Reducing power gap

[ned_ellis]

Yeah that would be good. Most people will never get to play with any significant amount of RAP and so missing out on interesting / fun builds. Since you'll usually need all your regular AP for the class and universal trees.
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Yeah exactly like HOrc with lots of RAP looks a lot more fun than trying to decide if it's worth losing Core 5 on your secondary barbarian tree lol.

Exactly this. Bolded for emphasis.
The only system that is designed in a diametrically opposite way to all the others that doesn't so much impact overall power (compared to 'normal' pl's) as build possibilities, that also has a backloaded aim for the diehards (racial completionist) - would love a Dev explanation to this choice if not a commitment to invert the benefits (not completionist though - should stay where it is).

The game has changed so much over the years that even a one-off chance to cannabalise all the abandoned alts would be nice too but the rpl's are the big one; I don't even care about the god-awful reaper point system compared to this (allthough for the OP this should be considered too with regards the 'gap')

[SpeakerForTheDead]

As a "newer" player, i can definitely agree that the power gap is HUGE and discourages me a lot. ever after months of gaming and a few past lives i dont have anywhere near the stats of ALL the "pros." it's not just a small matter either, they all have like 2x my hp and do several times the dmg i can do. even after playing for months now and getting up a few past lives on my main and some good gear, i'm still basically useless for harder endgame stuff with groups.

The problem is there are 2 diff kinds of gamers: "pro" and "casual". and the game is really only designed for the pros still. at the rate i'm able to play i'll never have anywhere near the reaper pts and past lives of the pros, and thus i know i'll never be useful in end game content with the pros. because of this, I'm seriously considering not playing this game anymore, and thus not putting anymore money into it, because i want a game where i can actually be useful in a group for endgame content. and since i'm not able, and dont want to, devote my entire life and all my time to this game, i'll never have a character that can compete with the pros that have been playing for years and build up past lives every few days.

I get that the devs want to reward players for playing a long time, but new players need to be able to feel useful in battle too.

for the record i think the reaper system is currently horrible for new players trying to game with the pros. you just cant compete on dmg, everything kills you too fast cause you dont have an extra 2-4x your hp from reaper pts. and you cant even self-heal well anymore, for some crazy, insane reason i'll never understand. and it would take years and years for me to build up the 100+ pts these ppl get. after months and months i've only got 6 reaper pts on my main. the way the game is designed it will take YEARS to be useful with the pros. the gap is HUGE. so huge that it's not fun...

similar thing with sentient weapons/filigrees. takes dozens and dozens and dozens of hours just to farm the useless items to feed to your sentient weapon. and the gap from a starting endgame weapon to a fully upgraded one with filigree sets is HUGE. it takes months for a player like me to grind all that, and all that time i'm pretty useless in groups. combine all this stuff together and it's not very fun feeling this useless in battle for this long when i play with others... and knowing it's still gunna take months of grinding before i'm useful is very discouraging. it's def going to be making lots of newer players quit. i guarantee it.

[Oxarhamar]

As a "newer" player, i can definitely agree that the power gap is HUGE and discourages me a lot. ever after months of gaming and a few past lives i dont have anywhere near the stats of ALL the "pros." it's not just a small matter either, they all have like 2x my hp and do several times the dmg i can do. even after playing for months now and getting up a few past lives on my main and some good gear, i'm still basically useless for harder endgame stuff with groups.

The problem is there are 2 diff kinds of gamers: "pro" and "casual". and the game is really only designed for the pros still. at the rate i'm able to play i'll never have anywhere near the reaper pts and past lives of the pros, and thus i know i'll never be useful in end game content with the pros. because of this, I'm seriously considering not playing this game anymore, and thus not putting anymore money into it, because i want a game where i can actually be useful in a group for endgame content. and since i'm not able, and dont want to, devote my entire life and all my time to this game, i'll never have a character that can compete with the pros that have been playing for years and build up past lives every few days.

