Please keep classic TOEE

[FuzzyDuck81]

The final Quest should not require every Node Quest be completed to enter. That is one of the parts I liked about the current version of TOEE, you didn't need to do every elemental node.

IMO if they implemented a thing like they did in isle of dread with the attunements that'd be a great middleground - have it so you can get to the zuggy fight with only 1, but if you've completed all 4 elements beforehand there are bonus chests available.

[Raithe]

Yes, TOEE is long. Yes, most players like to zerg through it, and it can be done quickly in about 30 mins. or less if you ignore the optionals. But, it also is one of the few quests that you feel like you have really accomplished something when you finish it. Instead of scrapping the whole thing for shorter quests, please do something like you have for Haunted Halls and allow players to enter the "classic" version or the "express" version. There are already tons of short and medium length quests. But TOEE and Haunted Halls are the only two quests you have that are in-depth adventures.

While I agree that being prevented (at least without XP penalty) from leaving the existing quests to sell and repair (note Part 1 has a repair vendor inside it) provides a more immersive and engaging D&D crawler experience, I think that experience is short-lived. The strength of ToEE, in my opinion, is in the random design of mob and treasure placement, which makes the quests far more replayable than the standard DDO fair. For those that prioritize this way of playing, the problem with ToEE is that you don't have enough space to hold the items you receive during the quest. I limit my characters to 2 pages of gear before entering a quest, and they always run out of inventory space (3 pages = 60 items) before either of the parts of ToEE are completed.

Breaking the quests up into smaller chunks should alleviate that problem. You can always run multiple quests at once if you aren't low on inventory space.

Note: It is technically possible to run both Part 1 and 2 currently without leaving a dungeon instance. They could easily implement the same option for the smaller chunk size.

[J1NG]

Probably would have been too much work for a quick "fix", but I would have thought that SSG would have done an Isle of Dread chain instance here and made the final part of original ToEE to be the same as the temple (last quest of the IoD chain). And each of the elemental temple + nodes was a debuff counter effect that you could apply at the start of the raid to neutralise an effect, otherwise, you need to run the raid (the fight with Zuggy) with the effects active, just like the final quest in the Isle of Dread chain, or go in with a superior group.

You would then only need to do any one of the Temple quests to gain access, but like in IoD, deactivations of the debuffs only occur once and need to be reobtained to remove the debuff/effect in the final fight (now raid). So full run would be ideal or go in with exceptional group and gear to brute force, etc.

Certainly wasn't expecting the way it was chosen to be done, but again, given the time frame and quick "fix" nature of it all, also not surprised.

J1NG

[LittleLexi]

Probably would have been too much work for a quick "fix", but I would have thought that SSG would have done an Isle of Dread chain instance here and made the final part of original ToEE to be the same as the temple (last quest of the IoD chain). And each of the elemental temple + nodes was a debuff counter effect that you could apply at the start of the raid to neutralise an effect, otherwise, you need to run the raid (the fight with Zuggy) with the effects active, just like the final quest in the Isle of Dread chain, or go in with a superior group.

You would then only need to do any one of the Temple quests to gain access, but like in IoD, deactivations of the debuffs only occur once and need to be reobtained to remove the debuff/effect in the final fight (now raid). So full run would be ideal or go in with exceptional group and gear to brute force, etc.

Certainly wasn't expecting the way it was chosen to be done, but again, given the time frame and quick "fix" nature of it all, also not surprised.

J1NG

See this is a really neat idea and compromise. Instead – most of our feedback goes nowhere, and we get shoddy updates as a result.

[DreamingReality]

See this is a really neat idea and compromise. Instead – most of our feedback goes nowhere, and we get shoddy updates as a result.

Not to mention pushing something out so quickly that it breaks most of the game and their next 5 quick fixes will have to be focused on those. It is one thing to make fast changes to bugs, for instance the door to the Gianthold slayer area, but completely revamping something old and putting in something new just because some people didn't like it the way it was and doing it overnight means you are just going to upset people. I mean consider Catacombs--when they revamped that, they DID listen to what people wanted and actually fixed it, but it took time and careful preparation. I don't think anyone complained about that "fix" even though it was different in some ways because they improved it.

[Knightrose]

I'm sad about the change as well. I think the cool thing about classic TOEE is that it felt like a D&D module or adventure. Zugg was also a unique fight. A surprise difficulty and really felt like a boss to overcome. I haven't fought the new Zugg but I'm sure it's just another HP sponge like so many 'dumbed down' bosses. Even if I'm wrong it's not the old Zugg and that's too bad. Maybe our argument is only sentimental but that should matter too. Not every inch of content in the game needs to have the same structure. I mean, that's what is cool about DDO. Or was. It seems to be getting flattened as time goes on.

