Update 56 Preview 3: Dark Apostate Archetype

[Xezom]

Nope, base spells too!

Oh wow. Alright, I'll admit that was not the method I would've even imagined using to give the tree more punch in it's lunch but that's a creative way of doing it. Tossing around Maximized and Empowered Spellbook version of those debuffs would get expensive to do long term, but it's really nice to have as an option for tougher encounters, especially since they no longer share a CD with the SLA. Also makes it clear that you should be taking Max/Emp/Intense. I would go so far as to argue that it might even need to be watched for being overtuned on the proc. I think because of the SP cost for non SLA in addition to the CD for the SLA that there will be enough downtime to not tip into that range, but at the same time 2d6 every caster level (not sure what the MCL for the effect is, 25?) on a no save Meta-able damage effect is pretty potent.

Only thing I would note is maybe add a class feat, a note in the Core points in the enhancement tree, something in the description of the SLA's, or attached to Pray for Mercy that notes that the spells Bane/Prayer/Bestow Curse/etc can accept damaging Metamagics since that is most definitely a quirky addition that you would never guess on your own.

Seems like a simple change but I can see it having a great impact on making this tree much more viable. When I say simple i mean simple on the surface. I'm sure the coding for that is a royal nightmare.

[Lynnabel]

When I say simple i mean simple on the surface. I'm sure the coding for that is a royal nightmare.

This sort of change is why the Archetype framework is so important. If this were a universal tree we couldn't do this. But since they have their own spellbook, we can.

[Xezom]

This sort of change is why the Archetype framework is so important. If this were a universal tree we couldn't do this. But since they have their own spellbook, we can.

Now see that's really cool and something I would've never even thought of as a perk of Archtypes. I was looking forward to Archtypes cause of the new style they brought but knowing that there's cool stuff like that that can be done makes it seem like the possibilities are virtually limitless. Bravo(a)!

In the case of Spellbooks having quirks like that that I'm sure effect the entire Archtypes spellbook, not just the DA tree, I would definitely recommend adding some feat/note/class feat that notes it. Yeah it'll mostly only be relevant to the DA tree, since it's the only one who is really going to use those spells offensively, but you never know. There might be some weird build come up down the road that uses damage on proc effects like that.


Also out of curiosity, adding things like that won't cause other on cast procs like Lantern ring to get the meta-magic effects? I think that'd be going a tad too far.

[lain5246]

Quick Wednesday update: I've figured out how to get Dark Apostate-specific variants of Prayer, Bless, Bane, and Bestow Curse to accept appropriate damaging metamagics without propagating them to other spellbooks.

What are the chances of getting an negative healing aura similar to healing aura?

[Duno001]

Hi everyone!

1- I haven't seen it in this third preview:
shadow form incorporality and concealment still do not stack with other sources (tested both with new toee loot, and the elf fey energy tap incorpo)

2- The melee critical curse does not increase "pray for mercy" damage, is this wai?
On a side note preview 3 note states t5 for the on crit curse, and in game the tooltip give it on t4.

3- Dark judgement (T4) temporary hitpoints on turn use:
I am supposed to have five dice of imbue, tier 1 to 4 apostate curse upgrades, and the third core.
However in only get 40 temporary hitpoints.
mmmh... reread the description , it says "bonus dice" ... so total -1
should be wai then , but why only "bonus" dice?

4- Related to dark judgement, i multiclassed in paladin sacred fist for acces to radiant servant tree. (i shouldn't be able to, that's weird)
The RS t1 bliss (temp hp on turn use) does not stack with it, in fact it isn't even mentionned in combat log (as in: do not proc).
On the the same topic, for bliss or dark judgement, and the sacred defender third core divine righteousness:
divine righteousness stacks with the other two, but it needs two consecutive turns.

5- Not totally on topic: the radiant servant (sacred fist) t5 "divine energy resistance" use cleric levels.
It give the right bonuses for 8 minures on my DA8/SF6 character.
On a fighter2/SF12, it does consume the 75 spell points but do not give any benefit: "your divine energy resistance has been removed from you".
I guess he is a level 0 cleric and get a 0 minute buff.

