We NEED to NERF Casters...

[slarden]

As an enthusiastic Wiz player, that got me interested.
Could you share some details? (even on PM )

cheers
Elk

Nothing too exciting here. Bladeforged 17 wizard / 3 paladin in draconic, magus and unyielding sentinel. Mass hold and meteor swarm are my two level 9 spells.

Just to clarify the build solos mid skulls and groups up for R10s. I am not soloing on R10s with this build.

Feydark Illusionist T5/Capstone focusing on illusion and enchantment with scion of the feywild. Uses force, fire and cold.

I use salt LGS in offhand but swap to shield against bosses when soloing. Against mobs use greater color spray, ring of shadowblades, meteor swarm, arcane tempest, ice storm to keep mobs salted. I try to time mass hold right, when soloing right before dragon breath. In R10s I usually just focus on keeping mobs salted and cc'd and by the time I am ready to use dragon breath the mobs are down.

For aoe I use ring of shadowblades (sometimes kiting if I have to when soloing), dragon breath, cold light of the moon, meteor swarm, arcane tempest

Trap the soul against low-will save enemies at range and finger of death against low-fort enemies at range.

I get rid of the arcane spell failure from adamantine plating with bladeforged, EK enhancements and filigree.

For single-target I have both greater ruin and arcane pulse buffed with draconic/magus on top of other wizard single target dps and the draconic dot. Since these buffs can't be turned off I go with force/fire/cold so I have a backup against things like iron golems (the greater ruin and arcane pulse buffs can't be turned off).

It's a high survivability cc/blaster build basically. Nothing ground-breaking, but I like high hp, prr, mrr, balanced dps (aoe and single target) builds for soloing.

In R10s with healers friend the cleric says I am reasonably easy to heal as I have healer's friend instead of repair amp in the bladeforged tree and some additional healing amp support.

Melees need to invest on "to hit" roll while casters do not. Spells always hit 100% as long as they have the line of sight. This is the most glaring unbalanced mechanic in DnD. Pathfinder balances this by using Dexterity check to roll whether the spell lands or not. If spells have a chance to not land then casters are forced to invest on their survival in addition to their damage. Right now, in DDO, casters can ignore everything in their build except damage as long as they strike first.

I think this is a misconception - and a large one.

If the enemy makes their save damage is reduced to 50% in most cases. Then if they make their save and have evasion it's reduced to 100% in most cases where the save is a reflex save. So effectively it works the same way pathfinder and pen and paper works. There are a small # of useful spells with no save.

There is also damage reduction, immunities and sometimes spells flat-out misfire due to lag.

As far as ignoring everything except damage in caster builds, this is true in any high-end raid build whether caster, ranged or melee. In general when I build a caster for soloing it's very much a generalist with a high investment in survivability because casters are squishy without this.

[LavidDynch]

Melees need to invest on "to hit" roll while casters do not. Spells always hit 100% as long as they have the line of sight. This is the most glaring unbalanced mechanic in DnD. Pathfinder balances this by using Dexterity check to roll whether the spell lands or not. If spells have a chance to not land then casters are forced to invest on their survival in addition to their damage. Right now, in DDO, casters can ignore everything in their build except damage as long as they strike first.

In DDO we have lag and terrain to counter this

I think there are ways of balance this, clearly most casters have an unending string of AOE spells that all do the same thing anyway... so... Nerf it so all casters have one big AOE with 12s CD, perhaps add another one on a longer CD.. and the rest of spammable AOE nerfed by ALOT, maybe by 200/300%, increase the single target spells by 300%... Now they are way more balanced without being gutted.. which they never will be. Remember that warchancer still has one cleave that can CC somewhat on 30s CD, just to give out some proportions on what DEVS think of melee vs casters. Its laughable.

[Zeleron]

...The game was knocked out of balance by the changes to meld, dire charge and to a lesser extent a few other things...

By kicked out of balance you mean tanks where made more useful and got to play instead of just every melee filling in for that role on top of dps***

[EinarMal]

In DDO we have lag and terrain to counter this

I think there are ways of balance this, clearly most casters have an unending string of AOE spells that all do the same thing anyway... so... Nerf it so all casters have one big AOE with 12s CD, perhaps add another one on a longer CD.. and the rest of spammable AOE nerfed by ALOT, maybe by 200/300%, increase the single target spells by 300%... Now they are way more balanced without being gutted.. which they never will be. Remember that warchancer still has one cleave that can CC somewhat on 30s CD, just to give out some proportions on what DEVS think of melee vs casters. Its laughable.

I really hope the devs ignore this thread, it is filled with terrible ideas like this one. Do you solo? Do you want to kill the game? If they did this casters would not be able to solo anything even on R1 heroics. It would take forever to complete quests and you would run out of spell points long before a shrine.

I feel like the people making suggestions (most of them anyway), must not actually play the game or play casters.

Casters do have "to-hit" it is called DC, spell resistance, and evasion, not to mention immunites, mob resistance and a lot of other problems.

