Should there be a code of conduct for streamers directly supported by SSG?

[dogsoldier]

If you're going to call out a streamer/s supported by SSG, then you will need proof, not hearsay.

I could give every detail required for everyone to understand that this is a serious concern. There is not enough popcorn in eberron to support that post though. And the thread would be nuked within 5 minutes anyway.

[slarden]

I don't care either way, but by this line right here, you are inviting people to basically lie and jump on the pitchfork wagon. I could easily say I heard a streamer say "insert derogatory name", whether it's true or not.

If you're going to call out a streamer/s supported by SSG, then you will need proof, not hearsay.

I am not calling out anyone out and have tried to make that very clear.

As for hearsay - nobody is going to listen to hearsay.

Content is either live or recorded so there is little chance of false accusations. Sure streamers can and do edit out things before they post their content, but viewers can also record things if they aren't doing so for profit in my state and likely most if not all states. So I agree, proof positive is important and not hearsay. I don't think there would be any sort of witch hunt with a simple and short code of conduct, but streamers receiving support from SSG would be accountable if they violate those rules. Just as players in the game are accountable and forum posters are accountable. I am not asking for any sort of extreme restrictive rules - see my examples in the original post and if you think it's ok for a streamer to do that feel free to say so, but it's not allowed in game and not allowed on the forums.

As Cordovan said, to the extent people are insulting or bringing negative attention to community members or otherwise violating rules - we can send recorded videos directly to SSG - so no hearsay is needed. While there may not be a formal code of conduct, there is an informal "don't be a butthead" philosophy and SSG does say they want to know about it. So what I am asking for in a poll is already exists informally and this approach is much better than people slamming streamers on the forums.

That said, this is an informal rather than formal process, and if I see a streamer acting terribly or violating the rules, or if through player complaints they clearly aren't acting appropriately, they simply aren't going to get anything from us in terms of time or attention. We don't police the content of streamers, that would be untenable, but yes, if something particularly inappropriate happens we want to know about it.

It's disappointing that anyone would think it's ok for a streamer to do this and not be held accountable. I am glad SSG doesn't agree and there is a process to report the behavior:

Examples I've witnessed by streamers supported by SSG:
1) Streamer calling out a pug player in their party for being terrible when the name is directly visible to viewers
2) Streamer calling out specific forum posts on their stream

I don't think there is anything wrong with reading forum posts on a stream - or even saying they agree or disagree (you can do that on the forums). I honestly don't undestand why people would want to watch that, but hey different tastes for different people. However, if something is said that would be a violation on the forums or in-game - record and report it. Very simple.

[dogsoldier]

If you entirely ignore the contents of the thread that was pulled, perhaps because it was escalating. I did not see anything too objectionable in there, but people were attacking one another; I could see how SSG could perceive that it might be headed in that direction, set that aside, ignore all of that. Wait for the DDO / West Side Story Mashup Movie to come out.

You can also safely ignore the stream in it's entirety other than take note that it was deemed important enough for the viewers to get a response to what was posted.

There IS cause for concern related to the reason that was posted to begin with. I am not going to state what that is, you can go look into that yourself.

There IS confirmation that the concern is valid due to the fact that it was viewed as necessary to do so in the middle of a stream. I am not going to state what that is, you can go look into that yourself.

Edit: Also, the concern pertains not only to that topic in the post and stream, but also Several Other Update 56 decisions that were made as well.

[KoobTheProud]

I recently started watching Asmon. I didn't know who he was or his popularity. I find his content fun to watch although the heavy WoW emphasis leaves me lost sometimes because I've never played the game. Watching the Sliker thing go down live was interesting and he's a good interviewer.
Not sure he'd ever waste his time with DDO. He has played obscure jumping/evading games that I am positive have more players than DDO and his viewers seem to like watching him get frustrated playing.

Looking forward to BG3 and some other MMO's on the horizon.

This recent epic failure by SSG will cut my expenditures here significantly.

