Should there be a code of conduct for streamers directly supported by SSG?

[Culver.Civello]

I wasn't gonna bother with this thread because it really is sad that people refuse to appreciate the amount of game promotion and care that is put into streaming. I say this as a former promotions person for Turbine the fact that this game still garners interest is because people take the time to show case and talk to folks while playing ddo. I know some on here do not understand this and that is fine, but to act like streaming the content does not have a positive benefit is weird. Another thing to accuse someone of bullying because they read your public post when you clearly called them out by name is an unfair way to try to paint yourself as a victim of something. You are not being bullied if you say this person is ruining the game because they made a career off doing something you don't like. And the person who was called out was very polite in reading the mean things said about them and asked viewers not to even get involved but my old behind is not gonna let you all act like you didn't make threads accusing the streamer of things they couldn't possibly have done. I don't like actual bullies and threads like this where you know you are attacking folks just having fun and helping the game via visual content then making a literal thread calling them out by name. But oh no don't dare have them read the call out then you are the victim...no flipping way.

Also I have asked several times for some form of Twitch tie in but apparently was informed that the API would not allow such things. So at best all we can do for the game is give them as much promotion as our channels/social media will allow. All in all this is indie work for little thanks and now we can add salty forum people upset at the game taking pot shots at what we do to the mix. I have to remind myself constantly that DDO is a nicer community than the forums showcases its why so many of us have over fifteen years of play time. But the amount of toxic attacks on anything you all don't understand is troublesome.

Seriously stop calling out streamers then acting like you have done nothing wrong. And also streamers do not impact or influence nerfs or game development changes. The fact that I have to tell grown people this is ridiculous. The only people who get to call the shots in gaming development are the actual developers of the game. Trust me I have an ego the size of Texas and I have never once believed anything I remotely suggest make it into the game. So to accuse any one streamer of such is silly. I just can't understand the level of unnecessary nasty attitudes you all give to people keeping interest in our game alive. But once again got to remind myself the toxic of this board is not indicative of the general community.

^ This.

[slarden]

What streamers have been harassing community members?

I am not allowed to say these type of things on the forums, and even if I was I wouldn't because my goal is to talk about the issue and not specific people. We all make mistakes and I don't wish to call out streamers that likely aren't doing this intentionally.

I listed a few examples I witnessed in the original post, but do not necessarily think the streamer had malicious intent even though I thought what they were doing was wrong and should not be supported by SSG. A code of conduct could help SSG-supported streamers understand the boundaries.

[OfElectricMen]

Free speech

Almost certainly does not apply.

[Dukowski_]

Oh my god!
Somebody call the cyberpolice!

[superevbully]

I wasn't gonna bother with this thread because it really is sad that people refuse to appreciate the amount of game promotion and care that is put into streaming. I say this as a former promotions person for Turbine the fact that this game still garners interest is because people take the time to show case and talk to folks while playing ddo. I know some on here do not understand this and that is fine, but to act like streaming the content does not have a positive benefit is weird. Another thing to accuse someone of bullying because they read your public post when you clearly called them out by name is an unfair way to try to paint yourself as a victim of something. You are not being bullied if you say this person is ruining the game because they made a career off doing something you don't like. And the person who was called out was very polite in reading the mean things said about them and asked viewers not to even get involved but my old behind is not gonna let you all act like you didn't make threads accusing the streamer of things they couldn't possibly have done. I don't like actual bullies and threads like this where you know you are attacking folks just having fun and helping the game via visual content then making a literal thread calling them out by name. But oh no don't dare have them read the call out then you are the victim...no flipping way.

Also I have asked several times for some form of Twitch tie in but apparently was informed that the API would not allow such things. So at best all we can do for the game is give them as much promotion as our channels/social media will allow. All in all this is indie work for little thanks and now we can add salty forum people upset at the game taking pot shots at what we do to the mix. I have to remind myself constantly that DDO is a nicer community than the forums showcases its why so many of us have over fifteen years of play time. But the amount of toxic attacks on anything you all don't understand is troublesome.

