Notes from the Sacred Fist

[Hitstorm]

Levels 10-11

I decided to do a build test in Tharask Arena, solo, R1. It took me 12 minutes to complete. For a point of comparison, it takes me about 7-8 minutes on an AOE caster and 9-10 mins on a THF Barbarian or Bear. Next, I tried some quests two levels above me on R2 Newcomers and the two Ataraxia adventures in a small group (3). Newcomers and Reclamation felt heavy, especially champion dwarves where it would take a series of hits to bring them down. I am weirdly tanky, able to generate many misses through AC and dodge (17%). Sacred Fist seems to be performing best as the 2nd melee in the way a melee rogue used to excel when fighting next to a barbarian. I feel the Sacred Fist would benefit greatly from some sneak attack dice.

Next, I ran through the revamped Temple of Elemental Evil (R2) where performance was high. Extremely high saves and evasion made for SS level of defense in the elemental nodes. DPS was on par with other melee in the party which was, of course, dwarfed by that of casting and ranged. There is no ability in the Sacred Fist to compensate for AOE kills of caster or the ability to engage and kill at a quadruple distance that ranged has although this obviously isn't a problem specific to the Sacred Fist but also is shared by all melee builds. Sacred Fist crushes older content like Shadow Crypt where is speed and DPS overwhelms the mobs and quest.

Abilties we have and those we have not

Sacred Fist moves like a monk, you are extremely fast like a monk and your animations are like a monk. It feels natural that you should be able to make long leaps. Alas, no abundant step. You'll notice this. I sure did. I understand the need to differentiate between Monk and Sacred Fist but that doesn't mean the hole isn't there. TWF is a problematic playstyle in modern DDO. The main benefit - offhand effect strikes, doesn't apply to handwraps. Therefore we miss out on the Strikethrough from THF, the attack speed of SWF, and the offhand effects from TWF with weapons. I can't help but feel that handwraps should get something to bring this into balance. Not unique to Sacred Fist but certainly a concern.

Let's look at the two Sacred Fist spells I've had a chance to use:

Ki Bolt - I usually hesitate to say a spell or ability is useless because I'm just me and there are thousands of players out there who might find a better use for something than I have. With that caveat, Ki Bolt is on the margins of useless. For 10 Ki your entire attack animation stops, you go into a monkish casting stance and then launch what feels like a stone at Goliath without the spectacular results. From a cost-effective standpoint, this is virtually the same price as your far superior Exalted Whirlwind (12 ki). Let's put aside for a moment that the spell barely does any damage, the major currently insurmountable drawback is the animation change. You simply cannot use this in close combat the animation is so jarring and such an impediment to your attack sequence. As an opening move, it is poor as well because you use up 10 Ki eating into your ability to pull off an opening Exalted Whirlwind which, as already pointed out, is far superior. In order to save this spell it needs to be an AOE effect like fan of knives. Either that or drop the Ki cost down to 2.

Sacred Flame Empowerment - this spell is noticeably good and a welcome improvement to your DPS. However, it has a prohibitive cost, 18 Ki, which seems extremely expensive for an L2 spell, and one that is supposed to be in the arsenal of a low-level character where Ki is at a premium. 18 Ki is the same cost as the T5 Avenging Whirlwind attack. The 20-second duration seems to suggest that this is supposed to be used as an attack button buff but the cost is far too high for this to be practical. My suggestion would be to either drop the Ki cost down to 10 or increase the duration to 60 seconds. Right now, its too expensive to use on a regular basis when you're in a party. Sacred Flame Empowerment has the potential to be a key feature of the class with some cost or duration tweaks.

Question and Answers

I look forward to hearing all feedback on this class or my adventures.



It's my understanding that Avenging Whirlwind, the T5 Sacred Fist enhancement, shares a cooldown with Great Cleave, not with Whirlwind attack. Having more AOE attacks is better for a TWF build that doesn't have Strikethrough. In practice, I don't think I'll have the Ki to sustain spamming Exalted and Avenging Whirlwind (that's 30 Ki if used in succession). Having Whirlwind attack basically cuts that cost in half or allows me 3 AOE attack for high-danger situations.