Asmongold is where he is because he was close to first on streaming a very popular game more than a decade ago.

It's a Founder's Effect in play.

Not saying he doesn't deserve it but very few people have had the opportunities placed in front of them that he did.

[Daerius of the Blessed Blades]

Examples I've witnessed by streamers supported by SSG:
(...)
2) Streamer calling out specific forum posts on their stream?

So are you saying that a streamer reading or commenting on a public forum post, where said posts are already visible and open to comment, is somehow a problem? Is this different than me retweeting a post that I found interesting, ludicrous, or obnoxious on Twitter? Or on another game forum? Or link it to my guildies on Discord?

It would seem that once a poster responds publicly, it's already, well... public?

(BTW, if a streamer wants to read this post and say 'that Daerius cat really doesn't get it...', I'll be ok. It's called discourse and an opinion. It's kinda the purpose of a public forum, whether in print or streaming, don't ya think?)

[dogsoldier]

Slarden is doing none of that. He started a discourse, about a potential for a concern between the interaction between and/or the influence with players and / or SSG and popular streamers. He is not citing a specific scenario, just starting a conversation.

[Coffey]

I think this a worth while discussion slarden.

DDO streamers are helping promote DDO which in turn brings more potential players. SSG is not their momma though. And
while the gifts are probably appreciated by Streamers it wouldnt stop me from my right to free speech.

I dont always agree with the things that are said during the streams but people can disconnect any time they want.

Singling someone out for making a mistake in a video game is laughable to me in the first place. You get what you get in PUGs.

Streamers make mistakes or say something contrary to what i believe but im ok with that too.

[CSQ]

My two cents:

DDO has a community problem- specifically, the community is small, dwindling, and largely the same faces year after year. Those people are mostly great! However, there is an impulse towards insular instincts and unfriendliness to new players and anyone who isn't meta or familiar with every piece of content. Streamers are supposed to represent the game, and if the only time people encounter DDO is hopping into a Twitch steam what they see is forum toxicity (which is unfortunately common), steamers bullying players who screw things up (and I don't mean calling out trolls or trying to get someone to do better, I mean bullying and harassment- I don't know the particular situation referenced but it certainly would be relevant to say that someone doing badly is not necessarily trolling, and it's important to be patient with newer players or players who might be rusty), and a general "toxicity" around the game, it's probably not going to get them into the game or pique their interest further.

This is a shame, because I've experienced a lot of chill, encouraging, friendly runs with people. I've encountered a few, though this is not representative of the community, individuals who are somewhat toxic and snap at other players over tiny mistakes or doing too little DPS or stealing kills or needing healing or just random stuff. The later left a bad taste in my mouth about grouping and LFGs, even though they were rare and didn't really matter. I'm in a position where I can solo the vast majority of non-raid content without challenge, but new players aren't. If that's enough to make a veteran like me not want to group (and I'm not even usually the target of that vitriol) I can only imagine how it makes a newbie feel.

Ultimately, SSG can't (and probably shouldn't) police streamers entirely. It wouldn't be fair or wise to ban streamers who do the same thing that other bad apples do and get away with. However, SSG can (and probably should) not reinforce the voices of streamers who harass, bully, belittle, or otherwise participate in toxic behavior by giving them official sanction. I say this without being entirely read up on the drama, so I don't necessarily think that there needs to be any particular action in this specific case. Streamers get tilted and can yell at random people- one mistake is not a representative attitude. Nor is touching on forum drama- obviously they shouldn't just belittle other people on stream, but there's nothing wrong with disagreeing with other people's opinions as long as you're civil about it. I don't want to say "Yeah SSG should stop supporting <x,y, or z> streamers because they're bad influences." However, if someone consistently and persistently participates in the negative side of the community, the one that drives people away and makes the game less fun for everyone, perhaps there should be considerations in place.

I think a code of conduct would be good. I don't think this because it's important to punish people for their mistakes, but rather because setting expectations might encourage people to be better.

