U57 Preview 1: Hit Point Pass

[noinfo]

Hey folks! We are doing a pass on hit points. The goals here are to add a little more of a buffer for new players in general to make mistakes, and add a significantly larger buffer for melee builds.

A Quick Overview:



Additional Changes coming in Lammania 2:

Unyielding Sentinel:

Strength of Vitality reduced: Gain 2/4/6% insightful bonus to max hit points. Rank 3: Increase this bonus to 10% if the Mantle of the Sentinel is Active.

In here to make tanking less unyielding sent exclusive since this bonus was so large and to offset some of the increases from other sources.

Fury of the Wild:

Lore of the Wilds: reduced to 5% primal bonus bonus to max hit points from 10% (but now no lore feats required)

UPDATE:

After reviewing player feedback we quickly realized we got the top base hit point range wrong on advanced end game melee builds and as a result the Competence HP % modifiers are to low in may of the trees listed above. Thinking the base was smaller mistaken lead us to believe the new style hit point bonus would offset some % mod shrinkages. (when I say base I means your hit points BEFORE % increases)

We will be increasing said modifiers for preview 2 as it wasn't our intention to significant impact these builds, And looking at monk, Master maker and Occult slayer who need some extra attention due to having a quality bonus in the mix. The Destiny changes are probably not happening or at least not going to look the same for preview 2.

In terms of feedback on raw hit point totals this preview will be a little bit of a wash for many elder end game players at least, but please continue to evaluate the location of the comp bonuses, the new combat style class hit point bonus, and other aspects of the pass. Posting builds in detail is very helpful.

On a side note we're looking at squeeze in a little fighter love since they seem splashed but rarely mained anymore.

-T

Shafting Barbs still who run in FB tree by requiring them to switch to a particular enhancement from a multi selector is not particulary fair in design, move it to another or make it part of all. They are getting a second nerf from the Fury tree being dropped to 5%.

Reducing Strength of Vitality to make it less a required tanking tree? This is a straight up nerf to tanks not a neurtal one. Other trees don't offer any other bonuses to them for straight up tanking. If your worried about it actually add bonuses to the other trees. What is the design goal of US again? Which tree do you think could be an alternative one? -Give this one some thought.

[Stradivarius]

-Torc

I think the idea of these changes is to shore up hit points in the low-end especially those who may be starting out and legitimately need a boost. I think this is a great idea. I see a lot of starter melees and potential tanks shy away from elite or even low reaper content because the game is absolutely stingy in doling out basic HP and general survivability early on. They eventually get discouraged and think the game is too difficult and ultimately quit.

That being said, I think fighters (the newbie class/playstyle of choice) should recieve something more especially in the front-end and throughout heroic leveling. I also think Barbs (that other newbie class/playstyle of choice) should have more sustain in HP and general survivability toward mid-parts to early endgame. Thanks for your hardwork Torc, I've kinda changed my mind especially since I think (probably wrong) I know where you guys are heading with all this in the future.

[Infiltraitor]

50% Threat gen and a little more defensives does NOT justify warpriest as a tank tree. That is the only difference between Warpriest and War Soul, which you stated as a melee dps with defensive options. 50% melee threat is not nearly enough to help hold aggro in pugs raids. It doesn't even have any function unless you are doing damage because tanks should be blocking. For regular questing, you can't even pull aggro from the first person that presses intim. Everything either dies too fast or you run high enough reaper to where you don't do enough damage fast enough to pull aggro.

Looking at the enhancement trees, sacred defender enhancements has 1 offensive option and Stalwart Defender has 3 offensive options. There are almost no damage options in either of those trees. Compare that to Warpriest which has 22 enhancements than can increase damage, which is over half of the tree. If you still think it's more of a tank tree than a dps tree I don't what to say.

Keep in mind, you started this discussion because I said Clr/Fvs tanks should be nerfed in my original post. If you splash 3-5 pally or ftr, they are almost in line with pure tanks if not better. They can heal themselves effectively and the entire raid party if they want. You also ignored that I made a 17fvs/3pal that could self heal through Kor-Kaza in R6. That was in U50, and it's easier now at level cap 32. Even for a fully completed toon, maxed out gear and stats (which it wasn't), that is beyond broken. Tank healers are heavily over-performing at the highest level which should be addressed. If you are still trying to make warpriest a tank tree as viable as Sacred Defender or Stalwart, you are just looking to buff your character and not worry about the actual balance of the game.