You cannot just look at R10 Druids/Sorc/Alchemist at cap for people with top end gear and all the past lives and balance the game around that.

[Hedd]

How about buffing melee? People get their egos hurt and immediately scream NURF while every recent update has been taking more and more from melee dps even though they've been underperforming at endgame for awhile now. Give people reasons to build melee and not reasons not to play casters.

[slarden]

By kicked out of balance you mean tanks where made more useful and got to play instead of just every melee filling in for that role on top of dps***

Nope, that isn't what I mean at all. A tank was always important when those were in play. Sure it was used as a way to take doom reapers prior to the change, but that was a relatively unimportant thing. I tanked hundreds of R10s both shortly before and shortly after the change. It didn't make tanks suddenly useful as some claim. It just hurt certain melees and causes them to die more.

I mean in an encounter where you are taking heavy damage despite there being a tank (think orthons in reaper vision of destruction or any fight with aoe cleave high damage), you had the option to meld and go in with a lower chance of death. Or in a place where the boss frequently changes aggro regardless of tank threat such as the devil in R10 what sleeps below.

On my assassin with dodge, dodge clickies, high reaper points, swap affirmation offhand weapon, etc. I can manage those encounters fine, but those type of encounters are much harder for melees without such tools with meld gone. The melee survivability chatter before and after the ED pass is very reflective of the impact losing meld had on some builds.

I really hope the devs ignore this thread, it is filled with terrible ideas like this one. Do you solo? Do you want to kill the game? If they did this casters would not be able to solo anything even on R1 heroics. It would take forever to complete quests and you would run out of spell points long before a shrine.

I feel like the people making suggestions (most of them anyway), must not actually play the game or play casters.

Casters do have "to-hit" it is called DC, spell resistance, and evasion, not to mention immunites, mob resistance and a lot of other problems.

You cannot just look at R10 Druids/Sorc/Alchemist at cap for people with top end gear and all the past lives and balance the game around that.

Unfortunately I think some of the legitimate melee survivability issues get lost in these type of threads because of claims such as casters hitting enemies with spells 100% of the time for full damage.

Melee DPS is superb and not an issue. Some ranged and caster aoe damage might be out of alignment and need adjustment, but I haven't seen any new information that supports the idea that all casters need a nerf across the board. If enlarged dps aoe spells are taking fun out of the game for some players perhaps that specific issue should be looked at and evaluated.

The problem that SSG probably can't solve at this point is the character power gap and how much it buffs certain characters. The extra power from past lifes, reaper, etc. turns otherwise unviable builds into powerhouses. Having top gear also makes a significant impact, but not as much as grind power.

[JOTMON]

We don't need to nerf casters. We need to buff melee/ranged! We need to raise everyone up. Not destroy people. I empathize with you. But clubbing others because you feel bad isn't the correct answer.

SSG could allow the DDO store to come the rescue.. for a price...
no need for players of caster builds to be funding DDO store sales disproportionately, time to let non-casters crack their wallets.

Mana pots give casters a significant power boost that is not comparably offered to non-casters in the DDO store product listings.

A way to rectify this imbalance without penalizing money spenders...
I suggest adding to the DDO store:

Potion: action boost reset - resets action boosts to full

Potion: KI - adds ki energy (varying strengths like mana pots)

Potion: Time Jump - cooldown alacrity that eliminates fractions of time from all cooldown timers (varying strengths)



for those that think this may be OP... keep in mind the conduit to power access that mana users have and what DDO can do to entice players of non-mana characters to spend more $$$.


any other suggestions for DDO store boosters ?

[LavidDynch]

I really hope the devs ignore this thread, it is filled with terrible ideas like this one. Do you solo? Do you want to kill the game? If they did this casters would not be able to solo anything even on R1 heroics. It would take forever to complete quests and you would run out of spell points long before a shrine.

I feel like the people making suggestions (most of them anyway), must not actually play the game or play casters.

Casters do have "to-hit" it is called DC, spell resistance, and evasion, not to mention immunites, mob resistance and a lot of other problems.

You cannot just look at R10 Druids/Sorc/Alchemist at cap for people with top end gear and all the past lives and balance the game around that.

They are balancing it around HC these days, rest assured. You can totally solo stuff with just one nuke, CDs will just control the tempo. And also, once you get past most of the caster hurdles it is mainly lag and terrain that is an issue.

[cadaverash]

We NEED to nerf casters. Just pull the bandaid off now and let them take the sting now.

You need to quit making your melee builds wisdom based halfling pali's that specialize in kamas.

I have had quite a few melee toons that work just fine and get more kills than casters in raids.

Stop saying we need to nerf other classes, this is not a pvp game.

[Vellrad]

Just remove weighted dice from spells, "problem" fixed.
(you know, dealing d3+3 instead of d6s)

[PaddyMaxson]

Until very recently I'd have said don't need casters, just buff melee and let me tell you, playing a life as an ice druid has me thinking nerf ice druid, lol

[Axcarth]

Maybe this can add some to this discussion.

https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showth...ss-World-First

Recently posted by a, without any doubt, great (caster) player.