Also, before someone TL: DR's "But muh free speech" you can say whatever you want (within platform limitations- Twitch has a say in that) but that doesn't mean that SSG has to give you special attention. Limiting what promotional assistance you give to a streamer is not suppressing their freedom of speech. If someone said "This dude is stupid" about me, I wouldn't try to stop them from saying it, but I certainly wouldn't give them anything for doing so. If someone promotes toxicity in the community, it's probably better for SSG to not encourage that. It's not stopping them from speaking. It's stopping the gravy train for people who normally get special attention and privileges if they abuse those privileges.

[dogsoldier]

It is obviously directed at an individual streamer.

I do not have any opinions regarding the allegedly obvious streamer in question, except for the potential for that alleged streamer's influence over say, hypothetically, decisions made with the Update 56 implementation, or any future updates.

[Seph1roth5]

Don't really watch streamers for DDO, but I thought that (in USA anyway) you have to disclose if you're being compensated (monetarally?) if you're hawking/reviewing/whatever. There was a whole big thing with 2 old people who RV'd around the country, staying at walmarts and saying how great it was. Then people found out wal-mart had paid/reimbursed them a bunch of $$.

Same with uh...some FPS shooter, probably call of duty? They were promoting some website for training or merchandise or something, but didn't disclose that they were actually part owners of the site. They got in trouble FTC-wise I believe.

[slarden]

It is obviously directed at an individual streamer. You gave two specific examples of said streamers actions, then wrapped it into a thread about not wanting to name names and discuss a code of conduct for streamers. It is clear that you do not like the individual or their actions and are attempting to have SSG modify their behavior and content through the court of public opinion. It is also garnering public dislike toward that individual as this discussion has evolved. That seems a bit like by proxy bullying given your impressive forum presence and influence. (Thanks for your great posts aka content) I would guess that these things would probably violate the forum rules. Modern media nails it, any press is good press. Might just be promoting what one is trying to avoid.

To answer the question in the poll, that is an easy "nah" from me. Streamers other than the SSG official stream are not employees and should not be subject to any SSG internal policy or any forum created rules. Pretty easy. Major violations of conduct will be handled by twitch real quick.

It is not directed at anyone - it's a general issue at least for me - I can't speak for others experience or comments. I think it's great a few fans are supporting their streamer, but the accusations are misguided for sure. Especially the one that accused me of creating the deleted thread which I didn't even do lol.

I was not watching the stream people are talking about - I was playing board games on board game arena and posting a bit between turns because we were playing a game with some downtime between turns. This is a long-standing game with real life friends that at least a dozen people on Sarlona know about because I am unavailable for raids, hardcore and questing.

The deleted thread was what sparked me making this post, but it was an issue that I was concerned about before that incident. As far as I know the incident had nothing to do with me, but happy to send you links of the 4 board game arena games if you need it.

The 2 examples I gave were NOT the streamer some fans keep thinking is being targeted. I've probably watched over 50 streamers - some big, most small. Some supported by SSG and some not. I throw around my free amazon prime sub to various streamers each month and have thrown it to that specific streamer a few times in the past.

No, I try to keep away from the idiocy that is generally all too common in the forums. This is just too hilarious. The idea that a streamer reading forum comments on a public forum on their own stream is "attacking" people, is insane. Again, people need to grow up and understand public comments are just that, public.

And I've already stated in this thread I don't think reading forum posts is bad or agreeing/disagreeing with the posts. You can do that on the forum so why would anyone think it would be problematic? I don't think it is and I haven't heard anyone in this thread saying that's a problem.

Anything that would be a forum infraction would be different. If you can't say it on the forums it's probably not right to say on the stream if someone is getting supported by SSG. If they aren't getting supported by SSG - who cares.

I think a code of conduct would be good. I don't think this because it's important to punish people for their mistakes, but rather because setting expectations might encourage people to be better.