Bro.

This is me: Developer intent based on class features is X.

This is you: The current player meta is Y.

We are not talking about the same topic. You’ve made some good points and I’ve admitted that you are more knowledgeable about those points. However, we are talking about two different things. Heavy Armor is a pen and paper feature. It is a context clue to what the original pnp devs of dungeons and dragons intended for clerics to be. The fact that DDO devs gave threat generation to war priest is an acknowledgment of that role. The fact that it does not work in the existing player meta is a completely different conversation.

I am not trying to buff my cleric. I am preventing a nerf. In fact, partially thanks to my efforts, I saved your barbarian from losing 1200 hp in the next update. You are welcome btw.

Clerics have heavy armor and shield proficiency as class features. In pen and paper, they have comparable AC to fighters and Paladins. This pen and paper tank role carried over into warpriest. Warpriest was able to carry out its intended role poorly due to being weak but having access to epic defensive fighting and animal domain mitigated this.

The animal domain changes and loss of 10% sacred hp completely eliminated warpriest from being a viable tank. That is a major design decision that should not happen as a result of an unintended nerf. Booting warpriest out of its intended role is a design decision and not a balance decision. In that regard, understanding developer intent is the only argument that matters to the topic that I am talking about.

From the very beginning, I’ve been talking about cleric’s intended role that they have had since pen and paper. These changes prevent warpriest from its intended role, which makes these hit point balance changes an unintended design decision. That is an unintended effect that should not be made lightly. The surgeon is performing the wrong surgery. The existing player meta of a class split that can tank r6 kor Kazan is a completely different conversation.

Not noticing that I’m talking about something completely different even after 5 posts about developer intent is beyond full autistic. Developer intent. Developer intent. Developer intent. Developer intent. De.vel.op.er. In.tent.

They did not intend to make an accidental design decision during a balance update. Developer Intent. We are having two completely different conversations. Yes? Do you have anything to say about developer intent?

[Aredharr]

Hi All,

I love this pass and where all the discussions are going. I feel this is coming from a nice place and aimed at really creating something coherent/coesive. Since I'm a monk fan and play them a lot, I'd like to bring back a couple points flagged earlier and provide some suggestions.

For NS or HM, the extra 2 AP tax for self-defense is tough to swallow, especially in comparison to other classes in which the competence HP bonus is integrated in tree's must-have. I don't think this is off-set by the +2 dodge that the new enhancement provides. For example, Rogue TA get its HP competence bonus weaved in spinning staff wall, which also passively provides 5 dodge, 5 dodge cap, 5 MDB to light armor AND a 50PRR clickie for 20 seconds. This looks a lot like self defense to me!

Maybe this could serve as the inspiration for the new NS and HM self-defense enhancement and bring it more in line with meditation of war in Shintao while keeping the respective tree's flavour. Imagine this:

HM Self defense wall: Competence bonus to HP; 10 MRR cap and a 25 MRR clicky (that ignores cap) for 20 seconds (90 sec c/d)
That would be a nice flavour to have as a mystic and a much needed MRR mitigation system that would pair well with the cauldron's PRR

NS Self defense veil: Competence bonus to HP; 10 stacking incorporality and a stacking 25% incorporality clicky for 20 seconds (90 sec c/d)
Nice flavour, builds of Shadow Veil and would offset the fact that the enhancement doesn't provide bonus to light armor MDB

For Shintao, I agree that being integrated into meditation of war might not be the best option and somehow feels a bit contradictory with an objective of the pass, which wishes to provide HP earlier on in the game (given the downside associated with those HPs until cap). While I don't know the perfect solution here, I would rather have it integrated into rise of the phoenix. If the spirit of the phoenix burns within Shintao monks, maybe that can grant them some HP too.

What do you guys think?

