U57 Preview 1: Hit Point Pass

[lronEnema]

Unyielding Sentinel:

Strength of Vitality reduced: Gain 2/4/6% insightful bonus to max hit points. Rank 3: Increase this bonus to 10% if the Mantle of the Sentinel is Active.

In here to make tanking less unyielding sent exclusive since this bonus was so large and to offset some of the increases from other sources.

[/INDENT]

This change makes no sense.

Unyielding Sentinel is the Epic Destiny for tanks: 'Unyielding offers great durability, a new taunt mechanic and some powerful healing tools. The playstyle has become more active rewarding attacking with only intermitted blocking. Useful for pure tanks or anyone looking to increase their survivability.' - your words.

Now you want there to be other tanking options.......... and you are going to achieve that nerfing Unyielding Sentinel. So where does that leave the balance for Unyielding. It has nothing else going for it. Nobody is in that destiny for healing believe me. The only characters who get the tier 5 enhancements from it are dedicated tanks (If anyone feels like chiming in with.....'well my nuker sorc runs T5 in US' - I'll put my 'You're doing it wrong response' right here, in advance).

What are you going to give to Unyielding Sentinel in exchange for the nerf to hit points. The tree has little going for it as it is. Why would anyone go to T5 other than for the hit points - 20% buff to hitpoins, plus the 5 quality in Deific Vengeance plus the 10,000 hit point clicky. taking away 10% percentage points of the 25% base hp buff bonus is a huge nerf to an underpowered destiny.

If US is not the tanking destiny, nobody is going ot take more than a splash in it as it stands

[Seph1roth5]

I like the idea of revamping EDF, because that touch range sucked, but I hate the idea of locking the HP to specific enhancement trees.

Why not just add in HP% to combat style feats? The whole POINT of EDF was to help melee from getting slapped down too fast in more difficult content. Not to help out certain builds. It's especially insulting to tie them to multiselectors so it's not only possibly wasting AP, but making you lose other (presumably good) enhancements as well.

[LeoLionxxx]

On a side note we're looking at squeeze in a little fighter love since they seem splashed but rarely mained anymore.

I suggest adapting the Second Wind ability to finally give Fighters a bit of self healing

Maybe something like a 50% heal, with a 1 min cooldown.

Upgrades apply extra stuff like breaking out of CC.

[superevbully]

[QUOTE=Torc;6547765]
This is why we have previews.

Please remember this is preview 1 (of I believe 3)




lololololololololol sry this is joke right lolol jeez

[kpak01]

So, I took a long break from the game after your shared bank bug cost me Over 9000! Threads of Fate and Customer "Service" refused to do anything about it, but a new ticket a year later actually got a response, so I'm around again.

A Quick Overview:

• Epic Defensive Fighting is going away. We are replacing it with many other options.

So EDF's goal was to shore up HP for melee. However, it's implementation was not good, leading to multiple perverse, play-distorting side-effects. I celebrate its coming demise. No more giving selfish players a valid excuse to not bother helping their teammates. No more people taking feats that give them no direct benefit. just to get EDF HP.

-Boosting the Base Hit Die of certain classes:

To keep the delta between a wizard and a barbarian tighter we shift the class dice around a little.

-All Classes with a Hit Die of d4 is increased to D6.

-Bard, Arty and Rogue are increased to D8s

-Ranger increased to D10s

Really, this is what I come back for? To see you removing even more Dungeons & Dragon from so-called "Dungeons & Dragons Online"? Every balance consideration aside, to me this is the single worst change proposed, for that reason alone. Scrap this immediately.

As for the balance aspect of it, it fails that, too. Did you learn nothing from EDF? Did you forget that the main point to create it was specifically to increase the delta? Why would you even want to tighten the delta? There's a reason we even have classes. Wizards are supposed to be way squishier than barbarians. Scrap this, and if you feel some class/role combo needs help, do it in their enhancements.

I have no particular comment, for or against, the Heroic enhancement changes.

Unyielding Sentinel:

Strength of Vitality reduced: Gain 2/4/6% insightful bonus to max hit points. Rank 3: Increase this bonus to 10% if the Mantle of the Sentinel is Active.