Yep, this is exactly where I am going. Trying to set positive expectations not to punish people for something that already occurred. And again, only for streamers receiving support from SSG as listed in the OP.

[dogsoldier]

I was in the thread that was nuked, and posted a response to someone asking for a list of streamers, either the last, or next to the last post before thread was pulled, I just said something about Voodu Spyce. My working theory at that time was that may have been the trigger for why the thread was pulled, to avoid some kind of en mass stream Exodus, just because of the timing and how the entire stream was watching it take place. That is no less, nor more likely than any of the other oddball theories really though. Almost certainly the thread was pulled because of the attacks that were starting to occur, and that could have escalated for sure.

I can test that theory out right now pretty easily, lets see if this gets nuked (not likely):

And to reiterate what I said during the Thread/Stream:
I like his YouTube videos on Solo'ing Raids, and the the ones related to his Warlock and Druid Tank builds.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9-...XQ1U9yKUvQSxjw

Edit: Might need to say the name 3x, Voodu Spyce, Voodu Spyce
Edit: Having been made aware of Austin Powers Rules: Voodu Spyce, Voodu Spyce, Voodu Spyce

[Coffey]

Yep, this is exactly where I am going. Trying to set positive expectations not to punish people for something that already occurred. And again, only for streamers receiving support from SSG as listed in the OP.

I would make it happen again on principle then. Keep your gifts. Who in their right mind would put themselves in an incentivized straitjacket in their own business.

[dogsoldier]

Does Alleged Streamer's call to specifically nerf Sonic Blast during his livestream (that was the topic of the nuked thread). It is recorded, go look: "SSG, if you are watching this, nerf Sonic Blast"

And then SSGs bizarre decision to do so right in the middle of preparation for go live on Update 56.

And then Alleged Streamers response to the lively discussion happening in that nuked thread ... it is recorded, clip of it was included in the Nuked thread.

Lead to a better game? Is it good for the community of players? Is it good for SSG? Is it good for the streaming community to have to have this type of potential for influence hanging over them?

[dogsoldier]

And does any of that behavior meet the level of professionalism that I think we should expect?

[KraftLorance]

1) Streamer calling out a pug player in their party for being terrible when the name is directly visible to viewers

I've given this some more thought and, for me at least, I think this is the issue. Or at least the biggest issue.

I don't suppose you know who Jim Davis is? Not the famous comic writer, but the hot guy who plays Magic the Gathering professionally. He does this thing where every draft season he plays from Bronze rank (the lowest) up to Mythic rank (the highest). And while he plays, especially at the lower rankings, he explains to his audience the mistakes that his opponents are making. Constantly.

He's calling them out.

Except that he isn't. He's using their in-the-moment mistakes to help his audience learn and grow. It's a teachable moment, not a dogpile.

Is it possible that you've seen a streamer deride a party member in a way that is harmful to that player? Yes. Is it possible that you weren't in the right headspace to catch the nuance of the streamers voice while they served the function of educator, and mistook something as a callout? Also yes.

The issue is, you haven't done anything to show that you've personally put in the work to understanding the context of the situation rather than jumping to a conclusion. And you haven't provided us with the event in question for us to experience the full context as well.

Further, people have differing interpersonal relationships. Sometimes folks have crass nicknames for each other. Sometimes folks just tease each other. And given that I know at least two streamers who consistently have regular members of their community in their PUGs, it is completely possible that you're reacting without taking this relevant piece of context into account.

and invite viewers to harass that community member.

This is a completely reasonable fear. When harassments results, it should be reported and investigated.

These type of activities can easily be viewed as online bullying

But this is part of what's undermining you. "Can easily" inherently means "mistaken for, or otherwise misrepresented as."

That means either SSG would have to present a Code of Conduct that is so vague that it effectively translates to "at SSG's discretion" and therefor has no meaningful differences from SSG's current policy (so it isn't worth the time and effort to make, much less the visual real estate it'd need to exist in).

