it is very likely that we will end up in a better place than where we started. EDF was a bandaid fix that I'm happy to see get addressed in a more comprehensive way. I think more feedback that includes build-specific breakdowns from folks who are barb-tank experts would help inform the discussion.

[jskinner937]

Back in the day, tanks in ddo were just the melee dps barbarian with the most hp.

If the goal of nerfing Sentinel is so that 'other trees can tank too', it would make sense to start adding more damage to tank trees so they can 'dps too'

Back in the day it was who could hold aggro, which usually meant the highest threat/intim. Healers kept the tanks alive. I remember when you could tank in pajamas on a monk in earth stance. But that’s also when AC mattered as well.

[Emergencies]

I think war soul is the melee dps with defensive options. Medium armor, critical threat and multiplier, doublestrike.

War priest is the melee tank with offensive options. Heavy armor, 10% sacred hit points, and THREAT GENERATION.

Heavy Armor and Threat Generation are clear indicators of what the devs intended. They clearly wanted Warpriest to be the tank counterpart to war soul.

You are correct that nobody considers warpriest to be a tank tree, but every indication shows what the devs intended. It just happened that warpriest design was so weak that nobody considered that a possibility.

As for being on par with Sacred defender, different tank types fulfill different niches. Paladin AC tanks are the undisputed champion for tanking high volume of attacks due to having top tier armor class and PRR. Barbarian meat shields are the undisputed champions vs raid bosses with a single very high damage attack.

What we have is a third tank, that was clearly intended to be a tank, being inferior to both other tanks in all possible areas. Nobody else seems to be speaking up for Warpriest to fulfill its intended role. I shall.

I don't know if you've ever looked at war soul and warpriest side by side. They are literally identical other than the one ability in tier 5 and one core getting 10% hp. I believe Fvs didn't get the %hp due to easy access from the feat and that would be too strong. If cleric wanted that same hp with the 10% bonus they are forced to go animal domain, giving up other very good defensive or offensive choices. Also heavy armor is a really bad argument, barbs are top tier tanks yet should be played with medium armor for most raid scenarios. Your only decent argument is the 50% threat gen, however 50% is almost nothing compared to ftr and pally getting over 900% just from the class trees.

Also you are incorrect about paladin and barb. As of current stats on live, pally doesn't get the highest AC and barb is not the best against raid bosses. Both those titles currently go to fighter. Pally and ftr built in an optimal way have an AC difference of a flat 17 from the tree, 5% scaling, and the +3 enhancement bonus on both the armor and shield. Fighters also get much higher hp due to how many toughness feats they can take compared to paladin which accounts for the little prr they lose in the enhancement trees. Against raid bosses on high reaper fighter wins over barb. Assuming you build and play it right, you can hold over 9k hp and well over 600 prr (63,000 EHP), not even including how strong last stand is. Barbarians if built right can hold a bit over 10k but have a hard time holding over 500 prr without boosts (60,000 EHP) and that's also not even including the many problems a barb tank has. If barb damage reduction worked properly in reaper, barb would probably win however it doesn't. Check your math (if you even do any) before making a claim like that.

[Tilomere]

Hey folks! We are doing a pass on hit points. The goals here are to add a little more of a buffer for new players in general to make mistakes, and add a significantly larger buffer for melee builds.

Then you have to nerf the super tanks, as well as AoE CC spam such as Mass Hold/Color Spray/BoGW, all of which force mobs to be tuned too high for melee to survive. Then you can tune mobs lower.

If a caster can reliably lockdown 80% of the mobs, the remaining 20% have to deal 5x as much damage.

If a super tank has 63,000 EHP, and you want a mob to take it down in 10 hits of 6.3k EHP each, then it will 1 shot a 2k hp 200 PRR new player.

Zero out US and FoTW % HP. Eliminate EDF and defensive stance % hp, and replace it with raw hp in melee tree cores or per each melee feat and not just a few that a caster or ranged will pick up. Do not simply transfer your % mistake to other locations and expect a different result. That's the very definition of insanity. Plus you demonstrated already you don't have the resources to do it the way you are doing it the first several times (original EDs required EDF, second ED pass now requires a third ED pass).

Revamp LGS, but by giving it more spell crit damage/execute % and flat instead of % hp and so it is still meaningful as legendary raid loot and make it BTA so people can move it from tanks to alts.

Eliminate every single % hp source in the game, and convert it to flat hp.

Cap mass-helpless/instakill CC spells to 4 mobs. Cap mass-helpless tactical attacks to 5 mobs (assume a missed attack).

Lower mob damage.