I don't agree with your overall conclusion about Precision in Legendary. When I play melee, I'm playing either a Barbarian or a Bear THF, neither of which uses Precision. Power Attack works fine and they have no trouble at all with Reapers or bosses. When I played THF Paladin, I experimented a great deal with both Precision and Power Attack. I agree Precision was better versus Reapers but I wouldn't say I ever felt ridiculously gimpy with Power Attack. There are many sources of Fortification bypass now. That's not to say Precision isn't good, it is, and not having either Power Attack or Precision is the trade-off cost of getting Whirlwind attack. One of the things I'm going to be paying attention to is are the T4 and T5 cores of Sacred Fist worth getting over Precision. Precision would be available in my proposed 16/2/2 multiclass split. I have no comment on the MRR cap at the moment since I'm in heroics. How cloth wearing melee fares in Legendary is certainly one of the metrics for this journey to test.

Hi, i just finished an Aasimar Sacred Fist handwraps TR (at 20). Some of my experience :
- TWF is slooow at the beginning. Haste pots become an addiction
- Ki is somewhat secondary, until it suddenly becomes important (for Wave). I cast Ki bolt 3 times i think, its just not good.
- Sacred flame empowerment is for bossfights with few or no adds, i save all ki for wave/explosion
- Ki explosion makes me feel like a sorc. For those who have done a 2mnk/18EK(wiz/sorc), it feels very much this.
- Ki item is a must for AoE in mid-late heroics. Run to mobs, wave on the way there, build up more ki, explosion, rince+repeat.
- Exalted smite feels underwhelming (and slow), but boy, when it hits it HITS. Seen it at 1.7-1.8k, but that's once in a blue moon. Very fun when it does though
- Very good performance in heroics after a slow start. Late heroics is brilliant, but tapers off once mobs get 3k hps (like in IQ)
- I didn't take this into epics, but i suspect it will perform like a sad monk build. Wave + Explosion will have to carry this archetype, and i think it won't scale well.

My next build (which i TR'ed into yesterday), is a staff build. 1ro/1fvs, rest Pally or take 2-3 rouge once you get holysword+explosion.
The QoL with 1lvl of rogue (skill points (jump!), some trapping/spot, attackspeed in TA) is just unbeatable. Then 1 fvs for quarterstaff deity and
nightshield spell. THFx3, Swords2plowshares, Power attack, imp crit, +1 open. Simple but effective and fun so far.

[Marshal_Lannes]

Let's talk about the Sacred Fist enhancement trees. Radiant Servant is a total miss. I haven't taken a single point in this tree and I struggle to see why anyone would. None of the cores do anything except give healing power and who is going to make a healing Paladin with a spell point pool only a fraction of that for a cleric or FVS? The cores should at least give added HPs and/or HAMP to make them somewhat attractive. The best theoretical combination I could come up with is going to core 3 for the Positive Energy burst. You'd take 3 points into Bliss which would end up giving you 15 temp HPs from your (many) Turn Undead charges. That's basically useless on Live, and while it has some value on hardcore during low levels, almost everyone would be taking their first 40 points in Defender and Fist for offense/defense. Then I don't know, Divine Cleansing? Divine Healing? It's all filler. This tree needs major work. I get it, they didn't have an easy option to put here but Radiant Servant doesn't even have enough attractiveness to make this viable. Useful only if making a Turn Undead flavor Paladin.

