Epic strike questions - draconic incarnation vs primal avatar

[catweasle]

I currently spend most of my time in Heroics and am looking forward to adventure in Epics soon for which I have very limited experience. I'm a little confused when I compare the elemental damage assuming I go Poison between DI's Improved Dragon Breath - Energy Vortex and PA's Carrion Swarm.

While I understand that the Energy Vortex clearly requires deeper investment in a tree, it seems at a glance that it would do significantly more damage than Carrion Swarm and last nearly twice as long. Also, I don't understand how the Carrion Swarm could ever stack 3 times given that the cooldown in the wiki says 6 seconds and it only lasts for 8 seconds.

If I'm poisoned focused, am I better off selecting the Improved Breath option in DI while still selecting the Primal Spell thorn options in PA? Any advice / tips would be appreciated.

My heroics are all about an Alchemist Inquisitor Vile Chemist and I want to play around with the concept of shooting occasionally supported with AOE elemental damage when mobs start to crowd me. This build is just for running R1 difficulty.

[dogsoldier]

I currently spend most of my time in Heroics and am looking forward to adventure in Epics soon for which I have very limited experience. I'm a little confused when I compare the elemental damage assuming I go Poison between DI's Improved Dragon Breath - Energy Vortex and PA's Carrion Swarm.

First time in Epics recommendation:

For levels 20-22:

Go into Primal for Thorn path, Carrion Swarm, and Cacoon, and the Thorn Path Mantle, don't forget to toggle your mantle on.

Go into Unyielding for the Divine Energy Resistance SLA (Alchemists get stacking resistance, but not the regular resistance), and the Renewal SLA.

Hotbar each of those Strikes / SLAs, make sure each metamagic you have is Always On.

Carrion is really cheap on spell points and Alchemist can run out pretty fast, and those healing SLAs together with metas, plus the 35 point to all energy resistances are kind of your not dying options aside from pot chucking.

Use your 3rd tree as the fun try stuff out in different Epic Destinies to see what else you might like, reset it every once in a while to try something different.

At level 23 there are a bunch of new options that open up, and it kind of depends upon what you want to do.

at level 23: Primal has a T3 Upgrade ability for giving your hires +60% hitpoints, all of your spell powers, and share the mantle procs. So if you use Hires, they become more useful at 23+. Also at 23, Primal gets Ever Green, a chance for your spells to proc +100 temp spell points, good for Alchemist's limited spell point pool. The second Primal Thorn spell gives Temp Hit Points with the upgrade at 23, and then shoots shards out at mobs around you. Primal T4-5 stuff is not that great though in my opinion, so you could easily go for another tree as your main one. The T1-3 stuff is great though, and that is what you will be using in early epics. Primal offers a choice of either Conjuration (most of your blasty stuff) or Transmutation (the crowd control spells like flash freeze). Probably you are mostly using Conjuration so this lines up well there.

Draconic is more of an All-In tree, you either go big there, or not at all. For instance, boosts to Wellspring of Power, Ruin and Greater Ruin, and some DoTs like Burning Blood, etc. If you are not going to use those, you get less value from the tree overall, in my opinion. The DC selections at T3 do line up with Alchemist (Conjuration of Transmutation), so if you like the Dragon's Breath strike you could go there instead. There are nice upgrades for the Mantle, giving it a DoT when it procs, and increasing the damage of the Dragon's Breath strike.

at level 23 Exalted has a Healing Aura with the T3 upgrade to the mantle, it also has a couple of nice SLAs: Cure Mod Mass, and Holy Fireball, but it is more of a Fire/Light Divine theme there. It is kind of hard to make use of enough stuff in Exalted to get to T5 unless you are a Divine though. Exalted does offer Conjuration DCs at Tier 3, if you wanted to try the healing upgrade for the mantle. The Cure Mod Mass SLA is good as well, if you go this route. Probably would not be your T5 tree, but might be a secondary tree, or something fun to try out.

at level 23: Shadowdancer gives some nice defensive boosts (reflex Saves from Lithe), cooldown reduction, Dimension Door SLA with the level 23 Core. The level 26 Core for Shadowdancer upgrades your Evasion to Improved Evasion. Edit: Also at level 23, Shadowcaster gives neg level immunity in addition to spell cooldown reduction.

at level 23, Fatesinger has a nice spell point reduction ability. Fatesinger can also give more DCs if it is your main tree so if you wanted your Freeze spells to land better, that may help, but that is more of a what do you want to choose for my T5 tree at cap decision (cannot take T5s until level 30+). The Greatest Shout SLA is pretty nice, which you can grab at 26, not so much for the damage, but for another crowd control option. The DC selections in the middle do not line up with Alchemist though.

