Reducing power gap

[jirksa]

Hi, all!

This is my taky on introducing amechanics - hopefuly easy to implement mechanics - for reducing power gab between players in a fair way.

Motivation:

• New Players are discourage by the amount of grind it takes to be as good as other players
• Its not fun runing through dungeon at slower pace, than some completionist that as far ahead AND clearing all the mobs by himself
• Its hard to play together with new players, R1 is too hard for them, Hard is too easy for veteran players

Power gab reduction rules:

• If Player A is stronger than Player B before the reduction, it should stay that way after the reduction for every combinations of player
• If Veteran Player A took X hours of farming pastlives and gear, then after the reduction, it should take new players the same time to match player's A new power level.
• The time it takes to become uber completionist/reaper xpert/cover in raid gear/R10 solo player should stay the same -> so the reduction doesn't devaluate uber players' effort

CAN these rules be satisfied at the same time? YES!

The Problem:
Power progression is a linear or rather progressive function. This means that on average you are getting the same or rather greater increase in power level by every hour you play.
Pastlives - linear bonuses. You play 1 pally life = 10 heal amp, second another 10 heal amp. But the time dependency is progressive since it takes you less and less time to farm these PLs
Completionists - totaly progressive. You are not getting it until you invest a lot into this game
OP gear - totaly progressive. Most OP gear have set bonuses, which means the true power unlocks when all the pieces are farmed.
Reaper gear - totaly progressive. 10 reaper shards? nothing. 50 reaper shards? nothing 75 reaper shards? Boom - here is +2 reaper bonus to all stats
sentient jewels - degresive. You need to feed more and more for the next filigree slot. Thats what we want!
and so on ...

The Solution:
Make all these stuff degresive. That means that you will get the biggest increase/ the biggest bonus the first time you achieve something. Repeatedly achieving the same or similar thing will yield diminishing returns. How this can work?:

• Past lifes - 1st Pally PL = 15 heal amp, 2nd PL = 10 heal amp, 3rd = 5 heal amp. As you can see it will give bigger bonuses to new players, but uber completionist will have the same bonuses. Also it will take the same time to become Uber completionist.
• Gear - This is a tough one. Maybe give slightly more raid runes to occasional players? When you play a raid 2 times a week, you will get exactrly the same number of runes as now. If it is more then a week since your last raid run, maybe give 30% more? If this is your first time raiding, maybe 200% more runes? Exact numbers have to be calculated to be fair to everyone, but you get my point - casual players will have more chance getting raid gear, but will still have less runes than some raid maniacs.
• Reaper crafting - maybe lower the cost of reaper crafting BUT make reaper items exclusive to equip? And if you want another reaper item you need to upgrade both items with some additional reaper shards, so they can be simultainiously equiped? If you want 3 items - upgrade all 3. So by apllying reaper bonus to an item for lets say 30 reaper shards, the item will have set bonus of: this shall be your only reaper item, you can then upgrade this item to set bonus - You can have 2 items now? Exact numbers have to be again calculated, so it will not increase the overall cost compared to uber players with 12 pieces of reaper gear.
• and so on with other game mechanics

Thanks for reading and sorry for my bad english.
Most importantly: Have fun playing

[Wizard1406]

I agree, the power in RP is degressive, you get the majority of your power within the first ~60 points (21 grim barricade, rest dread), get more defenses until ~100, after that you only get a bit of HP and minor bonuses from 3rd tree, unless you are physical/magic hybrid. And points take longer to farm the higher level you get.

It would be a good idea if PL gave most power in the first life, then less at 2, and least at 3. And PL should probably take less xp, until you get to the really high PL counts. Just like RP.

In the current system, new and casual players are very far behind and the power gap is huge.

[Hobgoblin51]

this is not to make fun of you


it is just to expand your knowledge as you admit you are a non native speaker


gab mean to talk

gap means distance between

[SoVeryBelgian]

I agree, the power in RP is degressive, you get the majority of your power within the first ~60 points (21 grim barricade, rest dread), get more defenses until ~100, after that you only get a bit of HP and minor bonuses from 3rd tree, unless you are physical/magic hybrid. And points take longer to farm the higher level you get.

It would be a good idea if PL gave most power in the first life, then less at 2, and least at 3. And PL should probably take less xp, until you get to the really high PL counts. Just like RP.