Sacred Fist is a great tree low and mid-tier but lacks power in its 5th and 6th cores and on Tier 5. Core 5 - +1 saves, 1 sacred die, and 20-second Ki generation after a Turn Undead use. Compare this to Inquisitive Core 5 which gets +3 to saves, 10 ranged power, Slippery Mind, +3 law dice, and +4 DEX bonus to armor. I mean that blows Sacred Fist away. The same problems exist with the 6th core which should provide 20 Melee Power and multiple sacred fist die. Tier 5 has three abilities of questionable or overpriced value. Evasive Dance is a perplexing skill. 3 APs for something that gives you 50% of Improved Evasion. Considering many Sacred Fist are going to get full Improved Evasion from Shadowdancer in epics this doesn't feel well thought out. I would never take this since 10 points in Shadowdancer is a no-brainer for what we are building here. Did anyone think about this when putting together the tree? Divine Strike is the standard demon/devil stun. It's fine but in modern DDO it should be 1 point. I wanted to like Violence Begets Violence. I really did. Here is another ability that should be 1 point considering it is very situationally useful. In most group settings this will almost never trigger except in red-name fights. I'm not sure that will even be useful in a non-heroic red-name fight because the mob has to miss you. Epic reds almost all have True Seeing and will penetrate your defenses leading to far fewer misses. Am I missing something here? This one is hard to track on the combat results as well so I can't ever be sure how much extra DPS thru crits I am generating.

In general, the Sacred Defender tree is good but considering they changed the requirements for the Defender stance to include robes why didn't they adjust other skills in this tree to accommodate the monk playstyle? For example, Sacred Shield Mastery - you can't use a shield or you become uncentered. So why is this even in the tree? Not one Sacred Fist can take it. Defensive Boost is a PRR/MRR clickie but your MRR is capped at 50 fairly quick in heroics. One of the cores in SD should increase the MRR cap. Reinforced Defense is another one. It adds AC bonus based on Armor and Shield. No Shield use is possible so this shouldn't be an option. The Armor boost shouldn't scale off the cloth armor bonus because it's so low compared to the heavy/medium armor that vanilla Paladins are using. Harbored by Light gives major boosts to PRR/MRR but again, you're capped. It feels like these are rather easy fixes that could be made giving synergy with the cloth robes a Sacred Fist will be wearing.

What do you think about the Sacred Fist enhancement trees? Has your experience been similar?

[C-Dog]

...Radiant Servant is a total miss. I haven't taken a single point in this tree and I struggle to see why anyone would...

I saw it as a solo tree; if you want to self-heal like a cleric, that's your path there. (Esp the Remove Poison/Disease/Curse/Unpleasantness abilities.)

Don't ~plan~ on taking (m)any myself - but some might.

[Marshal_Lannes]

I saw it as a solo tree; if you want to self-heal like a cleric, that's your path there. (Esp the Remove Poison/Disease/Curse/Unpleasantness abilities.)

Don't ~plan~ on taking (m)any myself - but some might.

I tried to envision that scenario but every time I kept coming up with the solution that you're better off going T5 Sacred Defender with near limitless Lay on Hands if going solo. All the Poison/Disease stuff a Paladin is immune to anyway so you don't really need any of that from Radiant Servant. Maybe one could play a pacifist monk warrior and go Sacred Defender, Radiant Servant, and Feydark illusionist. You would CC mobs with Greater Color Spray, act as a (heroic) tank, and function as a healer-lite. That would be worth trying but you'd need to be part of a group because leveling would be awful if you actually had to DPS anything.

[str8nger]

long time reader, rarely poster....

preface this with, i play monk, since they came out. i've done every version, good, bad and ugly...all pure usually. I did multiclass a SF with monk, a few different level splits...no benefits that amount enough to do it....be one or the other imo. i tried no other multi-class...

32 sacred fist. i played a few days at 32 which was enough for me to compare. i was comparing monk to SF of course, i was not comparing other classes. leveling was easy, i wanted to see how sitting at 32 compared to my monk at 32...i usually solo R3/4 and group R6/10 and raid hard or reaper. my gear is good...reaper stuff, mythic stuff, stuff stuff...

starting stats were something like this...
Drow race - dont fight it...just go with it. +8 tomes all around

dumped str
14 dex (+8 tome lvls 15/18 took the rest of TWF line)
12 or 14 con i think - you could lower this more as well if needed...
12 int - concentration, heal, umd because i do that always, tumble (10 pnts) and something else...balance maybe idk.
dumped wis (i think or took minimum if there was one for spells)
20 cha