6- This is a melee proc, no save effects tree.
I would apreciate the option to choose between strength and wisdom (at t3, t4 and capstone) since it no longer offer wisdom to hit and damage.


It's my first post, not my native language, there may be errors: sorry for that.
And i want to thank you all for all those years of play.

And now i'm looking for how to post it... praying for not doing some mistake...

[Karthunk]

What are the chances of getting an negative healing aura similar to healing aura?

The problem with this is that the tree doesn't have a way to stop healing undead npcs. I don't think there is a negative aura in the game that doesn't also hit npcs?

[Lynnabel]

Hi everyone!

1- I haven't seen it in this third preview:
shadow form incorporality and concealment still do not stack with other sources (tested both with new toee loot, and the elf fey energy tap incorpo)

2- The melee critical curse does not increase "pray for mercy" damage, is this wai?
On a side note preview 3 note states t5 for the on crit curse, and in game the tooltip give it on t4.

3- Dark judgement (T4) temporary hitpoints on turn use:
I am supposed to have five dice of imbue, tier 1 to 4 apostate curse upgrades, and the third core.
However in only get 40 temporary hitpoints.
mmmh... reread the description , it says "bonus dice" ... so total -1
should be wai then , but why only "bonus" dice?

4- Related to dark judgement, i multiclassed in paladin sacred fist for acces to radiant servant tree. (i shouldn't be able to, that's weird)
The RS t1 bliss (temp hp on turn use) does not stack with it, in fact it isn't even mentionned in combat log (as in: do not proc).
On the the same topic, for bliss or dark judgement, and the sacred defender third core divine righteousness:
divine righteousness stacks with the other two, but it needs two consecutive turns.

5- Not totally on topic: the radiant servant (sacred fist) t5 "divine energy resistance" use cleric levels.
It give the right bonuses for 8 minures on my DA8/SF6 character.
On a fighter2/SF12, it does consume the 75 spell points but do not give any benefit: "your divine energy resistance has been removed from you".
I guess he is a level 0 cleric and get a 0 minute buff.

6- This is a melee proc, no save effects tree.
I would apreciate the option to choose between strength and wisdom (at t3, t4 and capstone) since it no longer offer wisdom to hit and damage.


It's my first post, not my native language, there may be errors: sorry for that.
And i want to thank you all for all those years of play.

And now i'm looking for how to post it... praying for not doing some mistake...

This is great, thank you.

1: I've just gotten the concealment to stack properly but the incorp is giving me trouble. It looks like all sources of Incorp currently do not stack correctly.

2: Great catch, it was using the wrong curse effect.

3: I've just changed it to use total dice.

4: I will antirequisite the first cores of both trees, you're right that it shouldn't be possible to take both.

5: Great catch, have fixed this.

Thank you!! <3

[Archfae]

Quick Wednesday update: I've figured out how to get Dark Apostate-specific variants of Prayer, Bless, Bane, and Bestow Curse to accept appropriate damaging metamagics without propagating them to other spellbooks.

This is a good change, but it doesn't really fix the identity crisis this tree has.

If you are content to just go evil damage doer then you have a lot of work to do to make that functional. Additionally, we still have the same problem where a lot of light/good spells are just better supported. I'm going to suggest a unholy wrath variant of divine wrath be added with a shared cooldown with divine wrath to the spellbook options in level 9 spells. Or possibly an sla in this tree.

All that being said, I'd still much prefer a debuff focused playstyle rather than version 40 of the damage caster playstyle.

Also, with the stack nature of concealment, is the intent that this tree + shadowdancer mantle + displace clickies would allow you to get to 100% concealment value? If that's the case, there's a lot of defensive value there (though not quite what feydark shadowdancer illusionist builds achieve). But somehow I don't think this was intended.

[Xezom]

This is a good change, but it doesn't really fix the identity crisis this tree has.

If you are content to just go evil damage doer then you have a lot of work to do to make that functional. Additionally, we still have the same problem where a lot of light/good spells are just better supported. I'm going to suggest a unholy wrath variant of divine wrath be added with a shared cooldown with divine wrath to the spellbook options in level 9 spells. Or possibly an sla in this tree.