[Triaxx2]

I've had two thoughts: First is the more important one, which is shield feats should give additional HP bonuses over the offensive feat lines, since those are most likely going to be the lines tanks are running down anyway. Doesn't have to be much, 110%-120% total, just to make sure that they can stand up to the very hard blows dished out by raid bosses/high-skull champs and reapers.

The second thought, specifically for barbs and the like, is when you create multi-selectors, one should be a high defense low/no damage option, and the other probably needs to be offensive/low defense option. So If you're taking Accelerated Metabolism you're getting 15% bonus HP, while if you take Raging blows, you'd get none. Instead, give AM 15% bonus HP and then 5% on Raging Blows. Now it's a less obvious choice. I can be tankier, or I can be less tanky and hit harder, but have an easier time surviving.

[Marshal_Lannes]

I understand the intention behind this idea but the execution of it should be approached with great care otherwise it will make changes to the meta exactly the opposite of the original intent, namely buffing ranged builds who don't engage in melee combat while having a net neutral or in some cases nerf effect on actual melee characters. Which characters? Well, leaving a competence bonus out of the Occult Slayer tree effectively dooms that tree. Players are going to build for trees that have competence bonus marks, these will be "must-haves" and any tree that doesn't have one falls out of use dramatically. Further, if high-end melee builds are losing HPs or breaking even then all this does is nerf them in relation to the HP gains that ranged characters will be getting. Barbarian, the hardiest class in the D&D lexicon seems to be the most affected here and the changes to HPs are not keeping up with them. They should become even more robust, not stuck treading water. Multi-class Druid (bear and wolf) combat builds also look to be taking it on the snout. Finally, there is no reason to nerf the Epic Destinies. Fury reduction by 5% is huge and there is no need to remove the wilderness lore requirement - that is the whole thematic nature of the tree! Hitting tanks in US, the class that most needs HPs, goes against the entire idea of increasing HPs. Can't we just remove the touch range of Epic Defensive Fighting and leave things be? And if not, then serious looks should be made at the many issues pointed out in this thread.

[Deivonte]

He is saying he had +20% comp and EDF...now EDF goes away but gets no further buff like other melees do, so it is a net loss. Maybe SD stance should get further buffed to compensate.

Ok, so maybe im really out of the loop, but isnt EDF a competence bonus and thus not stacking with defensive stances anyways?

[enkka1]

No idea what is the point with this too. HP is the least of the worries if its abit up or down. This game is in a group about min / maxing. Dps / defenses (dodge, prr, mrr, even ac) and cc. If that cc fails , tank doesnt intimi mobs the melee will just die in higher reaper if you dont something like double the hit points.

In solo play reaper is annoying nowdays with lots of melee builds. Aasimars lof nerf wasnt even funny. And ranged isnt what it used to be.

So i guess this u57 is to buff the casters even more and widen the gap to melees and ranged like they couldnt solo r10s already. Check Kyrrs vids with his caster druid if don't believe or understand how its done. Easily. But whatever we all remember Axer and the days when barbarians ruled the game ...

[Ordinary]

So, with my updated builder for U57 (which is released tonight) I compared my pre and post U57 hitpoint (with whats posted in this thread) totals which are:

Pre U57

· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Hitpoints · · · · · · · 3221· · · · · · ·
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Breakdown source ·Stacks · · ·Value· ·Bonus Type
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Epic Levels · · ·10 · · · ·100· · · · Class
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Legendary Levels · · · 2 · · · · 20· · · · Class
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Monk Levels · · ·20 · · · ·160· · · · Class
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Fate Points bonus · · ·56 · · · ·112· · · Special
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Constitution bonus · · ·32 · · · 1120· · · Ability
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·False Life · · · 1 · · · · 50· · FalseLife
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Past Life: Barbarian · · · 3 · · · · 30· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · Past Life: Primal Sphere: Colors of the Queen · · ·32 · · · · 15· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · Past Life: Primal Sphere: Colors of the Queen · · ·32 · · · · 15· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · Past Life: Primal Sphere: Colors of the Queen · · ·32 · · · · 15· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · · · · · ·Past Life: Primal Sphere: Doubleshot · · ·32 · · · · 15· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · · · · · ·Past Life: Primal Sphere: Doubleshot · · ·32 · · · · 15· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · · · · · ·Past Life: Primal Sphere: Doubleshot · · ·32 · · · · 15· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · · · · ·Past Life: Primal Sphere: Fast Healing · · ·32 · · · · 15· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · · · · ·Past Life: Primal Sphere: Fast Healing · · ·32 · · · · 15· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · · · · ·Past Life: Primal Sphere: Fast Healing · · ·32 · · · · 15· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · · · ·Agents of Argonnesson: Draconic Vitality · · · 3 · · · · 10· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Gatekeepers: Hit Point Bonus · · · 3 · · · · ·5· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · · · · · · · · ·House Deneith: Hit Point Bonus · · · 2 · · · · ·5· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · · · · · · · · ·House Jorasco: Hit Point Bonus · · · 2 · · · · ·5· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · · · · ·Purple Dragon Knights: Hit Point Bonus · · · 4 · · · · ·5· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Harpers: Hit Point Bonus · · · 3 · · · · ·5· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · · · · Past Life: Primal Sphere: Ancient Power · · ·32 · · · · 15· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · · · · Past Life: Primal Sphere: Ancient Power · · ·32 · · · · 15· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · · · · Past Life: Primal Sphere: Ancient Power · · ·32 · · · · 15· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · · · · · · Sharn City Council: Hit Point Bonus · · · 3 · · · · ·5· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · · · · · · · · · Summer Court: Hit Point Bonus · · · 3 · · · · ·5· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Heroic Durability · · · 1 · · · · 30· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Improved Heroic Durability · · · 3 · · · · 15· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Legendary Toughness · · · 1 · · · ·100· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Shintao: Conditioning · · · 3 · · · · 15· Enhancement
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Reaper's Defense II · · · 1 · · · · 20· · · ·Reaper
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Reaper's Defense IV · · · 1 · · · ·100· · · ·Reaper
· · · · · · · · · · Grandmaster of Flowers: Inner Focus · · · 1 · · · · 15· · · Destiny
· Grandmaster of Flowers: Disciple of Material: Crystal · · · 1 · · · · 15· · · Destiny
· Grandmaster of Flowers: Disciple of Morality: Chaotic · · · 1 · · · · 15· · · Destiny
· · · · · · · Grandmaster of Flowers: Strength of Stone · · · 3 · · · · 15· · · Destiny
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Fury of the Wild: Die Hard · · · 1 · · · · 20· · · Destiny
· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Fury of the Wild: Die Harder · · · 1 · · · · 20· · · Destiny
· · · · · · · · · · · · · Fury of the Wild: Die Hardest · · · 1 · · · · 20· · · Destiny
· · · · · · · · · · ·Fury of the Wild: Be the Whirlwind · · · 1 · · · · 20· · · Destiny
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · Legendary Skin-tight Gloves · · · 1 · · · · 44· · ·Vitality
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Hag Apothecary · · · 1 · · · · 20· · · · Guild
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Epic Defensive Fighting · · · 5 ·575 (25%)· ·Competence
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Falconry: Conditioning · · · 1 · 115 (5%)· · · Quality
· · · · · · ·Eminence of Winter: +10% Maximum Hitpoints · · · 4 ·230 (10%)· · Legendary
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Inactive Items · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·
· · · · · · · · · ·Dread Adversary: HP per action point · · ·41 · · · ·164· · · ·Reaper
· · · · · · · · · · Grim Barricade: HP per action point · · ·43 · · · ·344· · · ·Reaper
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Reaper's Defense I · · · 1 · · · · 10· · · ·Reaper
· · · · · · · · · Dire Thaumaturge: HP per action point · · ·12 · · · · 48· · · ·Reaper
· · · · · · · · · · Strength of Stone + Mountain Stance · · · 3 · · · · 15· · · Destiny
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Shintao: Meditation of War · · · 1 · · · · 10· · · Quality


Post U57 (as per this thread)

· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Hitpoints · · · · · · · 3199· · · · · · ·
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Breakdown source ·Stacks · · ·Value· ·Bonus Type
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Epic Levels · · ·10 · · · · 50· · · · Class
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Legendary Levels · · · 2 · · · · 10· · · · Class
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Monk Levels · · ·20 · · · ·160· · · · Class
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Fate Points bonus · · ·56 · · · ·112· · · Special
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Constitution bonus · · ·32 · · · 1120· · · Ability
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Style Bonus · · · 1 · · · ·220· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·False Life · · · 1 · · · · 50· · FalseLife
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Past Life: Barbarian · · · 3 · · · · 30· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · Past Life: Primal Sphere: Colors of the Queen · · ·32 · · · · 15· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · Past Life: Primal Sphere: Colors of the Queen · · ·32 · · · · 15· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · Past Life: Primal Sphere: Colors of the Queen · · ·32 · · · · 15· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · · · · · ·Past Life: Primal Sphere: Doubleshot · · ·32 · · · · 15· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · · · · · ·Past Life: Primal Sphere: Doubleshot · · ·32 · · · · 15· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · · · · · ·Past Life: Primal Sphere: Doubleshot · · ·32 · · · · 15· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · · · · ·Past Life: Primal Sphere: Fast Healing · · ·32 · · · · 15· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · · · · ·Past Life: Primal Sphere: Fast Healing · · ·32 · · · · 15· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · · · · ·Past Life: Primal Sphere: Fast Healing · · ·32 · · · · 15· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · · · ·Agents of Argonnesson: Draconic Vitality · · · 3 · · · · 10· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Gatekeepers: Hit Point Bonus · · · 3 · · · · ·5· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · · · · · · · · ·House Deneith: Hit Point Bonus · · · 2 · · · · ·5· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · · · · · · · · ·House Jorasco: Hit Point Bonus · · · 2 · · · · ·5· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · · · · ·Purple Dragon Knights: Hit Point Bonus · · · 4 · · · · ·5· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Harpers: Hit Point Bonus · · · 3 · · · · ·5· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · · · · Past Life: Primal Sphere: Ancient Power · · ·32 · · · · 15· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · · · · Past Life: Primal Sphere: Ancient Power · · ·32 · · · · 15· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · · · · Past Life: Primal Sphere: Ancient Power · · ·32 · · · · 15· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · · · · · · Sharn City Council: Hit Point Bonus · · · 3 · · · · ·5· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · · · · · · · · · Summer Court: Hit Point Bonus · · · 3 · · · · ·5· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Heroic Durability · · · 1 · · · · 30· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Improved Heroic Durability · · · 3 · · · · 15· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Legendary Toughness · · · 1 · · · ·100· · · · ·Feat
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Shintao: Conditioning · · · 3 · · · · 15· Enhancement
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Reaper's Defense II · · · 1 · · · · 20· · · ·Reaper
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Reaper's Defense IV · · · 1 · · · ·100· · · ·Reaper
· · · · · · · · · · Grandmaster of Flowers: Inner Focus · · · 1 · · · · 15· · · Destiny
· Grandmaster of Flowers: Disciple of Material: Crystal · · · 1 · · · · 15· · · Destiny
· Grandmaster of Flowers: Disciple of Morality: Chaotic · · · 1 · · · · 15· · · Destiny
· · · · · · · Grandmaster of Flowers: Strength of Stone · · · 3 · · · · 15· · · Destiny
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Fury of the Wild: Die Hard · · · 1 · · · · 20· · · Destiny
· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Fury of the Wild: Die Harder · · · 1 · · · · 20· · · Destiny
· · · · · · · · · · · · · Fury of the Wild: Die Hardest · · · 1 · · · · 20· · · Destiny
· · · · · · · · · · ·Fury of the Wild: Be the Whirlwind · · · 1 · · · · 20· · · Destiny
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · Legendary Skin-tight Gloves · · · 1 · · · · 44· · ·Vitality
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Hag Apothecary · · · 1 · · · · 20· · · · Guild
· · · · · · · · · · · · Meditation of War: Ocean Stance · · · 1 ·369 (15%)· ·Competence
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Falconry: Conditioning · · · 1 · 123 (5%)· · · Quality
· · · · · · ·Eminence of Winter: +10% Maximum Hitpoints · · · 4 ·246 (10%)· · Legendary
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Inactive Items · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·
· · · · · · · · · · · · ·Meditation of War: Wind Stance · · · 1 · · · · 15· ·Competence
· · · · · · · · · · · · · Meditation of War: Sun Stance · · · 1 · · · · 15· ·Competence
· · · · · · · · · · ·Meditation of War: Mountain Stance · · · 1 · · · · 25· ·Competence
· · · · · · · · · ·Dread Adversary: HP per action point · · ·41 · · · ·164· · · ·Reaper
· · · · · · · · · · Grim Barricade: HP per action point · · ·43 · · · ·344· · · ·Reaper
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Reaper's Defense I · · · 1 · · · · 10· · · ·Reaper
· · · · · · · · · Dire Thaumaturge: HP per action point · · ·12 · · · · 48· · · ·Reaper
· · · · · · · · · · Strength of Stone + Mountain Stance · · · 3 · · · · 15· · · Destiny
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Shintao: Meditation of War · · · 1 · · · · 10· · · Quality