I get that the devs want to reward players for playing a long time, but new players need to be able to feel useful in battle too.

for the record i think the reaper system is currently horrible for new players trying to game with the pros. you just cant compete on dmg, everything kills you too fast cause you dont have an extra 2-4x your hp from reaper pts. and you cant even self-heal well anymore, for some crazy, insane reason i'll never understand. and it would take years and years for me to build up the 100+ pts these ppl get. after months and months i've only got 6 reaper pts on my main. the way the game is designed it will take YEARS to be useful with the pros. the gap is HUGE. so huge that it's not fun...

similar thing with sentient weapons/filigrees. takes dozens and dozens and dozens of hours just to farm the useless items to feed to your sentient weapon. and the gap from a starting endgame weapon to a fully upgraded one with filigree sets is HUGE. it takes months for a player like me to grind all that, and all that time i'm pretty useless in groups. combine all this stuff together and it's not very fun feeling this useless in battle for this long when i play with others... and knowing it's still gunna take months of grinding before i'm useful is very discouraging. it's def going to be making lots of newer players quit. i guarantee it.

Reaper was supposed to be a difficultly for those who were no longer challenged by the game

[Bunker]

As a "newer" player, i can definitely agree that the power gap is HUGE and discourages me a lot. ever after months of gaming and a few past lives i dont have anywhere near the stats of ALL the "pros." it's not just a small matter either, they all have like 2x my hp and do several times the dmg i can do. even after playing for

The problem is there are 2 diff kinds of gamers: "pro" and "casual". and the game is really only designed for the pros still. at the rate i'm able to play i'll never have anywhere near the reaper pts and past lives of the pros, and thus i know i'll never be useful in end game content with the pros. because of this, I'm seriously considering not playing this game anymore, and thus not putting anymore money into it, because i want a game where i can actually be useful in a group for endgame content. and since i'm not able, and dont want to, devote my entire life and all my time to this game, i'll never have a character that can compete with the pros that have been playing for years and build up past lives every few days.

I get that the devs want to reward players for playing a long time, but new players need to be able to feel useful in battle too.

for the record i think the reaper system is currently horrible for new players trying to game with the pros. you just cant compete on dmg, everything kills you too fast cause you dont have an extra 2-4x your hp from reaper pts. and you cant even self-heal well anymore, for some crazy, insane reason i'll never understand. and it would take years and years for me to build up the 100+ pts these ppl get. after months and months i've only got 6 reaper pts on my main. the way the game is designed it will take YEARS to be useful with the pros. the gap is HUGE. so huge that it's not fun...

similar thing with sentient weapons/filigrees. takes dozens and dozens and dozens of hours just to farm the useless items to feed to your sentient weapon. and the gap from a starting endgame weapon to a fully upgraded one with filigree sets is HUGE. it takes months for a player like me to grind all that, and all that time i'm pretty useless in groups. combine all this stuff together and it's not very fun feeling this useless in battle for this long when i play with others... and knowing it's still gunna take months of grinding before i'm useful is very discouraging. it's def going to be making lots of newer players quit. i guarantee it.

There are a few different ways of looking at the gap between players and characters. First off, there is a gap between fully geared out characters. Obviously a maxed out completionist with all the top gear will be miles ahead a character that is a first lifer with nothing but random loots.

However, the real gap is in player knowledge and player skill/ability. Take the hardcore server as an example. Everyone is on the same playing field. Same rules. There are more than a few players that make it to cap, run end game content(including raids) and they are doing this from a first life build. No extra action points, possibly 1-20 reaper points.

I myself have a character on HC server, currently level 23, with approximately 550-650 hit points, depending on gear. And yes, he gets smacked for 300-400 points of damage occasionally. **knock on wood** but still alive for the moment.

Don't think for one second you cannot take a first life build and be useful. You definitely can.

I am not denying there is a gap. I do think the gap get exaggerated. And I also think that the gap should be there to an extent, and players should do better to be accepting of the gap.