there was some discussion about stats and what to focus on...not sure why you would go STR based as you dont get a trance anyways. could go WIS based which i did a lesser and tried for a few hours and took falconry points...it only helped with DCs, and could take no points in sacred defender as a result...so not worth it to me. another "trick" to get past the fighting lines at level cap, if you went STR or DEX, take the minimum to get one line and take the feat that grants a different line at 30 or 32 or whenever it was...so if you wanted to try the stick build with dex, after you have leveled up you could go back and do a lesser and dump the other stat if you needed to...then you get both lines by only pumping one stat...if all that makes sense lol. that is if you wanted to go STR focused but get the TWF line as you can pump STR pretty high...i use both wraps and sticks on my monk when im in the mood and have both lines...totally dumped STR. WIS instead

thought someone said something about the TWF line not affecting wraps?? (they do) or maybe they said THF?? (they don't)

main thing for me was going CHA to dmg even though you have no trance to speak of for DCs, since it was a free feat.
i had WIS focused gear but made a few adjustments to CHA and filigrees and was 90 CHA self buffed, maybe you can get it higher, cool. I didnt spend the time to pinch every penny here. i was experimenting...gateway builds lead to harder builds...

feats were not in this order:
TWF
precision - its what i do...
dodge - could take a diety feat instead or monk PL for more W.
plowshares
IC bludg (starting to wonder if i need to take this ever, maybe i dont know how crits work lol)
ITWF
GTWF

i took child of faith or the other one in epics somewhere...didnt see anything better. dealer's choice, i like straight damage when possible.

epic feats are dealers choice, lots to choose from...i took blinding speed to stave off my haste pot addiction...had a speed item on, but the withdrawals were so strong i still needed the feat....
i took other stuff too...

no stunning fist, except when i went WIS based...i took it then because i had the trance also, DC were good.

no stunning was frustrating...as i am used to stunning and locking things in jade.

2 whirlwind attacks are awesome, needed a high enough DC to make the stun land in epic strikes making them even awesomer.

some folks have no issues with DCs. if that is you...cool.

one thing i noticed...the most...when buffed with all your self spells, and the fist spell and you are all jacked up on holy energy...my DPS numbers were good. the light damage was very good coupled with the main damage. i seem to crit all day long too. honestly it was like every hit was a crit of some sort. i dont pay attention to many things...but ive watched numbers fly above my head for 13 years...the DPS was good, when you break DR and add it all up. the light broke most, but now you are doing all the other wraps to break DR...whereas the monk did it all...I was back to swapping wraps for situations...i dont have to do that too often with monk duality wraps...basically BIS, we can fight about that all day...lots of cool wraps out there though, so DR is not a big deal, just mentioning it as a QoL thing. get a bag of wraps and augments and you will be fine...what to sentient?? yeah back to BIS, and that's a fun argument...i agree with everyone.

and i know im comparing monk a lot here too...as a straight DPS punch pally...it felt very niche and role play...kinda like one person mentioned how a rogue felt next to a barbarian. I could not tank like a pally...not really...not for long...
it was very fun, i like that there were less buttons, but hated it too...

not sure why you would do anything other than handwrap on a SF, though i love hearing people's ideas...

i like that you have more options to play toons that use handwraps...all my playing still puts monk at the top for that weapon choice, though shifter and SF are not far behind...they just play different...and if you like to play for fun or like options...you have some.

i did notice my weapon die was lower as a SF vs monk ...i think i was like 10.5W as a pally and 15.3W as a monk...so multiclassing might lower that...i dont know...the capstone adds weapon die...what else increases W?

all the SF points up to 41 i spent...rest went into sacred defender...i had lots of HP, saves, AC, and 75 MRR at 32...a few points in racial only because i had to spend them...would not take much there if i had none...more CHA?

i used GMOF destiny mantle, and took epic moment in that tree too...DCs sucked still but maybe you wont?
leg dreadnaught took the rest of my points going back and forth between the bard tree for some cool vorpal effects...destinies seem to be dealers choice...thats what i did.

i felt the feat choices were limited...after taking 3 fighting line, plows and a stance, and IC:Blud...you get 2...at least you dont HAVE to take any more lol...pick a metamagic if they work, or the diety feats...those 5 seem like must haves...

blast that wave thing then rush in kick stuff twice, throw a smite at the end...most things are dead..if they arent, at least you can survive long enough usually to do it again...ki was not an issue after lvl 13 or so...maybe 15...and never an issue later on...

