Reducing power gap

[jirksa]

Hi, all!

This is my taky on introducing amechanics - hopefuly easy to implement mechanics - for reducing power gab between players in a fair way.

Motivation:

• New Players are discourage by the amount of grind it takes to be as good as other players
• Its not fun runing through dungeon at slower pace, than some completionist that as far ahead AND clearing all the mobs by himself
• Its hard to play together with new players, R1 is too hard for them, Hard is too easy for veteran players

Power gab reduction rules:

• If Player A is stronger than Player B before the reduction, it should stay that way after the reduction for every combinations of player
• If Veteran Player A took X hours of farming pastlives and gear, then after the reduction, it should take new players the same time to match player's A new power level.
• The time it takes to become uber completionist/reaper xpert/cover in raid gear/R10 solo player should stay the same -> so the reduction doesn't devaluate uber players' effort

CAN these rules be satisfied at the same time? YES!

The Problem:
Power progression is a linear or rather progressive function. This means that on average you are getting the same or rather greater increase in power level by every hour you play.
Pastlives - linear bonuses. You play 1 pally life = 10 heal amp, second another 10 heal amp. But the time dependency is progressive since it takes you less and less time to farm these PLs
Completionists - totaly progressive. You are not getting it until you invest a lot into this game
OP gear - totaly progressive. Most OP gear have set bonuses, which means the true power unlocks when all the pieces are farmed.
Reaper gear - totaly progressive. 10 reaper shards? nothing. 50 reaper shards? nothing 75 reaper shards? Boom - here is +2 reaper bonus to all stats
sentient jewels - degresive. You need to feed more and more for the next filigree slot. Thats what we want!
and so on ...

The Solution:
Make all these stuff degresive. That means that you will get the biggest increase/ the biggest bonus the first time you achieve something. Repeatedly achieving the same or similar thing will yield diminishing returns. How this can work?:

• Past lifes - 1st Pally PL = 15 heal amp, 2nd PL = 10 heal amp, 3rd = 5 heal amp. As you can see it will give bigger bonuses to new players, but uber completionist will have the same bonuses. Also it will take the same time to become Uber completionist.
• Gear - This is a tough one. Maybe give slightly more raid runes to occasional players? When you play a raid 2 times a week, you will get exactrly the same number of runes as now. If it is more then a week since your last raid run, maybe give 30% more? If this is your first time raiding, maybe 200% more runes? Exact numbers have to be calculated to be fair to everyone, but you get my point - casual players will have more chance getting raid gear, but will still have less runes than some raid maniacs.
• Reaper crafting - maybe lower the cost of reaper crafting BUT make reaper items exclusive to equip? And if you want another reaper item you need to upgrade both items with some additional reaper shards, so they can be simultainiously equiped? If you want 3 items - upgrade all 3. So by apllying reaper bonus to an item for lets say 30 reaper shards, the item will have set bonus of: this shall be your only reaper item, you can then upgrade this item to set bonus - You can have 2 items now? Exact numbers have to be again calculated, so it will not increase the overall cost compared to uber players with 12 pieces of reaper gear.
• and so on with other game mechanics

Thanks for reading and sorry for my bad english.
Most importantly: Have fun playing

[Wizard1406]

I agree, the power in RP is degressive, you get the majority of your power within the first ~60 points (21 grim barricade, rest dread), get more defenses until ~100, after that you only get a bit of HP and minor bonuses from 3rd tree, unless you are physical/magic hybrid. And points take longer to farm the higher level you get.

It would be a good idea if PL gave most power in the first life, then less at 2, and least at 3. And PL should probably take less xp, until you get to the really high PL counts. Just like RP.

In the current system, new and casual players are very far behind and the power gap is huge.

[Hobgoblin51]

this is not to make fun of you


it is just to expand your knowledge as you admit you are a non native speaker


gab mean to talk

gap means distance between

[SoVeryBelgian]

I agree, the power in RP is degressive, you get the majority of your power within the first ~60 points (21 grim barricade, rest dread), get more defenses until ~100, after that you only get a bit of HP and minor bonuses from 3rd tree, unless you are physical/magic hybrid. And points take longer to farm the higher level you get.