Which gives us Pre of: 3221 and post of 3199 (22 hp lost)

Not a huge loss assuming I have not messed up any of the changes

[Azoyhn]

Bro.

This is me: Developer intent based on class features is X.

This is you: The current player meta is Y.

We are not talking about the same topic. You’ve made some good points and I’ve admitted that you are more knowledgeable about those points. However, we are talking about two different things. Heavy Armor is a pen and paper feature. It is a context clue to what the original pnp devs of dungeons and dragons intended for clerics to be. The fact that DDO devs gave threat generation to war priest is an acknowledgment of that role. The fact that it does not work in the existing player meta is a completely different conversation.

I am not trying to buff my cleric. I am preventing a nerf. In fact, partially thanks to my efforts, I saved your barbarian from losing 1200 hp in the next update. You are welcome btw.

Clerics have heavy armor and shield proficiency as class features. In pen and paper, they have comparable AC to fighters and Paladins. This pen and paper tank role carried over into warpriest. Warpriest was able to carry out its intended role poorly due to being weak but having access to epic defensive fighting and animal domain mitigated this.

The animal domain changes and loss of 10% sacred hp completely eliminated warpriest from being a viable tank. That is a major design decision that should not happen as a result of an unintended nerf. Booting warpriest out of its intended role is a design decision and not a balance decision. In that regard, understanding developer intent is the only argument that matters to the topic that I am talking about.

From the very beginning, I’ve been talking about cleric’s intended role that they have had since pen and paper. These changes prevent warpriest from its intended role, which makes these hit point balance changes an unintended design decision. That is an unintended effect that should not be made lightly. The surgeon is performing the wrong surgery. The existing player meta of a class split that can tank r6 kor Kazan is a completely different conversation.

Not noticing that I’m talking about something completely different even after 5 posts about developer intent is beyond full autistic. Developer intent. Developer intent. Developer intent. Developer intent. De.vel.op.er. In.tent.

They did not intend to make an accidental design decision during a balance update. Developer Intent. We are having two completely different conversations. Yes? Do you have anything to say about developer intent?

I'll place a big bet of 3 heroic otto boxes that Warpriest is not a tank based tree. It has tank qualities and tank features but isn't the main attraction. I don't know why you're arguing two people who have mained and played clerics on this subject. It is a beefy dps tree at best, haste and critical comp to weapons isn't a tank feature, or tier 5 giving doublestrike, heck the t5 intervention isn't even a tank ability, it's a support ability to prevent someone from dying, not a tank itself. I suggest you stop calling people autistic because that's frankly offensive and you're borderlining being a problem. I'm trying to be nice but I'm telling you THAT WAS NOT RHE DEVELOPERS INTENT.

[Emergencies]

Bro.

This is me: Developer intent based on class features is X.

This is you: The current player meta is Y.

We are not talking about the same topic. You’ve made some good points and I’ve admitted that you are more knowledgeable about those points. However, we are talking about two different things. Heavy Armor is a pen and paper feature. It is a context clue to what the original pnp devs of dungeons and dragons intended for clerics to be. The fact that DDO devs gave threat generation to war priest is an acknowledgment of that role. The fact that it does not work in the existing player meta is a completely different conversation.