[Bjond]

If you have nicely fitted gear (the right power & dc & etc), you'll do great leveling in epics on alchemist almost regardless of which EDs you use. IMHO, Draconic is the best for outright DPS. Primal is nice for the TMP HP from Shard Storm (if tanking) and the elemental absorbs.

Carrion Swarm DPS is slooooow. It's OK for a raid boss, but other stuff will likely die too fast from your vials to bother using it for DPS. Shard TMP HP is also 60% uptime, which is fine for a tank, but a caster will want something with better coverage (and it steals a button and a GCD from better DPS).

For my PM, I found spells are better than the breath unless you can go deep enough for the doubler in T4. But, I don't use Draconic anymore.

Oddly, I run my PM in EA. It's lower DPS than Draconic, but still has a bonus proc. Significantly less squishy to magic (mantle T4), much more mobile (LEAP!), and my PM can heal living (aura + T5 chain heal).

For an alch, the hands-free aura heals might give you a dps advantage and smoother play because the aura is enough to fix those that aren't deliberately taking damage (and it doesn't cost a GCD).

[dogsoldier]

I just noticed the Inquisitive note at the end of your post. Fyi, primal is a hybrid type of tree. So, you would get Mantle Procs on either spells, or melee / ranged attacks. I have only actually used it with melee, and it is nice there, not sure about Ranged hybrid, but seems like it could work out well too

For spells you have to match the acid / poison / force Procs with your respective spells, so consider that in your rotation, poison, then acid, then force if you have it, and so on.

For melee / ranged, they just go off in round robin so no need to worry about matching the attack to the Procs.

[Kebtid]

I will answer the question with a question.

Are you aware that the immunity strip for poison specifically does not work for alchemist?

That answer should tell you that poison is not optimal for epic and raiding for a alchemist.
It looks great on paper but in practice it is the worst choice right now in the tree.

[dogsoldier]

I will answer the question with a question.

Are you aware that the immunity strip for poison specifically does not work for alchemist?

That answer should tell you that poison is not optimal for epic and raiding for a alchemist.
It looks great on paper but in practice it is the worst choice right now in the tree.

It has been a while since I played Alchemist. Would a Cold / Electric setup in Sky Mantle make more sense for their caster / ranged setup?

[Kebtid]

It has been a while since I played Alchemist. Would a Cold / Electric setup in Sky Mantle make more sense for their caster / ranged setup?

Fire was favoured for a long time, elec cold are both fine now since leg feat rework.

[catweasle]

I will answer the question with a question.

Are you aware that the immunity strip for poison specifically does not work for alchemist?

That answer should tell you that poison is not optimal for epic and raiding for a alchemist.
It looks great on paper but in practice it is the worst choice right now in the tree.

No, I was not aware. The immunity strip can come from either Wave of Poison or Poison Attack in the Vile Chemist enhancement tree. So what you're saying is that it works for neither. This is disappointing. I will have to rethink my plans.

What I should have mentioned in my opening post is that I plan to take the Shiradi mantle because I'll be shooting a lot of the time. It's just that the Epic Strikes in PA and DI looked quite strong and would potentially be useful when I'm surrounded close up by crowds of mobs.

Not sure how I'll build this out now.

[dogsoldier]

No, I was not aware. The immunity strip can come from either Wave of Poison or Poison Attack in the Vile Chemist enhancement tree. So what you're saying is that it works for neither. This is disappointing. I will have to rethink my plans.

What I should have mentioned in my opening post is that I plan to take the Shiradi mantle because I'll be shooting a lot of the time. It's just that the Epic Strikes in PA and DI looked quite strong and would potentially be useful when I'm surrounded close up by crowds of mobs.

Not sure how I'll build this out now.

If you are going Shiradi, it's weird insofar as Hunts End is the strike, which of course you want to use, but it puts the T1 strikes on cooldown. You don't have to pair it with a destiny shot though. Been a while, but on archers I had paired it with Sniper Shot, may be something like that in Vile Chemist. And I think Pin/Whistler still has problems.