[Aelonwy]

How about buffing melee? People get their egos hurt and immediately scream NURF while every recent update has been taking more and more from melee dps even though they've been underperforming at endgame for awhile now. Give people reasons to build melee and not reasons not to play casters.

This^! I don't play much melee, but my hubby and son do. I tend to support them with my casters via buffs, CC and healing. But both hubby and son would like their melee to do better and it seems like as front-line dps what they need most is better defenses because mobs do tons of ridiculous damage. I think in the tone down of mobs to go with gear reduction & epic destiny revamp of U50/51 SSG did not go far enough with reducing mob damage and mob to hit. I said it then, and look here we are needing to improve over all HP and melee at least desperately needing more defenses. But what are they doing? They were talking about giving mobs dodge bypass. What the heck metric are they even using?

Buff melee defense
Buff melee CC
Improve melee AoE

That^ is what needs to happen... that or reduce mob damage and to-hit.

[Stradivarius]

This^! I don't play much melee, but my hubby and son do. I tend to support them with my casters via buffs, CC and healing. But both hubby and son would like their melee to do better and it seems like as front-line dps what they need most is better defenses because mobs do tons of ridiculous damage. I think in the tone down of mobs to go with gear reduction & epic destiny revamp of U50/51 SSG did not go far enough with reducing mob damage and mob to hit. I said it then, and look here we are needing to improve over all HP and melee at least desperately needing more defenses. But what are they doing? They were talking about giving mobs dodge bypass. What the heck metric are they even using?

Buff melee defense
Buff melee CC
Improve melee AoE

That^ is what needs to happen... that or reduce mob damage and to-hit.

The whole dodge bypass is the most bizarre idea I have ever heard. I'm starting to think that the developers of this game don't really play their own game anymore (which I don't really put against them since doing anything for 17 years especially a video game where you're not the one playing can get mind numbingly boring fast).

But they are so comically devoid of all understanding of their own game that it's frankly nerve wracking, like watching some teenager at the controls of a nuclear reactor, "hey, what's this button do? ..press"

Don't get me wrong though, they do roll out some great content still even after all these years,thoroughly enjoyed IoD. It's just they don't seem to be on the up and up about player-level things. The HP/imbue pass is very telling.

Anyway, hopefully they will listen to players more. Some things just aren't really debateable, there is a consensus even amongst the player community. They should home in on that low-hanging fruit in my humble opinion.

[yfernbottom]

This^! I don't play much melee, but my hubby and son do. I tend to support them with my casters via buffs, CC and healing. But both hubby and son would like their melee to do better and it seems like as front-line dps what they need most is better defenses because mobs do tons of ridiculous damage. I think in the tone down of mobs to go with gear reduction & epic destiny revamp of U50/51 SSG did not go far enough with reducing mob damage and mob to hit. I said it then, and look here we are needing to improve over all HP and melee at least desperately needing more defenses. But what are they doing? They were talking about giving mobs dodge bypass. What the heck metric are they even using?

Buff melee defense
Buff melee CC
Improve melee AoE

That^ is what needs to happen... that or reduce mob damage and to-hit.

Completely agree with this. I mainly play melees and ranged martial characters, I have no issues contributing in a party with casters. However melee characters do need better defense.

One thing that would help a lot is for heavy armor to be more useful. I expect to be kind of squishy if I'm on a dodge based character with light armor. I do not expect to be that squishy if I am wearing plate. However for a character that wants to also do good DPS, dodge/ concealment/ ghostly is really the only viable defensive build strategy that can go along with it. Giving mobs dodge bypass won't suddenly make wearing plate more attractive, it will just mean even more melees getting splattered by mobs. AC is not a good defense past about level 10 unless you have so much of it that your DPS sucks.

[GeneralDiomedes]

I say give meles more speed options, such as 'jump-to-mob' attacks. Biggest complaint I see from melees is that the mobs are all dead before they get there.

[slarden]

I say give meles more speed options, such as 'jump-to-mob' attacks. Biggest complaint I see from melees is that the mobs are all dead before they get there.

This has alot to do with enlarge also and due to most people running easier content than they are capable of.

[Tyrande]

This has alot to do with enlarge also and due to most people running easier content than they are capable of.

Nerfing enlarge meta-magic would only make dungeon completions slower, i.e. melees leveling with the caster slower.

Sure, its a good ego building feat for the melees who can hit and probably kill a few mobs then, but does the loot or XP increased based on kill counts or does it based on dungeon and optionals completion? Why is everybody thinking that max kill count = DPS = better character = ego booster?

I'll admit it here first, yes, I often hit 'X' to see how many kills, but ...

in regular P&P desktop campaigns, does the paladin in the party complained that... hey, that's my goblin, that's my kobold, that's my halfling, thou shalt not kill...

Does the wizard complain... that hey, my fireball didn't get that last bit of kobolds not in the blast and the mongrel brutes barbarians in the party got rid of them?