I am not trying to buff my cleric. I am preventing a nerf. In fact, partially thanks to my efforts, I saved your barbarian from losing 1200 hp in the next update. You are welcome btw.

Clerics have heavy armor and shield proficiency as class features. In pen and paper, they have comparable AC to fighters and Paladins. This pen and paper tank role carried over into warpriest. Warpriest was able to carry out its intended role poorly due to being weak but having access to epic defensive fighting and animal domain mitigated this.

The animal domain changes and loss of 10% sacred hp completely eliminated warpriest from being a viable tank. That is a major design decision that should not happen as a result of an unintended nerf. Booting warpriest out of its intended role is a design decision and not a balance decision. In that regard, understanding developer intent is the only argument that matters to the topic that I am talking about.

From the very beginning, I’ve been talking about cleric’s intended role that they have had since pen and paper. These changes prevent warpriest from its intended role, which makes these hit point balance changes an unintended design decision. That is an unintended effect that should not be made lightly. The surgeon is performing the wrong surgery. The existing player meta of a class split that can tank r6 kor Kazan is a completely different conversation.

Not noticing that I’m talking about something completely different even after 5 posts about developer intent is beyond full autistic. Developer intent. Developer intent. Developer intent. Developer intent. De.vel.op.er. In.tent.

They did not intend to make an accidental design decision during a balance update. Developer Intent. We are having two completely different conversations. Yes? Do you have anything to say about developer intent?

Almost this entire time I've been talking about developer intention when talking about Warpriest. Those stats do not justify the developers making it as a tank tree. Maybe you never realized that just because I never used the word intention, but I felt like it should've been obvious. As for pen and paper, there are many things that don't transfer accurately into DDO and I don't think there should be. The balance and enjoyment of the online game is more important than just making it accurate to its original source. Warpriest should not be considered a tank tree, through any numbers or any type of intention from the developers.

On the topic of balance, you did not "save my barb". The only thing you mentioned was it losing 1.2k HP, but provided no evidence on how it specifically was getting nerfed. There was no shown math or accurate testing on Lamm for my barbarian on your part (and as far as I know there are only couple people in the entire game that can build/play a barb tank like I do, you are not one of them). All the math and testing for a barb tank was done by myself and other players. As for tank healers, they should be nerfed. Fvs and Cleric tanks are too strong currently on live. They can get up to 6/7k hp with good gear and some past lives. That is more than a lot of the pure tank players in the entire game. Even with lesser stats, tank healers can still carry parties and entire raid groups without outside support. R6 Kor Kaza is not a completely different conversation, the fact that it can be tanked is already impressive to most players. But the fact it can be done with a tank healer SOLO is a major issue. I'm sure there are quite a few people that could pull that off on live, more than just myself. The HP changes the did to animal domain and stout of heart should just be pushed straight to live in my opinion (that is not including any other changes). Those builds will still be strong from their utility to heal and survive, but it is going to be a lot more demanding of past lives and reaper points to be considered a tank healer rather than a tanky healer.

[Sarandra]

Just logged into my DPS barbarian on Lammania to check the changes... Going down from 2831 HP to 2659 HP (non-rage, non-reaper).

What, am I going to have to fight next to rogues and rangers that have more hitpoints than me now? Are you fricking serious?

Let me make this clear, as I posted already on a thread in DDO general discussion: If my barbarian's hitpoints go down, I am out of this game. No more €'s spent from me. I hope I am making myself clear here, this hitpoint change is badly thought out joke. Delete, and start over!

[Stravix]

Just logged into my DPS barbarian on Lammania to check the changes... Going down from 2831 HP to 2659 HP (non-rage, non-reaper).

What, am I going to have to fight next to rogues and rangers that have more hitpoints than me now? Are you fricking serious?

Let me make this clear, as I posted already on a thread in DDO general discussion: If my barbarian's hitpoints go down, I am out of this game. No more €'s spent from me. I hope I am making myself clear here, this hitpoint change is badly thought out joke. Delete, and start over!