Seriously stop calling out streamers then acting like you have done nothing wrong. And also streamers do not impact or influence nerfs or game development changes. The fact that I have to tell grown people this is ridiculous. The only people who get to call the shots in gaming development are the actual developers of the game. Trust me I have an ego the size of Texas and I have never once believed anything I remotely suggest make it into the game. So to accuse any one streamer of such is silly. I just can't understand the level of unnecessary nasty attitudes you all give to people keeping interest in our game alive. But once again got to remind myself the toxic of this board is not indicative of the general community.

Was reading and seeing the other side of the coin until u try to convince us that streamers have no impact or influence ...he was literally saying the opposite ....your post id tldr cuz its trash

[droid327]

A code of conduct isnt about protecting the company, its about protecting streamers. When you enumerate what you cant do, then you're basically saying "anything else is OK"

SSG doesnt owe streamers anything. This is not a democracy, there is no due process. They can just be arbitrary autocrats. If a streamer is doing something they dont like, they can just yank their support. Its up to streamers to just not be a-holes and do anything objectionable....not for SSG to have to define what objectionable means.

[dogsoldier]

A streamer, regardless of actual skills, has the potential for massive grieving if he weaponizes his followers each time his feelings get hurt. I would expect them to behave professionally with that level of influence, especially if for example they are financially supported by SSG.

[thwart]

A code of conduct isnt about protecting the company, its about protecting streamers. When you enumerate what you cant do, then you're basically saying "anything else is OK"

SSG doesnt owe streamers anything. This is not a democracy, there is no due process. They can just be arbitrary autocrats. If a streamer is doing something they dont like, they can just yank their support. Its up to streamers to just not be a-holes and do anything objectionable....not for SSG to have to define what objectionable means.

Totally agree. If SSG doesn't yank their support then it seems to me that they endorse the conduct.

[superevbully]

Totally agree. If SSG doesn't yank their support then it seems to me that they endorse the conduct.

totally agree ty ...............they certianly yanked the thread last night lololololololololololol

[Culver.Civello]

A streamer, regardless of actual skills, has the potential for massive grieving if he weaponizes his followers each time his feelings get hurt. I would expect them to behave professionally with that level of influence, especially if for example they are financially supported by SSG.

You know, most games I might agree with you... but in a game where a large majority of the player base is 30+ years old and are considered grown adults, you'd think they'd be able to take responsibilities for their own actions. And if a streamer was legitimately trying to push for this behavior, I'd agree... but that's not what has happened, and if you say it is... you didn't actually watch.

And frankly, SSG I'm sure are more than capable to deciding whether a community member fits their brand or not. At the end of the day, when you watch community based stuff... even ones supported by the company, they do not speak for the company and should not be viewed in that light. Do I think that people should just not be jerks...? sure.. absolutely.

[jskinner937]

I wasn't gonna bother with this thread because it really is sad that people refuse to appreciate the amount of game promotion and care that is put into streaming. I say this as a former promotions person for Turbine the fact that this game still garners interest is because people take the time to show case and talk to folks while playing ddo. I know some on here do not understand this and that is fine, but to act like streaming the content does not have a positive benefit is weird. Another thing to accuse someone of bullying because they read your public post when you clearly called them out by name is an unfair way to try to paint yourself as a victim of something. You are not being bullied if you say this person is ruining the game because they made a career off doing something you don't like. And the person who was called out was very polite in reading the mean things said about them and asked viewers not to even get involved but my old behind is not gonna let you all act like you didn't make threads accusing the streamer of things they couldn't possibly have done. I don't like actual bullies and threads like this where you know you are attacking folks just having fun and helping the game via visual content then making a literal thread calling them out by name. But oh no don't dare have them read the call out then you are the victim...no flipping way.