[SpeakerForTheDead]

Reaper was supposed to be a difficultly for those who were no longer challenged by the game

but now it's the new norm, and even easy for veteran players. the players i've known with high reaper pts say that the early reaper quests are easier for them than elite because of all the bonuses they get from reaper trees and equipment. going from elite to reaper shouldnt make the game easier for them while making it much harder for newer players. considering most groups are reaper groups, this means that newer players cant join in on the fun with vets unless they are fine with being useless most or all of the time... for years...

[Bunker]

but now it's the new norm, and even easy for veteran players. the players i've known with high reaper pts say that the early reaper quests are easier for them than elite because of all the bonuses they get from reaper trees and equipment. going from elite to reaper shouldnt make the game easier for them while making it much harder for newer players. considering most groups are reaper groups, this means that newer players cant join in on the fun with vets unless they are fine with being useless most or all of the time... for years...

A lot of vets run reaper right out of the gate on a new build. It isn't like reaper points are given to vets on new characters. They are earned the same way a new player earns them.

A big part of why it is easy for vets in reaper, is because they have probably run that quest 100+ times. Game/quest knowledge out weighs reaper points. However, I will say that having that extra HP from reaper points is probably the biggest advantage.

[Oxarhamar]

but now it's the new norm, and even easy for veteran players. the players i've known with high reaper pts say that the early reaper quests are easier for them than elite because of all the bonuses they get from reaper trees and equipment. going from elite to reaper shouldnt make the game easier for them while making it much harder for newer players. considering most groups are reaper groups, this means that newer players cant join in on the fun with vets unless they are fine with being useless most or all of the time... for years...

While having high point may make Reaper a bit easier you get those points from doing reaper everyone starts with none and the points are front loaded

Reaper can be run on a first life character on HCL with limited gear it’s game knowledge that really sets veterans apart there

I’ve run reaper with new players recently and my Lfm are open regardless of skill level

[PaddyMaxson]

My personal opinion on DDO's seemingly interminable grind is that there needs to be some way for new players to catch up WITHOUT putting in as much time as the old players have spent.

If you want to keep the exclusivity of having spent way too long on the game then give some sort of reward to the people who've already done it but make it easier on the people who haven't yet (and if it's a cosmetic, please give us a cosmetic wardrobe like the horse and pet ninventories)

I'm a scant 15 racial lives short of racial completionist now and I've done 8 lives in the last 6 weeks. I'd appreciate if the racial bonuses took just two racial lives purely out of selfish reasons, but I am considerably over half way there now, so I'd hope it's plain to see that I'm not just shying away from the grind, after all, even if this happened it'd be after I've finished those last 15.

DDO's biggest failing for new players is the fact that joining public groups is just a **** shoot. Either you don't own the pack because the free quest code stopped, or the deep discount stopped, or if you do you will be dragged backwards through the hedge of groups doing R1 quickly when you're new and built for at best for doing elite slowly. It needs something to make new players not feel totally useless/confused.

I suppose the other option is a stat squish so all those past lives are less of a difference from no past lives but nobody likes getting nerfed. Better to give new players a leg up than old hands a millstone to carry.

[SpeakerForTheDead]

you're right, knowledge is huge in this game too. just keeping up with the vets who know every twist and turn and where to go and what to click and what path to take over and over when you dont already means that as a new player in a group you're going to be just trying to keep up a lot, and might be a bit late to every fight. this already gives new players a big disadvantage for usefulness. add on top of that the fact that most chars in this game have lots of reaper pts and past lives, and new players are going to often feel like more of a burden for not being able to contribute much compared to the other chars, while needing to be rezed more often cause they'll die fast on the high reaper difficulties most groups want to play now. yes, if you know what you're doing you'll be more useful, but new players dont know what they're doing, and often just get to get in a couple hits or spells in a fight that would have ended at about the same time if they werent even attacking. they wont have the hp to tank, they wont have the dc's needed to land spells well, and the dmg they deal is often minimal, esp with all of the low dmg builds in this game's many, many options of which new players dont know the best choices yet. this all leads to new players feeling useless when trying to play with other people, and i think that is what will cause them to stop wanting to play. when you're in a group you want to feel like you're useful, not like you're just tagging along in the back all the time with much lower stats and hp than most players.