This right here is something of note: because of where and how the competence HP bonuses are now placed, there will be a notable number of builds which will receive the opposite impact from these changes that what is intended. Make the comp bonuses in T5 trees more accessible, as FB barbs will not want to give up +1[W] and 5 MP to simply keep their HP when other trees don't have to make that sacrifice.

EDIT: Spelling

[nobodynobody1426]

I wouldn't put any competence bonus's inside any enhancement tree's, it's asinine and makes winners and losers almost randomly. Put them directly inside the combat style feats, only the highest one works anyway and it will accomplish the exact same thing without needing EDF.

Posted this before, it solves everything without breaking anything and gives newer players a bonus to their HP rather then getting it all at level 21.

Base Combat Style Feat = 5% competence bonus
Improved Combat Style = 10% competence bonus
Greater Combat Style = 15% competence bonus
Perfect Combat Style = 25% competence bonus

If a caster wants to spend feat slots for 5% competence bonus, let them.

[Stravix]

I wouldn't put any competence bonus's inside any enhancement tree's, it's asinine and makes winners and losers almost randomly. Put them directly inside the combat style feats, only the highest one works anyway and it will accomplish the exact same thing without needing EDF.

Posted this before, it solves everything without breaking anything and gives newer players a bonus to their HP rather then getting it all at level 21.

Base Combat Style Feat = 5% competence bonus
Improved Combat Style = 10% competence bonus
Greater Combat Style = 15% competence bonus
Perfect Combat Style = 25% competence bonus

If a caster wants to spend feat slots for 5% competence bonus, let them.

Personally, I disagree.

A combination of flat HP bonuses from combat style feats and % HP bonuses from melee enhancement trees is the best route, as it:

1: Gives other %HP sources more relative value.
2: Equalizes out sources of flat HP from (mostly) just reaper points
3: Helps squish the expected HP for melee combatants, allowing easier balancing.

[Taranthiel]

Reducing Strength of Vitality to make it less a required tanking tree? This is a straight up nerf to tanks not a neurtal one. Other trees don't offer any other bonuses to them for straight up tanking. If your worried about it actually add bonuses to the other trees. What is the design goal of US again? Which tree do you think could be an alternative one? -Give this one some thought.

I would be ok with the 2/4/6% while not in mantle if they left the 20% for having the mantle activated.

[axel15810]

As noted, pretty big nerf for healbots who are getting animal domain nerfed and never used EDF anyway. By my calculation 300hp animal domain bonus will be reduced down to 104hp.

Adding some kind of tier 5 radiant servant competence HP bonus would be cool. Especially since Cleric healers lag behind FVS healers already in the meta. Maybe not the 15% that tier 5 warpriest is getting per the original post, but something to offset the animal domain loss. Yeah tier 5 RS users not using animal domain like the war domain melee cleric I play or cleric caster/healers using tier 5 radiant servant or healing domain clerics will see a further buff but I don't think that's much of a balance concern.

[Cashiry]

As noted, pretty big nerf for healbots who are getting animal domain nerfed and never used EDF anyway. By my calculation 300hp animal domain bonus will be reduced down to 104hp.

Adding some kind of tier 5 radiant servant competence HP bonus would be cool. Especially since Cleric healers lag behind FVS healers already in the meta. Maybe not the 15% that tier 5 warpriest is getting per the original post, but something to offset the animal domain loss. Yeah tier 5 RS users not using animal domain like the war domain melee cleric I play or cleric caster/healers using tier 5 radiant servant or healing domain clerics will see a further buff but I don't think that's much of a balance concern.

I would agree with your thoughts....

[Azarak]

Cleric

Class Feat - Cleric Animal Domain hit point bonus reduced to 4 hit points per level and 2 hit points per epic/legendary level

The cleric domains are generally not very good but animal domain's hp is one of the few that you can generally use for most builds, nerfing it just seems like unnecessary injury to something that is lacking to begin with.

[Thar]

Ok, so maybe im really out of the loop, but isnt EDF a competence bonus and thus not stacking with defensive stances anyways?

if you were a tank you would take EDF for free instead of putting points into competence stances as it's the same bonus and use the enhancement points for other hp/con enhancements instead.