Also I have asked several times for some form of Twitch tie in but apparently was informed that the API would not allow such things. So at best all we can do for the game is give them as much promotion as our channels/social media will allow. All in all this is indie work for little thanks and now we can add salty forum people upset at the game taking pot shots at what we do to the mix. I have to remind myself constantly that DDO is a nicer community than the forums showcases its why so many of us have over fifteen years of play time. But the amount of toxic attacks on anything you all don't understand is troublesome.

Seriously stop calling out streamers then acting like you have done nothing wrong. And also streamers do not impact or influence nerfs or game development changes. The fact that I have to tell grown people this is ridiculous. The only people who get to call the shots in gaming development are the actual developers of the game. Trust me I have an ego the size of Texas and I have never once believed anything I remotely suggest make it into the game. So to accuse any one streamer of such is silly. I just can't understand the level of unnecessary nasty attitudes you all give to people keeping interest in our game alive. But once again got to remind myself the toxic of this board is not indicative of the general community.

While I agree with your logic there are some issues with how it applies to this OP:

1.) Nobody is belittling the efforts of any streamer. The question is should there be a code of conduct for supporting streamers? Many feel that singling out players/posters could have a negative impact or lead to bullying from others beside the streamer, no matter the politeness or intention of the streamer. Even in forum posts, most often a player's name would be redacted to avoid this. That is the point of the post, not to discourage streamers or their positive efforts.

2.) No accusations were made and Slarden made a point to not single out anyone, but to bring light to a possible issue. As a matter of fact, this is an example of how streamers should handle things themselves in situations like this. This is the proper way to bring attention to something and not single out anyone or group of people that couold result in possible negative behavior.

3.) Streamers/Influences do have impact on game development. Maybe not directly, but indirectly. I know for a fact that many nerfs are a direct result of what has been streamed, rather than what the devs actually experience themselves. Most gaming companies use streamers to not only promote new players, but for community feedback. Large MMOs need to focus feedback to a more narrow group since they cannot hear every voice. DDO is a small community, so this type of narrowing of focused feedback really is not productive and can lead to more dissent from the masses. DDO does not need further divide in its population, it needs everyone still playing to survive. If a streamer truly wants to help, they should promote this, not discourage.

[Caarb]

In general no. Streamers should be free to give their opinion on anything in the public domain including directly criticising SSG themselves.

[jskinner937]

You know, most games I might agree with you... but in a game where a large majority of the player base is 30+ years old and are considered grown adults, you'd think they'd be able to take responsibilities for their own actions. And if a streamer was legitimately trying to push for this behavior, I'd agree... but that's not what has happened, and if you say it is... you didn't actually watch.

And frankly, SSG I'm sure are more than capable to deciding whether a community member fits their brand or not. At the end of the day, when you watch community based stuff... even ones supported by the company, they do not speak for the company and should not be viewed in that light. Do I think that people should just not be jerks...? sure.. absolutely.

Not trying to draw specifics out here, but what do you suppose the point of showing that particular post was? Regardless of what was said by the streamer, the fact that it was shown and discussed, I cannot think of any productive reason to do that. I honestly believe there was no malicious intent, but that was a lapse in judgement at the very least. The only possible outcome for bringing attention to the post on a live stream is negative. There is a report function on the forums that is anonymous for a reason. That was a violation of the ToS of the forums at the very least.

We do not permit "Naming and Shaming". Publicly accusing someone of misbehavior, whether true or not, is not allowed. We do not conduct trials in the court of public opinion, nor do we want to create a situation where players are forced to defend themselves publicly against untrue, misleading, or only partially accurate allegations.

No Doxxing: Posting someone's account information, email address, or other personally-identifying information is a serious offense, and will not be tolerated.

[slarden]

This thread is not about any specific streamers and I have rotated by prime sub around to maybe 15 streamers including all the biggest ones. So I support streaming. I have even supported streamers after witnessing a few things I didn't like because I didn't think there was malicious intent - and hey people are human and make mistakes.

Also, this isn't about me or anything directed at me. The issue was raised by someone else recently- as far as I know my name wasn't even mentioned on the stream that was being discussed. Since I had witnessed a few of those things myself it seemed like a good topic for the community.