not sure how much value i added here...(2 cents worth if im lucky). its cool they have these archetypes...cant wait to see the monk one...if anyone else played/plays a SF at level cap, i would love to hear your story...i know i did not break down gear and all that other stuff...the important parts were SF tree...and remembering your feat choices...and have fun.

the class is missing a few things...a cool leap and a trance...no clue why there wouldnt be at least a trance in the SF tree for CHA to DCs...or even in the lvl 18 core or capstone or something for goodness sake. yeah yeah you can multi-class...but now you HAVE to...not cool.
its missing a stun or trip or something...kinda makes you want to be STR based and take stunning blow, but then why have CHA to hit and damage...something seems off to boost this guys/gals DCs...

questions i was left with...is this a tank or a DPS or a hybrid or something new? when i roleplay it...it plays like a monk that wants to defend righteously and is focused on demons...i think it should not have monk animations, wear heavy plate, but still use handwraps with no kicking...boost the handwrap light damage massively and let them be a tank that touches...

ive said too much, thank you for your time.

edit: i just learned any weapon while centered works on SF, might change my decisions later on...

[Marshal_Lannes]

long time reader, rarely poster....

i used GMOF destiny mantle, and took epic moment in that tree too...DCs sucked still but maybe you wont?
leg dreadnaught took the rest of my points going back and forth between the bard tree for some cool vorpal effects...destinies seem to be dealers choice...thats what i did.

blast that wave thing then rush in kick stuff twice, throw a smite at the end...most things are dead..if they arent, at least you can survive long enough usually to do it again...ki was not an issue after lvl 13 or so...maybe 15...and never an issue later on...

the class is missing a few things...a cool leap and a trance...no clue why there wouldnt be at least a trance in the SF tree for CHA to DCs...or even in the lvl 18 core or capstone or something for goodness sake. yeah yeah you can multi-class...but now you HAVE to...not cool.
its missing a stun or trip or something...kinda makes you want to be STR based and take stunning blow, but then why have CHA to hit and damage...something seems off to boost this guys/gals DCs...

questions i was left with...is this a tank or a DPS or a hybrid or something new?...

Thanks for your thoughts. I concur on several things here. Sacred Fist does feel like its missing a leap and a trance. And every time I fire off one of my Ki attacks I end up thinking, shouldn't one of these be like the old Drifting Lotus? Some sort of stun or knockdown feels missing. Right now, both Ki wave and explosion feel too similar. One should provide some sort of CC effect. I also get the whole tank/DPS hybrid feeling. That's not necessarily bad and may be an area why Archetypes excel. True, traditionally DDO doesn't reward versatility and tends to favor do what you do best and do it to an 11. But Sacred Fist offers a blended option that some players might find agreeable. You can (sort of) tank and you can (sort of) DPS on R1-3 heroics which, in summation, makes it a perfectly viable class.

I haven't gotten to epics yet being sidetracked with raiding and now Crystal Cove, but I plan on going far enough into Shadowdancer to get Improved Evasion (and DD) as for primary destiny I'm going to try out Grandmaster and Fatesinger. Maybe even Primal. I agree that the options seem rather open with this build. It's too bad the Sacred Fist can't qualify for some of the Unyielding Sentinal benefits otherwise we'd really open up the tank path.

[Marshal_Lannes]

Sacred Fist is an ideal class to run in the current Crystal Cove event. The class features:

• Extremely fast
• Self Healing
• Good Defenses
• Single target and AOE attacks for both Red Names and mobs on the line

These attributes allow you to fulfill a variety of roles from torching, to scouting, to line or center defense. Paladins have long been known for their versatility and the Sacred Fist builds on this by adding in SS class speed. I've done the Cove on both a Bearbarian and the Sacred Fist. Both were enjoyable, both had their perks and differences (don't sleep on the mass long striding that druids/rangers can throw on kobolds).

[dogsoldier]

I am now interested in Cove again on my "let's see how this works as 1st life no gear except what I find" character. After skipping cove for so long, and not doing much Cannith torch challenges either, any suggestions for a good Cove guide?