In the current system, new and casual players are very far behind and the power gap is huge.

Hmmm you know, there's a point to be had here...

There should also be SOME means for a new player to get a few PLs at a faster rate for joining up... or maybe an item that starts them automatically at 4 post reincarnate?

...



Also, because I can't resist... POWER GAB

[Oxarhamar]

I agree, the power in RP is degressive, you get the majority of your power within the first ~60 points (21 grim barricade, rest dread), get more defenses until ~100, after that you only get a bit of HP and minor bonuses from 3rd tree, unless you are physical/magic hybrid. And points take longer to farm the higher level you get.

It would be a good idea if PL gave most power in the first life, then less at 2, and least at 3. And PL should probably take less xp, until you get to the really high PL counts. Just like RP.

In the current system, new and casual players are very far behind and the power gap is huge.

It’s been brought up time & again

I don’t think front loading pl is a good idea

I think they nailed it with Racial Past lives putting power on the back

[Wizard1406]

It’s been brought up time & again

I don’t think front loading pl is a good idea

I think they nailed it with Racial Past lives putting power on the back

Why exactly?

Is it just better for the business model (2nd and 3rd past lives more relevant -> potentially more boxes and xp pots bought) or is it better for gameplay and player fun too (why?) ?


How is backloading racials great design?

With the changes to completionist I can't really recommend racials to people that are not power grinders. Unless maybe you want to main a spec that relies a lot of racial points.

The first racial gives basically nothing, the second only if you end up at an even stat after the racial bonus.

More character power for your time is iconic & class , eventually getting 1x of each class and 3x iconics and class of the most relevant for your main spec(s).
Plus EPLs and grinding RPs at cap (at least 2 epic lives per TR).

[Oxarhamar]

Why exactly?

Is it just better for the business model (2nd and 3rd past lives more relevant -> potentially more boxes and xp pots bought) or is it better for gameplay and player fun too (why?) ?


How is backloading racials great design?

With the changes to completionist I can't really recommend racials to people that are not power grinders. Unless maybe you want to main a spec that relies a lot of racial points.

The first racial gives basically nothing, the second only if you end up at an even stat after the racial bonus.

More character power for your time is iconic & class , eventually getting 1x of each class and 3x iconics and class of the most relevant for your main spec(s).
Plus EPLs and grinding RPs at cap (at least 2 epic lives per TR).

Both

Backloaded encourage players to play more

Front loading would encourage players to grab the big bonus and be done with it

I disagree that the first racial gives basically nothing skills can be useful & when combined with the other bonuses from multiple racial lives can add up to quite a bit


Iconic is a different matter which can unlock completionist now auto grant you don’t get action points and you can’t stack iconic with epic tr without releveling first & are locked in first level unless you use a heart

There’s multiple paths to gain power on character which order you choose is up to you

[Wizard1406]

Yeah I see that.... it's better for veteran players, who want to mostly play one character. If the last PLs are not good they might not want to do them (racial compl. is still a very good free feat though) on their main and have less to do. For everyone else, frontloaded PL would be better.

Iconics& class will become better, the more classes have an iconic. Caster iconics are lacking currently. Caster, esp. support, is good to play for newer players at cap. (melee worst, ranged is ok)

[Oxarhamar]

Yeah I see that.... it's better for veteran players, who want to mostly play one character. If the last PLs are not good they might not want to do them (racial compl. is still a very good free feat though) on their main and have less to do. For everyone else, frontloaded PL would be better.

Iconics& class will become better, the more classes have an iconic. Caster iconics are lacking currently. Caster, esp. support, is good to play for newer players at cap. (melee worst, ranged is ok)

PL are not required for any difficulty level it’s entirely optional

If players want to play alts nothing is stopping them

PL is a way to extend gameplay and gives players something to do other than sitting at cap farming items frontloading defeats the purpose of extending play

[Sqrlmonger]

Both

Backloaded encourage players to play more

Front loading would encourage players to grab the big bonus and be done with it

I disagree that the first racial gives basically nothing skills can be useful & when combined with the other bonuses from multiple racial lives can add up to quite a bit


Iconic is a different matter which can unlock completionist now auto grant you don’t get action points and you can’t stack iconic with epic tr without releveling first & are locked in first level unless you use a heart

There’s multiple paths to gain power on character which order you choose is up to you

This is just all wrong. It absolutely 100% should be front-loaded with racial AP, then stat, and finally skill. Because grabbing the skills and finishing the triple for all races gives you the racial completionist bonus.