I felt the issue was a good one to discuss as long as we stick to the specific topic and it doesn't devolve into attacking streamers and players.

Also, I NEVER created a thread attacking streamers. Never. If you have an example where you think I was rude please pm and I will rephrase it or delete it. I am not a perfect person and sometimes do respond in kind when I've been directly attacked on the forums, but I do my best to be a good community member.

[Cordovan]

It sounds like there is a specific incident that triggered this and the other thread, which was closed due to personal attack. Remember we don't permit naming and shaming on the forums, as we do not conduct public trials here. Anyone leveling an accusation by name against someone will face consequences regardless of their perceived "rightness" in calling someone out. Take it elsewhere.

The words being used "directly supported" is a strange one; there are no streamers receiving direct compensation from us. We give out codes fairly regularly to streamers in addition to other content creators, and if you are consistently one of the top streamers on Twitch and YouTube you are indeed likely to get some free content codes from us. That said, this is an informal rather than formal process, and if I see a streamer acting terribly or violating the rules, or if through player complaints they clearly aren't acting appropriately, they simply aren't going to get anything from us in terms of time or attention. We don't police the content of streamers, that would be untenable, but yes, if something particularly inappropriate happens we want to know about it.

Our rules are not so different that they aren't basically the same as Twitch's and anyplace else; so if you feel someone is violating our Code of Conduct the odds are good they are violating the similar rules of whatever platform they are on, so consider reporting them through the proper channels.

[Culver.Civello]

I am not going to respond to any toxic posts directly. Feel free to create your own post on those topics, but please don't derail this one.

This thread is not about any specific streamers and I have rotated by prime sub around to maybe 15 streamers including all the biggest ones. So I support streaming. I have even supported streamers after witnessing a few things I didn't like because I didn't think there was malicious intent - and hey people are human and make mistakes.

Also, this isn't about me or anything directed at me. The issue was raised by someone else recently- as far as I know my name wasn't even mentioned on the stream that was being discussed. Since I had witnessed a few of those things myself it seemed like a good topic for the community.

I felt the issue was a good one to discuss as long as we stick to the specific topic and it doesn't devolve into attacking streamers and players.

Also, I NEVER created a thread attacking streamers. Never.

Honestly, I'm not knocking the conversation... because although the conversation is a good one to have, now probably isn't he best time for it. Cause... it's just bound to devolve into the exact opposite of what you're attempting to do, due to recent events. Just bad timing imo

[GramercyRiff]

It's not like asmongold is streaming ddo. I'm sure the very low viewer count streams have some effect, but it's a very small one at best. It's very obvious if you play the game that the population is very low. So streaming isn't doing much for DDO. The only problem I have with streamer trashing forum posts is that they themselves whine about all kinds of things regarding this game.

[Deathromancer]

I think SSG should not support and even block forum access to streamers who target ppl in game or on the forums, that said I don't see that happening as SSG likes the free publicity that streamers give them as some people do inappropriate or border line behavior, just to be controversial and draw more viewers so even bad PR gets ppl watching them.

That said SSG should distance themselves from streamers that do this, not reward them in any way, if they can not meet SSGs standards of what's considered good social behavior.

I watched a lot of streaming yesterday and some of it was so negative I had to stop. It made me want to find a new game to play. I'm sure there are good streamers out there that don't target ppl but there needs to be a system to deal with those that don't use good judgement when they twitch stream and show DDO forums and target ppl.

[KoobTheProud]

If they are directly supported by the company, they should be subject to the same restrictions on behavior and speech as the employees of the company.

It's not a matter of free speech (which doesn't apply to most of what a bunch of you think it does). It's a matter of company rules, and what's best for business.

If they are subject to the same restrictions on behavior and speech that employees are we will only hear what the company wants us to hear.

Is that what you are advocating for?

[jskinner937]

Also, interestingly enough, the tab above marked community rules does not work. I had to google ddo community rules to find the right link. If we are expected to know and follow them, maybe the tab should actually direct to the correct page. Just saying :P.