Edit: going to head to 3BC to try for Tielfing Assasins' Blade or Sky Pirate's Dagger, but may hit cove for accessories or something instead. Torch running is the part I don't really want to do, will see if I can find a torch runner with an LFM.

[str8nger]

[QUOTE=Marshal_Lannes;6541745]Thanks for your thoughts.

Thanks, i do like your write ups, yours and Dogsoldier's...it's nice.

i'm trying out a few things as well...because you are right about it being viable.

I feel like SF does have a few options to steer away from the monk idea all together. I didnt realize the main feature of SF works when centered, vs using handwraps only...so dogsoldier has been throwing a ton of ideas out...and some look fun.

over-all I think this fits in well with the goal of archetypes.

[Marshal_Lannes]

I can definitively report that Quicken enhances not only the casting speed of your two Ki spells but also streamlines the animation. What does that mean? Well, when you normally do a Ki Explosion your character goes into a sort of stance and then emits the blast. When it is Quickened, that happens so fast that there is barely any break in your attack sequence. Same thing with Ki Wave, when Quickened this functions more as an opening attack move that fits with your martial arts animations rather than a pause to cast a spell. I would go so far as to say that once you've used Quicken on these attacks you will consider it a must-have feat (if you're going to use the Ki spell abilities).

Quicken also ends up being preferable to Magical Training at L18. The trade-off is this - do you want Quickened Ki attacks plus the 5th core from Sacred Defender (25 HAMP, 10% more HPs, among other things) or GCS from Feydark? You don't have the APs to get both. I think if you're going pure it makes sense to go with Quicken but if you do want the Jedi like GCS feel that's what the bargain comes down to.

I am now interested in Cove again on my "let's see how this works as 1st life no gear except what I find" character. After skipping cove for so long, and not doing much Cannith torch challenges either, any suggestions for a good Cove guide?

Edit: going to head to 3BC to try for Tielfing Assasins' Blade or Sky Pirate's Dagger, but may hit cove for accessories or something instead. Torch running is the part I don't really want to do, will see if I can find a torch runner with an LFM.

Cove functions differently on epics vs heroics. Broadly speaking, an ideal team will have a torcher, scout/killer, two line guards, and one person in the center. Go east and check the waterfall, in epics progenitor crystal is near that, if not it's by the bowling alley (and harder to get). Getting the prog crystal on epics normally ends up in a 500-700 green dragonshards run. One item from the event worthwhile to get for Sacred Fist multi-classes is the Flotsam dagger. L4/8 has disruption and the L12 has Improved Disruption (just in time for Ravenloft). There are tons of great epic daggers now so I don't think any of the 20+ are worth it but a L4 and a L12 Flotsam are great items to pick up. Speaking of events, don't forget to pick up the Wraps of Endless Light from Night Revels coming up in October. Those wraps are excellent and I was using them in Cove and having no trouble DPSing skeleton mobs at CR24 while L17. I could also solo kill Jack Jibbers at the same difficulty level without much danger only using one Lay on Hands on myself.

i'm trying out a few things as well...because you are right about it being viable...over-all I think this fits in well with the goal of archetypes.

I agree this archetype feels rather nice. If they are going to build on this idea with other classes that will only benefit us players giving us more options. I know some have said this isn't new player friendly but I disagree, especially if you consider the new player probably isn't running anything high than R1. I know I have a tendency to measure how something performs vs pushing reaper with it, and I've done this somewhat in these notes to counter some messaging that this class can't play in reaper. And sure, does it run into some issues at R4? Yes, but that's also an indication of my character having no reaper points when starting out. Playing Crystal Cove and watching it excel having no trouble defeating epic mobs and you really begin to appreciate the defenses and overall playstyle this archetype offers. This archetype is a success and fits the niche for players who want to play a martial arts type of character without having to deal with a ton of monk finishing moves and strikes.