Encouraging players to grab the big bonuses is exactly what you want to do. Once you get those first 14 lives in and you picked up all those racial AP you've learned how to run the hamster wheel and running another round for stat bumps isn't as big of a deal as it would be at the start.

And yes, the skills actually are basically useless. It's a +1 to a single skill for an entire past life run, it's truly awful and I loath them. The best one is is UMD from gnome, but even that is strictly inferior to the class PL feat you get from artificer where you get +1 UMD on top of +1 to ALL INT skills.

Front-loading gives people good reasons to go 2/3rds of the way and then you dangle the completionist feat to encourage the full clear.

All this current system does is tell people they shouldn't bother dipping their toe in. It tells them if they aren't willing to commit to the whole thing up front it's not really worth it. That is why it is FAR better to encourage people to dabble and try something they might not otherwise. Slowly diminishing the returns before giving them a final big reward.

It is a flat out a terrible design choice to back-load the rewards to this extreme.

[rabidfox]

I do r4's on a 1st lifer on HC at cap with gear that was farmed out in about a week's time. Knowledge of the game (quests, builds, what gear you'll want, etc.) is the biggest gap anyone faces. All the past lives are fun to have and give someone stuff to do long term, but you so don't need them to do stuff in the game (unless you're trying to push raids and that's tiny tiny tiny little percent of the player base that does that, but without game knowledge that's a wall that past lives & gear just won't get you over). I'm all for catch up mechanics for those who'd like past lives quickly, but don't assume it's a magic gap closer. All the knowledge of the game one picks up doing life after life is where you'll really close the gap.

PL are not required for any difficulty level it’s entirely optional
If players want to play alts nothing is stopping them
PL is a way to extend gameplay and gives players something to do other than sitting at cap farming items frontloading defeats the purpose of extending play

^ so much this.

[Oxarhamar]

This is just all wrong. It absolutely 100% should be front-loaded with racial AP, then stat, and finally skill. Because grabbing the skills and finishing the triple for all races gives you the racial completionist bonus.

Encouraging players to grab the big bonuses is exactly what you want to do. Once you get those first 14 lives in and you picked up all those racial AP you've learned how to run the hamster wheel and running another round for stat bumps isn't as big of a deal as it would be at the start.

And yes, the skills actually are basically useless. It's a +1 to a single skill for an entire past life run, it's truly awful and I loath them. The best one is is UMD from gnome, but even that is strictly inferior to the class PL feat you get from artificer where you get +1 UMD on top of +1 to ALL INT skills.

Front-loading gives people good reasons to go 2/3rds of the way and then you dangle the completionist feat to encourage the full clear.

All this current system does is tell people they shouldn't bother dipping their toe in. It tells them if they aren't willing to commit to the whole thing up front it's not really worth it. That is why it is FAR better to encourage people to dabble and try something they might not otherwise. Slowly diminishing the returns before giving them a final big reward.

It is a flat out a terrible design choice to back-load the rewards to this extreme.

I still disagree about the skills being useless

if Racial Completionist was still backloaded at 3× all the order could be swapped However most calls for front loading I've seen want Completionist & the action points up front

[neain2008]

I do r4's on a 1st lifer on HC at cap with gear that was farmed out in about a week's time. Knowledge of the game (quests, builds, what gear you'll want, etc.) is the biggest gap anyone faces. All the past lives are fun to have and give someone stuff to do long term, but you so don't need them to do stuff in the game (unless you're trying to push raids and that's tiny tiny tiny little percent of the player base that does that, but without game knowledge that's a wall that past lives & gear just won't get you over). I'm all for catch up mechanics for those who'd like past lives quickly, but don't assume it's a magic gap closer. All the knowledge of the game one picks up doing life after life is where you'll really close the gap.



^ so much this.

Yes, you can do this. I can do this. A new player 'Can' do this. but they look around them and see all the people with a bunch of past lives and feel that its the past lives giving them the boost. if you frontload stuff, you might get those new people to do a full run of class completionist and then stop tring class, which is fine. The fact that they did all the class ones means that they were in-game for months at the minimum and possibly years. and at that point they are far more invested and FAR more likely to stay.

edit: And since they are more likely to be doing TRs and getting those bonuses, they will ALSO be learning the game.