Or they'd have to get so specific that it's abusable. After all, what's to stop me from messaging you
"Hey doofus,
I saw you on [insert streamer's name here]'s stream. You were a right hooligan, and I'm befuddled as to why you still take up space on the servers, ya hear?"

And then I get six of my mates to write equally scathing harassment. Or I make a dozen sock-puppet accounts so I can send it all myself. Not as a means to harass you, but as a way to take advantage of an overly specific CoC and get a specific streamer blacklisted because they didn't pay attention to me, or because they think Road Island is real.

Freedom of the press is a guaranteed right to every American citizen.

SSG is, to the best of my limited knowledge, not the legislative branch of the federal government. Unless there is something Cordovan would like to share with the rest of the class?

Edit: Might need to say the name 3x, Voodu Spyce, Voodu Spyce

It's actually Austin Power rules so that only counts as having said it twice.

[LightBear]

I didn't mean to imply streamers were getting paid by SSG, by "direct" support I simply mean SSG is doing things to intentionally help specific streamers such as what I listed in the OP:



Indirect support would be things not targeted at a specific streamer, but in this case I consider it direct since they are giving things to specific streamers.

I didn't mean to imply in any way that SSG was paying streamers and I never thought that to be the case.

I would consider "early access" for certain streamers as direct support as well then.
And that might even be thickened if some NDA is involved or extra information is given out on forehand what they can expect to get them excited.
Even more so if they must oblige to give a positive review for receiving these perks.

[KraftLorance]

Does Alleged Streamer's call to specifically nerf Sonic Blast during his livestream (that was the topic of the nuked thread). It is recorded, go look: "SSG, if you are watching this, nerf Sonic Blast"

And then SSGs bizarre decision to do so right in the middle of preparation for go live on Update 56.

And then Alleged Streamers response to the lively discussion happening in that nuked thread ... it is recorded, clip of it was included in the Nuked thread.

Lead to a better game? Is it good for the community of players? Is it good for SSG? Is it good for the streaming community to have to have this type of potential for influence hanging over them?

Actually, oddly enough, you have it backwards. The stream in question happened on Thursday, August 25th. And, though I am not a Timeologist, I don't believe that August 25th comes before Tuesday, August 23rd. Which is when "SSGs bizarre decision to do so right in the middle of preparation for go live on Update 56" happened.

It's almost as though the streamer in question was making a joke about the sonic blast nerf. Taking, one might say, a jab at the developers for something they didn't support. And that there is a vocal group of folks on the forum who blindly fall in step without any desire to understand the context proves my point: the inciting incident for this controversy is a non-issue based, at best, on intentionally obtuse misunderstanding. Gamers trend towards buying into reactionary propaganda, and reactionaries are not people whose opinions we should give weight - in politics, lunchtime takeout, or our videogames.

[dogsoldier]

Actually, oddly enough, you have it backwards. The stream in question happened on Thursday, August 25th. And, though I am not a Timeologist, I don't believe that August 25th comes before Tuesday, August 23rd. Which is when "SSGs bizarre decision to do so right in the middle of preparation for go live on Update 56" happened.

It's almost as though the streamer in question was making a joke about the sonic blast nerf. Taking, one might say, a jab at the developers for something they didn't support. And that there is a vocal group of folks on the forum who blindly fall in step without any desire to understand the context proves my point: the inciting incident for this controversy is a non-issue based, at best, on intentionally obtuse misunderstanding. Gamers trend towards buying into reactionary propaganda, and reactionaries are not people whose opinions we should give weight - in politics, lunchtime takeout, or our videogames.

For the budding Timologists out there, please review this from last month:

https://www.twitch.tv/strimtom/clip/...RTJtEMdkJdVGO8

[dogsoldier]

For the budding Timologists out there, please review this from last month:

https://www.twitch.tv/strimtom/clip/...RTJtEMdkJdVGO8

And this is the clip that actually started that lively discussion from last night:

https://m.twitch.tv/strimtom/clip/Sh...mQtG9fwTZhh8VL