[OfElectricMen]

I think the cool thing about classic TOEE is that it felt like a D&D module or adventure.

Maybe if you never actually ran through pnp ToEE (no, not even then). ToEE requires a fair bit of thinking, planning, retreating, hiding, and recovery. None of that applied in the DDO version.

[vageta311]

Maybe if you never actually ran through pnp ToEE (no, not even then). ToEE requires a fair bit of thinking, planning, retreating, hiding, and recovery. None of that applied in the DDO version.

I don't think that's the point he's making. Literally no quest that was a former pnp adventure requires planning in video game format, I believe he was meaning the grandness of it. The old TOEE was bloated, but not in a bad way. If you wanted to rush through you could, but you could also take your time and explore the temple. Even though the full quest was long, you could rush it and ignore everything else, or you could work on slayer kills, or farm named chests without even finishing the quest, etc.. Part 2 was no different. It was an extremely long quest if someone wanted to actually complete everything, but it also could be rushed by doing only the 1 required elemental node.

Now we are forced into doing everything basically, and breaking it into multiple quests makes it feel like a bunch of separate quests instead of one cohesive story that you could choose to interact with as much or as little as you liked. Yes TOEE in pnp format took an entire summer, but that's because a normal combat scenario takes 15-30 mins in pnp, whereas it takes like 15 seconds in game. Of course it feel shorter. The entire point to why TOEE was supposed to be revamped is to make it shorter... but in reality they extended the length by forcing you to do everything now.

In reality, the simplest change would have been to leave the quest as is, increase the exp to match the length of the quest. The easiest way to do that would be to make the optionals actually meaningful. This way those that just want to rush it for completion can do so, and those that want to do all the optionals are rewarded for their time. They could have made part 2 give a decent chunk of experience finishing it, but made the other 3 nodes give a much larger chunk of optional exp not just some arbitrary "545exp" or something where it's not worth you time.

Personally I hope they offer both in the future like Haunted Halls. There is room for both.

[Hafeal]

I am not a huge fan of old ToEE and don't mind the changes. I think for DDO, having content that is not getting run and taking the time to make it more enticing is good.


I wish they had taken some extra time for feedback and done more ... reminds me of my thoughts from 7 years ago ...


https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/459512-Reflections-on-Epic-ToEE?highlight=ToEE

[Oxarhamar]

I don't think that's the point he's making. Literally no quest that was a former pnp adventure requires planning in video game format, I believe he was meaning the grandness of it. The old TOEE was bloated, but not in a bad way. If you wanted to rush through you could, but you could also take your time and explore the temple. Even though the full quest was long, you could rush it and ignore everything else, or you could work on slayer kills, or farm named chests without even finishing the quest, etc.. Part 2 was no different. It was an extremely long quest if someone wanted to actually complete everything, but it also could be rushed by doing only the 1 required elemental node.

Now we are forced into doing everything basically, and breaking it into multiple quests makes it feel like a bunch of separate quests instead of one cohesive story that you could choose to interact with as much or as little as you liked. Yes TOEE in pnp format took an entire summer, but that's because a normal combat scenario takes 15-30 mins in pnp, whereas it takes like 15 seconds in game. Of course it feel shorter. The entire point to why TOEE was supposed to be revamped is to make it shorter... but in reality they extended the length by forcing you to do everything now.

In reality, the simplest change would have been to leave the quest as is, increase the exp to match the length of the quest. The easiest way to do that would be to make the optionals actually meaningful. This way those that just want to rush it for completion can do so, and those that want to do all the optionals are rewarded for their time. They could have made part 2 give a decent chunk of experience finishing it, but made the other 3 nodes give a much larger chunk of optional exp not just some arbitrary "545exp" or something where it's not worth you time.

Personally I hope they offer both in the future like Haunted Halls. There is room for both.

I don’t think that breaking it down makes the story less cohesive it feels more like any other DDO chain now multiple quests with a story throughout

[SoVeryBelgian]

If I could restructure ToEE

Quest 1 - Part 1 (Old).

Quest 2, 3, 4, 5 - Elemental Nodes (Expand on these).

Quest 6 - VS Zuggtmoy.


I wasn't a fan of the elemental node search. And the respawning mooks. It was always hard finding a group for it. I feel the maps need a lift too.