In here to make tanking less unyielding sent exclusive since this bonus was so large and to offset some of the increases from other sources.

Sentinel isn't just a "tank" tree. It's also a defensive and healing tree. I don't know how this Sentinel nerf affects overall game balance, but this makes me sad for my poor, 1st-life, definitely-not-a-tank dedicated healer. He's probably going to have to just be shelved, because he was barely durable enough for Reaper raids as-is. An immediate loss of 10% HP, and probably simply losing 20%, because the opportunity cost on other only 4% and only 6% will be a lot less competitive versus other Mantles and other T5s, respectively.

[karatemack]

UPDATE:

After reviewing player feedback we quickly realized we got the top base hit point range wrong on advanced end game melee builds and as a result the Competence HP % modifiers are to low in may of the trees listed above. Thinking the base was smaller mistaken lead us to believe the new style hit point bonus would offset some % mod shrinkages. (when I say base I means your hit points BEFORE % increases)

We will be increasing said Competence modifiers for preview 2 as it wasn't our intention to significant impact these builds, And looking at monk, Master maker and Occult slayer who need some extra attention due to having a quality bonus in the mix. The Destiny changes are probably not happening or at least not going to look the same for preview 2.

In terms of feedback on raw hit point totals this preview will be a little bit of a wash for many elder end game players at least, but please continue to evaluate the location of the comp bonuses, the new combat style class hit point bonus, and other aspects of the pass. Posting builds in detail is very helpful.

On a side note we're looking at squeeze in a little fighter love since they seem splashed but rarely mained anymore.

-T

More of this type of communication. Thank you for being open to honest and detailed discussion about how these changes would impact the game.

[Stravix]

Really, this is what I come back for? To see you removing even more Dungeons & Dragon from so-called "Dungeons & Dragons Online"? Every balance consideration aside, to me this is the single worst change proposed, for that reason alone. Scrap this immediately.

This is 5e DnD numbers, they are wholeheartedly still DnD.

As for the balance aspect of it, it fails that, too. Did you learn nothing from EDF? Did you forget that the main point to create it was specifically to increase the delta? Why would you even want to tighten the delta? There's a reason we even have classes. Wizards are supposed to be way squishier than barbarians. Scrap this, and if you feel some class/role combo needs help, do it in their enhancements.

Did you not notice the fact that if you have those combat feats, you basically get double hit die? This effectively have barbs at 2d12 per level, whereas a caster is at 1d6. Considering HP is maximized in DDO, a Barb's base HP is now 4x a caster wizards, instead of 3x. This just allows a melee wizard to still be able to exist (at half barb baseHP) if they devout 4 feats (and the associated stats) to it.

[Zdevor]

UPDATE:

After reviewing player feedback we quickly realized we got the top base hit point range wrong on advanced end game melee builds and as a result the Competence HP % modifiers are to low in may of the trees listed above. Thinking the base was smaller mistaken lead us to believe the new style hit point bonus would offset some % mod shrinkages. (when I say base I means your hit points BEFORE % increases)

We will be increasing said Competence modifiers for preview 2 as it wasn't our intention to significant impact these builds, And looking at monk, Master maker and Occult slayer who need some extra attention due to having a quality bonus in the mix. The Destiny changes are probably not happening or at least not going to look the same for preview 2.

In terms of feedback on raw hit point totals this preview will be a little bit of a wash for many elder end game players at least, but please continue to evaluate the location of the comp bonuses, the new combat style class hit point bonus, and other aspects of the pass. Posting builds in detail is very helpful.

On a side note we're looking at squeeze in a little fighter love since they seem splashed but rarely mained anymore.

-T

More of this type of communication. Thank you for being open to honest and detailed discussion about how these changes would impact the game.

Me also transferred my 1st lifer Vistani Renegade Mastermaker on Lamaland. Here are the details live vs Lama

live server: 2061 HP (after login)
Lama: 1963 HP (after login)

-98 HP
Breakdown:
live/Lama
Base:246/282
Con Bonus: 768/768
Feat Bonus: 415/415
Enchanted Bonus: 20/242
Fate Point Bonus: 78/78
Percentage Boost: 534/178

Total: 2061/1963

As you see I got +36 at Base, +222 at Enchanted and - 356 at Percentage Boost.
Difference is -98 HP

This is a 1st lifer toon so probably on my main, who is 1 time completionist and got a couple of more PLs, Epic completionist, Reaper completionist (156+ points) and got some racial lifes too could be much worse.