Also consider sonic Shiradi + Harmonic Resonance, and then Reign at 23 if you are mostly ranged, from Fatesinger. You might want the Fatesinger strikes instead as everything would be sonic vulnerable. First one shares a cool down with hunts end, second one does not.

[dogsoldier]

That Shoot Later shot from Inquisitive might pair well with Hunt's End.

[Bjond]

I just noticed the Inquisitive note

Ugh, I didn't notice that tidbit at all.

As primary ranged, you absolutely want Shiradi T5 for both Strike and Epic Moment. Shiradi mantle is very fluffy for ranged. Grab a mantle from your two other trees.

My ranged alch was setup from the start to run INQ sub29 and thrower 29+. All gear should be focused on ranged DPS. I had enough leftover space for healing power and regular spell mastery, but nothing else. This is enough to stick CC (mostly) sub-29, but not at all 29+. However, alchemist has a huge glaring fault you likely haven't hit in heroics that make using heals or cc quite painful.

The ranged stance for alchemist drops when you cast just about any spell you might want to use as support for your ranged play (eg. heals and cc). And, your DPS spells likely won't have enough power to be even slightly useful. So, you loose several GCDs every time you want to cast a spell just to get back to the right stance. I found it so annoying that (for me) alchemist is unplayable as a ranged base class.

However, I did find a couple ways to mitigate the issue and stay in ranged stance: use FOTW:Mantle for it's heals until 23 then use EA:Mantle for 23+. I found US:Renewal much nicer than Primal:Cocoon, but either one will let you heal yourself while staying in your alchemist ranged stance. EA's leap is very handy for kiting, too.

Ideally, you'll want to pick just one of those potentials for heals and then pick an ED that gives you more ranged power. I liked SD with EA:Mantle and US with LD:Mantle, but it's fine doubling your healing EDs if you need it. US+EA was the best heal pair for me post 23, FOTW:Mantle + US or Primal (depending on if you have enough points) sub-23.

Your solo reaper ability will likely mostly depend on ranged power and your weapon for L20+. Epic Storm with 6 ranged power (including rare raids) was enough to easily handle R4. This may be much more gearing effort than you want, but not to worry. If you grab a Keep weapon with a more reasonable 4~5 non-rare ranged power filigrees, my bet is you'll have no problems solo'ing R1 and could likely do R3~4 if you want to scramble a little.

[dogsoldier]

This is for DEX Archer, but you may find something interesting in the list. The Update 50 Revamped Sands / Fens Epic gear is really nice. And some of the sets slot around Wallwatch nicely too if you are using that, like Epic Raven's Sight + Epic Gem of Many Facets.

https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showth...ar)-DEX-Ranged

The Sands Crossbow (Storm) drops in the raid though, so if you do not have it yet, get flagged for Zawabi's, and save up your Sands Runes, and mats to upgrade it.

Edit: More Info from the Wiki, on all of the items that drop from Sands and Red Fens.

https://ddowiki.com/page/Sands_of_Me...run_epic_items

https://ddowiki.com/page/The_Red_Fens_epic_items

Gem of Many Facets drops from the Chronoscope Raid, no Flagging required:

https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Gem_of_Many_Facets

[Wizard1406]

I will answer the question with a question.

Are you aware that the immunity strip for poison specifically does not work for alchemist?

That answer should tell you that poison is not optimal for epic and raiding for a alchemist.
It looks great on paper but in practice it is the worst choice right now in the tree.

Huh? Is that a new bug? Poison immunity stripping worked for me when I played Alchemist some months ago. I chose poison since it's the only alch. element not allowing evasion for 0 damage. Legendary mob saves are sky high.

[Kebtid]

Huh? Is that a new bug? Poison immunity stripping worked for me when I played Alchemist some months ago. I chose poison since it's the only alch. element not allowing evasion for 0 damage. Legendary mob saves are sky high.

Tronko tested not even 3 weeks ago, i sincerely doubt they fixed it, even tho he reported the bug.

[catweasle]

Ugh, I didn't notice that tidbit at all.

As primary ranged, you absolutely want Shiradi T5 for both Strike and Epic Moment. Shiradi mantle is very fluffy for ranged. Grab a mantle from your two other trees.