[SpeakerForTheDead]

oh, and new players should be given a basic looking horse. you can't keep up with players questing in wilderness areas without them and new players dont get them, while all vet new chars prob do.

[Oxarhamar]

oh, and new players should be given a basic looking horse. you can't keep up with players questing in wilderness areas without them and new players dont get them, while all vet new chars prob do.

There’s horse in the DDO store

[ned_ellis]

As a "newer" player, snip.

Thank you for sharing your point of view as a newer player. It confirms the difficulty of 'rolling with the big boys' and the perception of what it takes to be able to.
Sadly the responses are only about the importance of player knowledge from - as is sadly often the case - vets pre-2010 which, whilst valid, is not something that can actually be improved by SSG and hence a moot point in these discussions. Doesn't stop them though; I wonder why....

I would suggest you don't concentrate on 'grinding' for named loot or anything like that but rather trying to stick with what you deem fun whilst growing your toons; grinding to catchup is pointless and would take years and will remove any enjoyment from the game. Depending on what you deem fun (this is a great aaspect of most of this game - one can find one's niche!) also concentrate on builds that need less investment to work so you can dip your toe in higher difficulties/content/groups and then slowly build yourself up.
Hopefully by then they will have corrected the distribution of power acquirement or there will be a mega-server where it is easier to not feel excluded!

[rabidfox]

The problem is there are 2 diff kinds of gamers: "pro" and "casual". and the game is really only designed for the pros still. at the rate i'm able to play i'll never have anywhere near the reaper pts and past lives of the pros, and thus i know i'll never be useful in end game content with the pros. because of this, I'm seriously considering not playing this game anymore, and thus not putting anymore money into it, because i want a game where i can actually be useful in a group for endgame content. and since i'm not able, and dont want to, devote my entire life and all my time to this game, i'll never have a character that can compete with the pros that have been playing for years and build up past lives every few days.

Most pugged raids are run on LH. Gear, gear, gear is the thing; farm out a good set of gear if you want to run that aspect of endgame (no MMO expects players to run raid content without having built out their gearset at cap). You'll be able to keep up just fine in that. You'll even be able to run low/mid-skulls on quests as an effective party member; and you can move into higher skulls as you feel more comfortable in reapers.

for the record i think the reaper system is currently horrible for new players trying to game with the pros. you just cant compete on dmg, everything kills you too fast cause you dont have an extra 2-4x your hp from reaper pts. and you cant even self-heal well anymore, for some crazy, insane reason i'll never understand. and it would take years and years for me to build up the 100+ pts these ppl get. after months and months i've only got 6 reaper pts on my main. the way the game is designed it will take YEARS to be useful with the pros. the gap is HUGE. so huge that it's not fun...

1st lifer on HC. Hit cap, farmed out gear over a couple nights in a weeks times, then ran r4's on all the quests, hit 20+ reaper points just off doing them all once. It doesn't take long or too much effort to be able to start running stuff at cap, but it does take some effort and planning to set yourself up to be able to succeed in a party.

Thank you for sharing your point of view as a newer player. It confirms the difficulty of 'rolling with the big boys' and the perception of what it takes to be able to.
Sadly the responses are only about the importance of player knowledge from - as is sadly often the case - vets pre-2010 which, whilst valid, is not something that can actually be improved by SSG and hence a moot point in these discussions. Doesn't stop them though; I wonder why....

I know I keep responding because I want people to have realistic expectations where a chunk of the power gap is. If you're new/casual and in a party with someone who does r10s at cap and speed levels 1st lifers on HC, then you'll get an invalid view of the game. A lot of players who lists LFMs are leveling machines who tear thru content on whatever we're playing (be it on a 1st life poorly geared alt or a total completionist that's gear to the teeth). There are guilds out there that help people learn the basics, gear up, and take things slower; people that do stuff with similar playstyle/setup guildmates are likely a better representation of the actual game than LFMs (where new players often get paired up with randoms that may be killing TRing powerhouses).