It is a proof that RMM tree needs a Competence Bonus Boost

Many Thanks!!!

[kpak01]

This is 5e

Don't care.

[Stravix]

Don't care.

Ahh yes, the good ole #NotMyDnD.

Like it or not, 5e is still DnD, and besides, these changes do exactly as you asked, increasing the delta between low hit die and large hit die classes, based on if they are melee.

[Aelonwy]

More of this type of communication. Thank you for being open to honest and detailed discussion about how these changes would impact the game.

So much this^! Thank you for listening to feedback Torc.

[Tilomere]

My cleric tank has 7000 hp, 490 PRR, 250 MRR, 240* AC. (Inside Reaper Difficulty, link in references at bottom)

A Paladin tank would be 7000 HP, 525 PRR, 325 MRR, 500 AC.

A Barbarian tank would be 7200 HP, 470 PRR, 290 MRR, 250 AC, and 14% damage reduction.**

Amusingly, this is exactly why melee can't survive. Super tanks require super mobs, which makes melee unviable. You do need to nerf US, and you also need to nerf super mobs and reverse the stat squish additional reaper scaling with them. For example, dual wield and multistrike mobs should deal half damage on offhand and additional attacks, and all mobs should deal less damage in higher reaper.

You are also making melee even less viable by buffing tank tree HP again, just like you did to maintain tank stats during stat squish while melee got nerfed, which contributed to this mess in the first place. Every tank tree buff has to correspond to a mob buff to compensate, which makes melee less viable. If you want to make melee more viable, you have to nerf tank tree survivability which allow mob nerfs, not buff them. Trade in some of that survivability for damage. You are breaking mechanics by allow super levels of specialization the d20 system is simply not designed to handle.

[WarDestroyer]

Two pieces of feedback:

1. Multiselectors such as Frenzied Berserker and Vistani aren't really a choice for melees, they must take the HP. This means that currently there is a soft, perhaps unintended damage nerf to those builds (resp. -5 MP -1[W] and -1/-1 crit toggle).

2. There is no source of competence % for dps bears, who will stand behind wolves in terms of HP.

Since your goal is not to shrink build diversity, I hope to see these addressed in the preview 2.

[Lotoc]

UPDATE:

After reviewing player feedback we quickly realized we got the top base hit point range wrong on advanced end game melee builds and as a result the Competence HP % modifiers are to low in may of the trees listed above. Thinking the base was smaller mistaken lead us to believe the new style hit point bonus would offset some % mod shrinkages. (when I say base I means your hit points BEFORE % increases)

We will be increasing said Competence modifiers for preview 2 as it wasn't our intention to significant impact these builds, And looking at monk, Master maker and Occult slayer who need some extra attention due to having a quality bonus in the mix. The Destiny changes are probably not happening or at least not going to look the same for preview 2.

In terms of feedback on raw hit point totals this preview will be a little bit of a wash for many elder end game players at least, but please continue to evaluate the location of the comp bonuses, the new combat style class hit point bonus, and other aspects of the pass. Posting builds in detail is very helpful.

On a side note we're looking at squeeze in a little fighter love since they seem splashed but rarely mained anymore.

-T

Having a quality bonus is not an excuse not to receive a competence bonus honestly, quality bonuses have alternative sources (falconry, dwarf, bladeforged, Unyielding Sentinel), in fact you went and gave Falconry a 20% competence bonus in t5 while it's the most used tree to get a quality bonus.
Please reassess such rationale, also do so for Warpriest, sure they get 5% sacred (down from 10%) but it also exists in Aasimar racial enhancements. It doesn't warrant Warpriest getting 15% vs Warsouls 20% when a warsoul having stout of heart is a given while a warpriest is practically required to go war domain, there's enough advantages to FVS especially in the war trees alone, please stop giving FVS even more over cleric.