It would be a good idea if PL gave most power in the first life, then less at 2, and least at 3. And PL should probably take less xp, until you get to the really high PL counts. Just like RP.

In the current system, new and casual players are very far behind and the power gap is huge.

Hmmm you know, there's a point to be had here...

There should also be SOME means for a new player to get a few PLs at a faster rate for joining up... or maybe an item that starts them automatically at 4 post reincarnate?

...



Also, because I can't resist... POWER GAB

[Oxarhamar]

I agree, the power in RP is degressive, you get the majority of your power within the first ~60 points (21 grim barricade, rest dread), get more defenses until ~100, after that you only get a bit of HP and minor bonuses from 3rd tree, unless you are physical/magic hybrid. And points take longer to farm the higher level you get.

It would be a good idea if PL gave most power in the first life, then less at 2, and least at 3. And PL should probably take less xp, until you get to the really high PL counts. Just like RP.

In the current system, new and casual players are very far behind and the power gap is huge.

It’s been brought up time & again

I don’t think front loading pl is a good idea

I think they nailed it with Racial Past lives putting power on the back

[Wizard1406]

It’s been brought up time & again

I don’t think front loading pl is a good idea

I think they nailed it with Racial Past lives putting power on the back

Why exactly?

Is it just better for the business model (2nd and 3rd past lives more relevant -> potentially more boxes and xp pots bought) or is it better for gameplay and player fun too (why?) ?


How is backloading racials great design?

With the changes to completionist I can't really recommend racials to people that are not power grinders. Unless maybe you want to main a spec that relies a lot of racial points.

The first racial gives basically nothing, the second only if you end up at an even stat after the racial bonus.

More character power for your time is iconic & class , eventually getting 1x of each class and 3x iconics and class of the most relevant for your main spec(s).
Plus EPLs and grinding RPs at cap (at least 2 epic lives per TR).

[Oxarhamar]

Why exactly?

Is it just better for the business model (2nd and 3rd past lives more relevant -> potentially more boxes and xp pots bought) or is it better for gameplay and player fun too (why?) ?


How is backloading racials great design?

With the changes to completionist I can't really recommend racials to people that are not power grinders. Unless maybe you want to main a spec that relies a lot of racial points.

The first racial gives basically nothing, the second only if you end up at an even stat after the racial bonus.

More character power for your time is iconic & class , eventually getting 1x of each class and 3x iconics and class of the most relevant for your main spec(s).
Plus EPLs and grinding RPs at cap (at least 2 epic lives per TR).

Both

Backloaded encourage players to play more

Front loading would encourage players to grab the big bonus and be done with it

I disagree that the first racial gives basically nothing skills can be useful & when combined with the other bonuses from multiple racial lives can add up to quite a bit


Iconic is a different matter which can unlock completionist now auto grant you don’t get action points and you can’t stack iconic with epic tr without releveling first & are locked in first level unless you use a heart

There’s multiple paths to gain power on character which order you choose is up to you

[Wizard1406]

Yeah I see that.... it's better for veteran players, who want to mostly play one character. If the last PLs are not good they might not want to do them (racial compl. is still a very good free feat though) on their main and have less to do. For everyone else, frontloaded PL would be better.

Iconics& class will become better, the more classes have an iconic. Caster iconics are lacking currently. Caster, esp. support, is good to play for newer players at cap. (melee worst, ranged is ok)

[Sqrlmonger]

Both

Backloaded encourage players to play more

Front loading would encourage players to grab the big bonus and be done with it

I disagree that the first racial gives basically nothing skills can be useful & when combined with the other bonuses from multiple racial lives can add up to quite a bit


Iconic is a different matter which can unlock completionist now auto grant you don’t get action points and you can’t stack iconic with epic tr without releveling first & are locked in first level unless you use a heart

There’s multiple paths to gain power on character which order you choose is up to you

This is just all wrong. It absolutely 100% should be front-loaded with racial AP, then stat, and finally skill. Because grabbing the skills and finishing the triple for all races gives you the racial completionist bonus.

Encouraging players to grab the big bonuses is exactly what you want to do. Once you get those first 14 lives in and you picked up all those racial AP you've learned how to run the hamster wheel and running another round for stat bumps isn't as big of a deal as it would be at the start.