[Oxarhamar]

Yes, you can do this. I can do this. A new player 'Can' do this. but they look around them and see all the people with a bunch of past lives and feel that its the past lives giving them the boost. if you frontload stuff, you might get those new people to do a full run of class completionist and then stop tring class, which is fine. The fact that they did all the class ones means that they were in-game for months at the minimum and possibly years. and at that point they are far more invested and FAR more likely to stay.

I can’t speak for new players but when I was new Completionist was my goal pretty much as soon as I learned about it TR before that first time I asked another player about the wings on their name

Just me but it’s one of my favorite bits of the game the past life replay-ability vs. the max level gear grind of other MMOs

[Sqrlmonger]

I still disagree about the skills being useless

if Racial Completionist was still backloaded at 3× all the order could be swapped However most calls for front loading I've seen want Completionist & the action points up front

Strictly speaking "useless" is probably not the right word.

It's more accurate to say it is a substantially substandard reward.

Useless in this case is shorthand for it has extremely low practical value to any build and is not worth the effort of a complete past life when compared with other past life rewards.

[slarden]

The Problem:
Power progression is a linear or rather progressive function.

I agree op

A good design would be heroic past lifes where alot of the power is front-loaded.

The worst design I've seen is the racial lifes where most of the power is back-loaded.

Reaper and epic past lifes are both front-loaded as well. The reaper benefits were probably a bit too high, but that is water under the bridge at this point and over time the % of power from reaper trees will diminish.

It's not just a new player issue, it also impact players that would like multiple alts on the same account. The only thing I really think they should change is reverse the tiers of the racial past lifes and make completionist 1x rather than 3x. Seems like a relatively simple fix to me.

[Oxarhamar]

Strictly speaking "useless" is probably not the right word.

It's more accurate to say it is a substantially substandard reward.

Useless in this case is shorthand for it has extremely low practical value to any build and is not worth the effort of a complete past life when compared with other past life rewards.

Usefulness will vary depending on build and playstyle for sure

The 1 umd was mentioned & that can be a big difference in earlier levels

If it's not worth the effort which I dont completely agree then putting that on the end makes those lives ignore-able

[Alternative]

Backloaded encourage players to play more

No. Backloaded encourage players to not bother alltogether. I myself don't bother, I know people who quit over this. Racial pl design is the most toxic, grindy, and player unfriendly.

Time spent/reward for iconic + class past life in one go feels great, where in comparison racial life for 1 skill point (and no class pl with it) feels like a scam.

[Sqrlmonger]

If it's not worth the effort which I dont completely agree then putting that on the end makes those lives ignore-able

I mean saying they're 'ignor-able' (taken as an individual reward at least) is sort of the same as saying they are "useless" as I defined in my last comment. So I guess I'll take that as agreement.

To the broader point of the design though, they're only truly ignore'able if you're willing to ignore +2 to all stats and +2 to all skills from racial completionist. Which certainly some people are and some aren't.

Regardless, a good design would bring you in with a tasty carrot and then diminish the returns with each life in the same race. If you were down to only 3rd lives left and they only offered skills, you would do it because you wanna go for the ultimate reward and not for the meager +1 bumps to a single skill. Consider that the last 14 racial past lives (assuming you left all 3rd lives to last) give a combined total of +14 to skills, the completionist feat alone weighs in at a combined total of +12 to stats and +42 to skills. Just the completionist feat alone is sufficient backloading. Racial AP as 3rd life benefit constitutes a complete backloading overkill.

As it sits right now, you have to suffer through the 1st life of each race knowing that it's (as discussed above) more or less a prerequisite to get to the worthwhile benefits. So if some people are willing to do it then it's fine right? Well no, not really. Lots of people simply never start because the prospect of trudging through a life for negligible benefit is unappealing. Thus, the question is one of, as usual, player retention. And this structure is terrible at enticing players to start the TR hamster wheel. And lots of players who refuse to start the TR train will inevitably grow bored of sitting at cap and find other games to occupy their time.

[mikarddo]

Imho, at much easier solution:

First 10 lives use the "1st life xp table".
Next 10 lives use the "2nd life xp table"
From 21th life use the "3rd life xp table"

Add the same lower xp benefit to epic lives and we have something real.

Much easier than redesigning the rewards and most definitely help new players catch up faster.