[dogsoldier]

Cove functions differently on epics vs heroics. Broadly speaking, an ideal team will have a torcher, scout/killer, two line guards, and one person in the center. Go east and check the waterfall, in epics progenitor crystal is near that, if not it's by the bowling alley (and harder to get). Getting the prog crystal on epics normally ends up in a 500-700 green dragonshards run. One item from the event worthwhile to get for Sacred Fist multi-classes is the Flotsam dagger. L4/8 has disruption and the L12 has Improved Disruption (just in time for Ravenloft). There are tons of great epic daggers now so I don't think any of the 20+ are worth it but a L4 and a L12 Flotsam are great items to pick up. Speaking of events, don't forget to pick up the Wraps of Endless Light from Night Revels coming up in October. Those wraps are excellent and I was using them in Cove and having no trouble DPSing skeleton mobs at CR24 while L17. I could also solo kill Jack Jibbers at the same difficulty level without much danger only using one Lay on Hands on myself.

This is good information on Cove, now how about on a Level 5 Char that wants to pickup a couple items. LFM for 3-5, or 4-6, or is it reasonable to expand that range?

[dogsoldier]

I can definitively report that Quicken enhances not only the casting speed of your two Ki spells but also streamlines the animation. What does that mean? Well, when you normally do a Ki Explosion your character goes into a sort of stance and then emits the blast. When it is Quickened, that happens so fast that there is barely any break in your attack sequence. Same thing with Ki Wave, when Quickened this functions more as an opening attack move that fits with your martial arts animations rather than a pause to cast a spell. I would go so far as to say that once you've used Quicken on these attacks you will consider it a must-have feat (if you're going to use the Ki spell abilities).

Quicken also ends up being preferable to Magical Training at L18. The trade-off is this - do you want Quickened Ki attacks plus the 5th core from Sacred Defender (25 HAMP, 10% more HPs, among other things) or GCS from Feydark? You don't have the APs to get both. I think if you're going pure it makes sense to go with Quicken but if you do want the Jedi like GCS feel that's what the bargain comes down to.

Regarding Quicken. I didn't ever actually use it other than to turn it on for those Ki spells, and then turn it back off again because I just wasn't sure how many spell points I would end up chewing up, and I had some Cure and Strike SLAs that I was using as well, so I left it off while leveling up to cap.

Something that kind of occurred to me later, but I had not actually tested at the time. At 23+ I had this ability from Primal Avatar. Now if the Ki attacks cost 10 Spell Points, but have the chance to proc 100 temp spell points, that is going to make it a no brainer to keep in on all the time. Where it would be essential is in Legendary questing, where even with maxed Concentration and good CON score, enough incoming damage and your Spells are going to get interrupted, unless they are quickened.

From T3 Primal Avatar:

Ever Green: Multiselector: +30/60/100 Maximum Spell Points. Rank 3: Your Primal Avatar Destiny Mantle now has a chance to grant 100 Temporary Spell Points for 60 seconds.

Edit: Quicken not needed in Heroics. It is good to have anyway in Epics for the healing SLAs as well, like Cacoon or Renewal, and if you can manage the SP cost, turn it on. Absolutely must have for Legendary.

[peng]

You can turn specific metamagics on or off for particular spells by right clicking the spell on your hotbar and turning some on all the time or off all the time. you could even have 2 versions of the same spell on your hotbar with different metamagics on/off.

[dogsoldier]

You can turn specific metamagics on or off for particular spells by right clicking the spell on your hotbar and turning some on all the time or off all the time. you could even have 2 versions of the same spell on your hotbar with different metamagics on/off.

Yep, but I was hitting the Ki spells enough that I think it would have burned up a bunch of my spell points. Also, it really didn't occur to me to quicken the Ki spells because I was using Greater Color Spray on Mobs, and then dumping my Ki, and at at level 26, picking up Greatest Shout. And at that point, rotation was Greatest Shout, Ki Dump, Greater Color Spray if a reaper pops then focus it, or just into the fray with melee if no reapers are present.

Edit: I was basically playing it like a Melee Hybrid, adding a Caster Hybrid layer on top of that, so I did need my spell points for destiny spell strikes that I was using as well. But that is not likely to be everyone's way of playing it, and if more traditional martial abilities were used in combo with the Ki spells, I don't think SP conservation would be a concern.