My ranged alch was setup from the start to run INQ sub29 and thrower 29+. All gear should be focused on ranged DPS. I had enough leftover space for healing power and regular spell mastery, but nothing else. This is enough to stick CC (mostly) sub-29, but not at all 29+. However, alchemist has a huge glaring fault you likely haven't hit in heroics that make using heals or cc quite painful.

The ranged stance for alchemist drops when you cast just about any spell you might want to use as support for your ranged play (eg. heals and cc). And, your DPS spells likely won't have enough power to be even slightly useful. So, you loose several GCDs every time you want to cast a spell just to get back to the right stance. I found it so annoying that (for me) alchemist is unplayable as a ranged base class.

However, I did find a couple ways to mitigate the issue and stay in ranged stance: use FOTW:Mantle for it's heals until 23 then use EA:Mantle for 23+. I found US:Renewal much nicer than Primal:Cocoon, but either one will let you heal yourself while staying in your alchemist ranged stance. EA's leap is very handy for kiting, too.

Ideally, you'll want to pick just one of those potentials for heals and then pick an ED that gives you more ranged power. I liked SD with EA:Mantle and US with LD:Mantle, but it's fine doubling your healing EDs if you need it. US+EA was the best heal pair for me post 23, FOTW:Mantle + US or Primal (depending on if you have enough points) sub-23.

I thought the Shiradi Mantle for ranged was supposed to be pretty decent triggering 15% of the time which would be frequently on a repeater or Inquisitor xbow build. It's disheartening to learn that an Inquis Alchemist can't rotate well with spells and shooting depending on circumstances.

I hadn't even considered US or EA from the divine trees for a mantle. I'll have to check out what they offer. I read in another thread that T5 in DC is meant to be top DPS for Inquisitive ranged because of all the Law Damage dice you can pick up with Law of the Divine kicking in for every shot.

So many options for me to think about now. I guess it all boils down to what actually works as written in the wiki and what is still bugged.

[catweasle]

This is for DEX Archer, but you may find something interesting in the list. The Update 50 Revamped Sands / Fens Epic gear is really nice. And some of the sets slot around Wallwatch nicely too if you are using that, like Epic Raven's Sight + Epic Gem of Many Facets.

https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showth...ar)-DEX-Ranged

The Sands Crossbow (Storm) drops in the raid though, so if you do not have it yet, get flagged for Zawabi's, and save up your Sands Runes, and mats to upgrade it.

I haven't even started to think about gear yet. The Sands Crossbow seems pretty decent. Thanks for posting the gear thread for me to start getting some ideas of what I'll need.

[catweasle]

If you are going Shiradi, it's weird insofar as Hunts End is the strike, which of course you want to use, but it puts the T1 strikes on cooldown. You don't have to pair it with a destiny shot though. Been a while, but on archers I had paired it with Sniper Shot, may be something like that in Vile Chemist. And I think Pin/Whistler still has problems.

Is there a serious problem with Pin/Whistler? It becomes much harder to build out in Epics if so many of the choices in the trees are bugged and I don't know about them.

[OfElectricMen]

Is there a serious problem with Pin/Whistler? It becomes much harder to build out in Epics if so many of the choices in the trees are bugged and I don't know about them.

In my experience, Pin and Hunt's End just don't work well with any kind of rapid fire ranged attack like Inquis or repeaters. They completely disrupt the attack sequence for a not great benefit. Like, it's not worth taking at all. You're better off skipping it for epic strikes from other trees. Same with the points you'd put in Pin.

If you have Hunt's End fully fleshed out, it works great with Arrow of Slaying. I'll find out in a month or two how it works with throwing weapons and a great crossbow.

[droid327]

I would just go Shiradi (T5 mantle strike), Draconic, Shadow and not even look back. If you're an Inqui in Epic, then your Shiradi mantle is far and away the best mechanic you have to use. Shadow provides Imp Evasion, sneak die, MDB in Light armor, Dshot, etc. Draconic gives you imbue die and some boosts to your occasional Poison spellcasting. It pretty much aligns perfectly with your playstyle, which will be mostly about lining up mobs for IPS multi hits, tapping champs and reapers with Hunts End, and trucking through quests like a boss.

[vageta311]

Tronko tested not even 3 weeks ago, i sincerely doubt they fixed it, even tho he reported the bug.

I just ran an epic alchemist life less than 2 weeks ago and it worked fine. It would have been literally impossible to level to 30 if it hadn't.