[Infiltraitor]

Amusingly, this is exactly why melee can't survive. Super tanks require super mobs, which makes melee unviable. You do need to nerf US, and you also need to nerf super mobs and reverse the stat squish additional reaper scaling with them. For example, dual wield and multistrike mobs should deal half damage on offhand and additional attacks, and all mobs should deal less damage in higher reaper.

You are also making melee even less viable by buffing tank tree HP again, just like you did to maintain tank stats during stat squish while melee got nerfed, which contributed to this mess in the first place. Every tank tree buff has to correspond to a mob buff to compensate, which makes melee less viable. If you want to make melee more viable, you have to nerf tank tree survivability which allow mob nerfs, not buff them. Trade in some of that survivability for damage. You are breaking mechanics by allow super levels of specialization the d20 system is simply not designed to handle.

I think the real problem is that a raid boss than can reliably hit a 500 AC paladin will always 100% hit anyone else. The fact is that your armor is worthless as a melee. Dodge is almost impossible to get for many builds. You literally have no defensive options as a melee.

D20 works when your +8 dex bonus actually mattered.

[Abilbo]

So I tried out the new lamania quests, and wrote reviews on my experiance, and then went to TR to look at the changes to the artificer.

My bank is showing 87 oi 100 spaces uses. I emptied the bank out, and its now showing 76 of 100 items used, even though the bank is empty. I tried adding in items, but got to 100 of 100 spaces, and it would not allow me to add more. I then made sure that there were not any "tabs" in the shared bank.

This is an issue, The only way i can do a full TR now, is to delete a bunch of gear, because I don't have bank space to put it in. Not really an issue on lamania, but it would be if this patch went live.

[Sarandra]

In what world should my Wizard go up in hitpoints, while my Barbarian could lose HPs? I think you can read in many threads on the forums that a lot of melee have some issues playing end-game (R10s, push-raids, etc). This because the damage output of mobs is so high. This leads to situations where reasonable play can only be:

* Either mass-hold (or freeze, or stun) everything where no mob does anything at all, just stands in place, or
* Have a tank with intimidate that does not get hit or has such high defenses that the hits hardly register, take all the aggro

Both are the same: regular DPS melee shouldn't get hit at all, or they die in 1 or 2 hits.

I think there can not be a world in which *any* melee can go down in HPs. For instance, flat out reducing Lore of the Wilds in Fury of the Wild ED from 10% to 5% for my 20 barbarian will hurt, you can't simply claim "oh but Barbarians have enough HPs already, let's take them down a notch". And having barbarians spend APs in things to get their HPs back to the same level will hurt their DPS output (or tankability as I read from other people, I'm just trying to highlight my case here).

Look, I cannot easily calculate the difference in HPs for my barbarians, that's not something I typically do. I don't also know how to test this out on Lammania (I've only ever heard people mention this server here and there). But since yesterday when this news about the HP-review broke out, I've been worrying that this will reduce my barbarians' HPs. I've worked dang hard to get at least one of my barbarians to R10 viability, and it's still only borderline in my opinion (not DPS-wise, but HPs + defenses-wise).

Can you write out for us exactly what you are trying to solve? EDF may have been an ugly fix to a certain problem, but at least it helped every melee in the same way. Every melee got a bonus to better cope with close combat. If what you are trying to solve is remove EDF because it's an ugly fix, you can't replace it with something that is better in most cases, but loses HPs for some cases.

What I read now is: well, all rangers and arcanes, they'll gain HPs. Some melee like barbarians could lose HPs. Try match that with the explanation you gave to the answer to the question I asked in the previous paragraph.

[Dendrix]

Fighter Love: 1% Quality bonus HP per fighter level.

[Caarb]

On a side note we're looking at squeeze in a little fighter love since they seem splashed but rarely mained anymore.

-T

Please remove the focus weapon requirement from Kensai abilities - the class thats meant to be the most versatile actually ends up being the most restrictive - could even consider making the focus choice a stance so they can be changed on the fly.

[LilacDragon6]

Speaking of Fighter love, a Knight archetype would be pretty nice.