And yes, the skills actually are basically useless. It's a +1 to a single skill for an entire past life run, it's truly awful and I loath them. The best one is is UMD from gnome, but even that is strictly inferior to the class PL feat you get from artificer where you get +1 UMD on top of +1 to ALL INT skills.

Front-loading gives people good reasons to go 2/3rds of the way and then you dangle the completionist feat to encourage the full clear.

All this current system does is tell people they shouldn't bother dipping their toe in. It tells them if they aren't willing to commit to the whole thing up front it's not really worth it. That is why it is FAR better to encourage people to dabble and try something they might not otherwise. Slowly diminishing the returns before giving them a final big reward.

It is a flat out a terrible design choice to back-load the rewards to this extreme.

[Alternative]

Backloaded encourage players to play more

No. Backloaded encourage players to not bother alltogether. I myself don't bother, I know people who quit over this. Racial pl design is the most toxic, grindy, and player unfriendly.

Time spent/reward for iconic + class past life in one go feels great, where in comparison racial life for 1 skill point (and no class pl with it) feels like a scam.

[Ereshkigal]

Both

Backloaded encourage players to play more

Front loading would encourage players to grab the big bonus and be done with it

I disagree that the first racial gives basically nothing skills can be useful & when combined with the other bonuses from multiple racial lives can add up to quite a bit


Iconic is a different matter which can unlock completionist now auto grant you don’t get action points and you can’t stack iconic with epic tr without releveling first & are locked in first level unless you use a heart

There’s multiple paths to gain power on character which order you choose is up to you

agreed that backloading is the right path.

[JOTMON]

Time investment = reward.
I don't see any value to front loading reward benchmarks and degrading the value of subsequent rewards.

Options to help newbies.. sure.. pay to win.
Temporary measures to help bridge the gap between new/flower sniffing players and the 10,000+hour grinders without annoying the long term players that have toiled to get where they are.

Implement options to buy or otherwise earn potions that give temporary buffs that mirror the permanent versions of long term grinding rewards.
Drop unbound potions in chests that give the same bonus type as past lives, useless to those that have the past lives, useful to those that don't.

Could even offer options to Purchase DDO store buff clickies that give timed duration equivalent buffs until they go and grind out the past lives.
and promo these clickies to new accounts/expansion packs, events...



This is a pretty basic template.. Good, Fast, or cheap.. pick 2.



If you dont invest the time, then it should be costly or not as good.

[Oxarhamar]

Time investment = reward.
I don't see any value to front loading reward benchmarks and degrading the value of subsequent rewards.

Options to help newbies.. sure.. pay to win.
Temporary measures to help bridge the gap between new/flower sniffing players and the 10,000+hour grinders without annoying the long term players that have toiled to get where they are.

Implement options to buy or otherwise earn potions that give temporary buffs that mirror the permanent versions of long term grinding rewards.
Drop unbound potions in chests that give the same bonus type as past lives, useless to those that have the past lives, useful to those that don't.

Could even offer options to Purchase DDO store buff clickies that give timed duration equivalent buffs until they go and grind out the past lives.
and promo these clickies to new accounts/expansion packs, events...



This is a pretty basic template.. Good, Fast, or cheap.. pick 2.



If you dont invest the time, then it should be costly or not as good.

+1

[Fisto_Mk_I]

Time investment = reward.
I don't see any value to front loading reward benchmarks and degrading the value of subsequent rewards.

It's simple really:

Front loaded - i take some low-hanging fruit, then, when i tired from repeating, i may be ( may be not) p2w for Otto's to fast complete all other PL for minor bonuses. Good for SSG, some possibility gain money from me.

Back-loaded - i see for those useless pile of junk skillz, then say "Nah, why bother with?!" and ignore this wheel at all. Bad for SSG, no any possibility gain money from me.

Options to help newbies.. sure.. pay to win.

See above - until here no good appealing bait with low-hanging fruit from front-loading, I (and many others) will not even consider the any possibility to p2w.

if Compltionist was still backloaded if not then players will most like get the big bonuses and forget the rest

It surely must be backloaded exactly with yours designated reasons.

[droid327]

This is a pretty basic template.. Good, Fast, or cheap.. pick 2.