[Marshal_Lannes]

This is good information on Cove, now how about on a Level 5 Char that wants to pickup a couple items. LFM for 3-5, or 4-6, or is it reasonable to expand that range?

If you are L5 then you want to run CR10 Cove. Running 5 levels over gives you max dragonshards. So you can set your LFM however you want to bearing in mind that parameter. So if you set LFM for 4-6 then run CR11.

On Quicken and Spell Points - your Ki "spells" don't cost any spell points, they cost Ki. Adding Quicken doesn't increase their Ki cost. As far as I can tell you can use Quicken for free on them much as you can with SLAs.

[dogsoldier]

If you are L5 then you want to run CR10 Cove. Running 5 levels over gives you max dragonshards. So you can set your LFM however you want to bearing in mind that parameter. So if you set LFM for 4-6 then run CR11.

That is good to know, sounds similar to the Anniversary Party one.

On Quicken and Spell Points - your Ki "spells" don't cost any spell points, they cost Ki. Adding Quicken doesn't increase their Ki cost. As far as I can tell you can use Quicken for free on them much as you can with SLAs.

I logged on my level 32 to re-test it and make sure. It does cost spell points and Ki (at least Incinerating Wave, and Ki Explosion do), though quicken only makes it cost 10 spell points each time you cast it, so you may not really notice it unless you are casting lots of other cures or whatever. Also for my test, I right-clicked on the hotbar'd Ki spell and selected "Always Quicken". And then I turned the quicken Metamagic feat on globally, and put the Ki spell on Standard, and it takes spell points as well as Ki that way too.

I also tested Ever Green. The Ki spells do not proc the temp spell points, but that is not likely to be an issue, because any cure (Cure Mod SLA, Cacoon, Renewal) can proc that, or even your buffs can proc it. So you could get 100 temp spell points from that on a cure, and burn through it, both figuratively and literally with your Ki spells.

[dogsoldier]

As far as I can tell you can use Quicken for free on them much as you can with SLAs.

You mentioned SLA, which makes me think you might be seeing no quicken cost for stuff you are selecting from the tree, like the whirlwind attacks. That could be the difference, and that would make sense. I was thinking I could test that as well, it had not really occurred to me to see whether they could be quickened or not, I just assumed they functioned like the whirlwind attack feat, and meta's would not apply. My high level character has the spells, but not the Whirlwind stuff, my lower level character has the Exalted Whirlwind, but took Empower Healing instead of quicken as the first metamagic.

Edit: Level 11 for Incinerating Wave, if you don't have it yet, then you probably will soon. It's pretty good, and I think would combo nicely, with the Whirlwind attack mopping up what's left after you torch some mobs.

[Axcarth]

I can definitively report that Quicken enhances not only the casting speed of your two Ki spells but also streamlines the animation... I would go so far as to say that once you've used Quicken on these attacks you will consider it a must-have feat (if you're going to use the Ki spell abilities).

Thank you very much for sharing this with us community. Great job on these helpful posts!

[Marshal_Lannes]

Dogsoldier you are correct, Quicken does cost 10 SPs for Ki attacks. I realize I wasn't seeing it because I had bard buffs ticking my SP bar up constantly! But I went out without buffs and confirm that it does take 10 SPs each use. When you Quicken the Ki attack it also changes the text of the attack to indicate that it costs 10 SPs. This is not a major concern since you already have a SP pool and adding a level-appropriate Wizardry augment/item should give you more than enough SPs to support your Ki attacks. However, I could see this becoming an issue if you were (for some reason) using the Radiant tree and healing along with using Ki attacks. Then you could see your SP pool facing some stress.

[Boeregard-Sarlona]

i took child of faith or the other one in epics somewhere...didnt see anything better. dealer's choice, i like straight damage when possible.

epic feats are dealers choice, lots to choose from...i took blinding speed to stave off my haste pot addiction...had a speed item on, but the withdrawals were so strong i still needed the feat....
i took other stuff too...

Has anyone tried to see if Arcane Warrior procs on the SF SLA's or Whirlwinds? That could be a pretty cool option to get some melee power from an otherwise pretty worthless epic feat.