[zappy]

UPDATE: After reviewing player feedback we quickly realized we got the top base hit point range wrong on advanced end game melee builds -T

this is incredibly concerning to me that what I consider to be the best public facing Dev in the game that creates the best raids in the game (torc) has no idea what the best players are playing for builds. I really hope that this will be a moment that gets big consideration from the dev team, that maybe they need to play the game that they work on. with the players that they are affecting on the servers that they own! And interact with the players of the game that they are responsible for, even if its in a fully anon way! Actually it would be best if it was in a fully anon way and you got into an endgame guild all on your own, into an endgame guilds discord to their private channels to view the best builds for yourself! and play r10s with good players and reaper raids with good players with builds that maybe you have never thought of.

i am quite glad that after consideration of the people in this thread using real actual math with real actual in game numbers were listened to. Too often the builds we love are nerfed into the ground with no consideration from the players at all! The general consensus for this thread is that EDF is the worst and everyone is glad its going away. Other then that, nobody really wants anything else to change.

did the devs really not know that barb tanks are even a thing? ohhh man. i dont like them, they are a sack of HP with little utility, and thats the trade for having the most HP, but they are the ONLY builds that work to tank high reaper raids. very niche.

one thing that i really hope for is that full heavy tanks like pure pally and fighter with 41+ points in Defender get around 60% of the DPS of a real DPS toon. this is the way that nearly every other MMO works, and in dnd specifically, there is no such build as just a tank, where ddo is an mmo that follows the holy trinity of heals dps and tanks, but the tanks you want for r1 raids dont really have any dps at all.


also. the way that the very best tanks in the game get the most HP is by using old as snot LGS opp items. All of us tanks truly wish for a new tank set with artifact %HP like the 4 peice winter set from feywild, but with more % or equal % to a 5 piece LGS set, and with items that are better than LGS, they are horrible, with no augment slots or even that good of effects when maxing on the HP LGS set augments. on my tank i am loosing 5 peices of gear to get %HP. 5. 5 peices with no augment slots. ouch. LGS came out with update 29. all the way back in 2015. tanks have not gotten new best in slot gear since 2015. 7 years. wow.

[Lotoc]

I don't know if you've ever looked at war soul and warpriest side by side. They are literally identical other than the one ability in tier 5 and one core getting 10% hp. I believe Fvs didn't get the %hp due to easy access from the feat and that would be too strong. If cleric wanted that same hp with the 10% bonus they are forced to go animal domain, giving up other very good defensive or offensive choices.

Just chiming in on this, fvs gets a much bigger degree of flexibility in warsoul, having capstone multi-selector options for strength, charisma or wisdom vs just Wisdom or Strength for Cleric. Meanwhile trancewise FVS has a selection of either Wisdom or Charisma while Cleric being a wisdom based class can only take a Charisma trance (which hey, doesn't actually benefit from their capstone options.) and lacks crit modifier in tree pigeonholing melee clerics into going War Domain or some other tree to get it, on top of this a fvs gets to use either wis or cha to hit as a default while cleric has to go 7 points into feydark or 12 into falconry (and if you want to go wis based 22 into falconry for an actually relevant trance.)

Don't get me wrong, both trees are pretty awful but Cleric's tree is rife with the opportunity cost of domains screwing it over and is very incohesive not only within but also with melee cleric itself wait, if I go animal domain cleric I get a charge attack that trips with a DC based off wisdom but my trance is for charisma and to hit it in the first place I need strength?
The only thing Cleric has going for it vs fvs is the sacred HP and now with the proposed changes taking it down to 5% an Aasimar FVS just gets more HP by default over a cleric... yet again.

[jskinner937]

Then you have to nerf the super tanks, as well as AoE CC spam such as Mass Hold/Color Spray/BoGW, all of which force mobs to be tuned too high for melee to survive. Then you can tune mobs lower.

If a caster can reliably lockdown 80% of the mobs, the remaining 20% have to deal 5x as much damage.

If a super tank has 63,000 EHP, and you want a mob to take it down in 10 hits of 6.3k EHP each, then it will 1 shot a 2k hp 200 PRR new player.

Zero out US and FoTW % HP. Eliminate EDF and defensive stance % hp, and replace it with raw hp in melee tree cores. Do not simply transfer your % mistake to other locations and expect a different result. That's the very definition of insanity. Plus you demonstrated already you don't have the resources to do it the way you are doing it the first several times (original EDs required EDF, second ED pass now requires a third ED pass).

Cap mass-helpless CC spells to 4 mobs.

Lower mob damage.

Effective logic Tilo. Far more effective than what the devs have demonstrated this far.

But I would also suggest all AoE including damage reduce to target max 4 mobs per cast. This would put spell cast AoE more in line with whirlwind and similar melee attacks, since the melee range is more limited than AoE spellcast.