Every business in the world would provide a product that's all 3 if they could, because that would be what people want to buy the most.

SSG isnt in the business of manufacturing characters. They're in the business of getting people to want to play.

That chart represents a natural limitation, not an optimal condition. SSG can absolutely provide an experience where progress is cheap, fast, and "good", aka strong. It costs them nothing more, and increases demand - aka makes more players want to play, which is the goal.

The dichotomy for game design isnt between cost and quality, its between short and long term sustainability. Front load things too much, people have a lot of fun growing their character quickly, but then burn through the content and then have "nothing left to do" and leave for other games. Back load it too much, and people can play for a long time, but get bored with the grind and lack of satisfying progress.

DDO is a somewhat unique case, though, because it has so much content, that you dont have to worry as much about running out of things to do. Its got so many quests to play, so many different builds and playstyles to explore...the game is definitely balanced too far in the "back load" direction right now. It can well afford to shift more progression to the front, and just rely on its sheer volume of content and replayability to keep players from burning out.

Just look at how few people really play maxed out alts - that's a largely untapped realm of replay, and a strong piece of evidence that progress is too arbitrarily slow. In a well balanced game, most players should have a stable of alts.

[slarden]

The Problem:
Power progression is a linear or rather progressive function.

I agree op

A good design would be heroic past lifes where alot of the power is front-loaded.

The worst design I've seen is the racial lifes where most of the power is back-loaded.

Reaper and epic past lifes are both front-loaded as well. The reaper benefits were probably a bit too high, but that is water under the bridge at this point and over time the % of power from reaper trees will diminish.

It's not just a new player issue, it also impact players that would like multiple alts on the same account. The only thing I really think they should change is reverse the tiers of the racial past lifes and make completionist 1x rather than 3x. Seems like a relatively simple fix to me.

[Bjond]

Reducing power gab

Don't people follow the rules? The first rule of power-club is ...

[Monkey_Archer]

Its my opinion that SSG overplays the "nickle and dime" approach and undervalues the "good will" approach.

So many people quit this game, or don't bother trying, or just do it the hard way. But enough pay to keep the lights on, so what do i know...

I would however, hazard a guess, that if SSG were to eliminate one grind for every new grind added, a lot more players would "see the light at the end of the tunnel" that they could grow their "paying playerbase", rather than just milk the whales.

[Tilomere]

This is my taky on introducing amechanics - hopefuly easy to implement mechanics - for reducing power gab between players in a fair way.

Your proposal doesn't reduce power gap between players. A first life new player and an uberpletionist will still have exactly the same gap they have now. Therefore I reject your request as reducing power gap and counter propose:

All past life and reaper point benefits are cut in half.

All tome effects are cut in half.

All fractional value when added up from all sources is discarded.

All set items lose their set bonuses.

Sentience slots now only unlock additional voice acting. Sentient filigree now instead override the base voice acting with another sentient source's voice acting.For example, Kobold filigree could be slotted into the "Treasure" and "Battle" voice acting sentient slots of a Dragon Jewel.

There, now the gap between players is actually reduced. None of this weak request to simply redraw the line with the requester on the other side.

[GamerTagRoid]

I have to agree with the OP. I've run dungeons on elite and R1 with my 28pt build characters and had very mixed results. From dying, and getting my soul stone picked up and not taken to a rez shrine until the END of the dungeon (so, no loot or fun for me), to getting separated from the group because I have base run speed and die, only for the rest of the group to finish the dungeon without ever coming back for me.

So, I stopped grouping. And now, I'm at a point where I'm trying to justify continuing to play because I'm bored soloing. To me (I'm old, I remember stepping into a zone in EQ and waiting for half an hour, chatting in OOC until a spot opened I could fill in a camp spot), these games are as much about the social aspect as they are about the game. No one talks. The groups I was in, almost no one ever said anything. Just in the dungeon, off they run before everyone is inside, and then it's dungeon complete and I'm barely at the half way point to catch up.

Frontloading, or maybe even providing a server that doesn't have ANY kind of TRing, I think would be a step towards making at least half of that go away. Add to it, the lackluster updates and problems with updates (I haven't even thought about getting IoD, no interest at all), and you've got a very bad recipe brewing.

Just my 2 cents.