All that being said, I'd still much prefer a debuff focused playstyle rather than version 40 of the damage caster playstyle.

Also, with the stack nature of concealment, is the intent that this tree + shadowdancer mantle + displace clickies would allow you to get to 100% concealment value? If that's the case, there's a lot of defensive value there (though not quite what feydark shadowdancer illusionist builds achieve). But somehow I don't think this was intended.

I'll definitely echo that I would have loved to seen this tree go the route of a debuffer, but I'll also say that it will also be a lot nicer that it will have some much needed extra fire power. I'm still a little lost on what Domain to take cause Death domain for Curse + Destruction Spam is just really good once your curse can't fail, but with the primary power of the tree now coming from Evil damage it makes taking Sun, or to a lesser extent, Good options as well simply for the extra radiance power (and heal on the Good domain, and light SLA's on the Sun). It just feels wrong to take Sun/Good on a Evil based character. Since the consealment was working this round, I even did a round of Luck Domain for the Displacement SLA, moderate Spell DC, and enhanced saves (actually did a lot better than I thought it would).

If it's not this tree, I hope to see a full dedicated debuffer Archtype somewhere in the near future (though I do really like the aesthetic and theme of this one for a debuffing character). As it is Warlocks have some of the best debuffing abilties in their enhancements, but I would argue that by default Clerics/FS spellbooks are the most debuff loaded. However, knowing what I know now about how Funky the devs can get when it comes to the spellbooks with these Archtypes, I'd also say that thematically a Warlock could also easily fit the bill as a debuffer by switching the Soul Eater tree which is based around Eldrich blast + Consume + Stricken, and replacing it with a true casters Warlock that slings debuff SLAs that are added to the Warlock Spellbook from other classes with a few unique ones to boot. Heck at this point I'm sure they could even do some cool stuff with replacing some eldrich blast mechanics for debuff slinging/power draining.

The Debuffer fantasy lives on, I just don't think it's going to be realized in this tree. I'm at least glad to see that the tree is getting some oomph in a way that's tied to it's most unique ability even if it's not necessarily what I'd originally hoped for.

[Shedrakzo]

Got some more DA feedback, though I wrote quite a bit more than I realized.

Previously, when I suggested putting Apostate Curse dice in the cores, I meant die increases similar to the later EK cores, not actually spreading what dice existed into the cores. But that’s still fine; is there a chance we can see the cores increase the base die to 1d8 and potentially 1d10?

As it stands with the changes in Preview 3, the Apostate Curse die will end up at 10d6 theoretical maximum, requiring the player to spend at least 41 points in DA and taking their level 31 feat slot. Compared to the EK dice of: 7d12 base die for 41 points in EK, with a theoretical maximum of 12d12 base (augment, feat, and destiny) and 16d12 for 30 seconds during Eldritch Power.

Admittedly the Evil Damage from Apostate’s Curse is less resisted, but it’s also looking at half the damage of the EK imbue. Allowing it to scale to 1d10 maximum maintains that EK deals more damage when not resisted, but also rewards higher investment in Dark Apostate. So probably just put the die increases in, like, core 12, 18, or 20.

But I have another idea for adding a bit more damage to the Apostate’s Curse line without touching the damage die, as well supporting the general consensus of people wanting to play more with a curse/debuff line. The game already supports it, it just need to be added to the imbue.

So my first suggestion: For the T2 Enhanced Curse, add the Cursespewing effect to any weapon you equip. (Bonus points if the damage here could be changed to Bane damage and scales with Force spellpower. I’m talking both the item effect and the enhancement.)

My second suggestion for this boosted Curse line is to add Improved Cursespewing (again with scaling, please?) at T4 Enhanced Curse.

Together these create a stacking -8 debuff, and can stack with the actual curse effects elsewhere in the tree.

To balance this, the T5 Ultimate Heresy drops applying curse on hit. Instead, it applies Improved Quelling Strikes to your equipped weapon. This feels like a much more thematically appropriate effect and has synergy with certain 'evil/cursed' items in the game. Which means on a vorpal at level 12, you'd apply a set of debuffs resulting in -8 saves, attack, and damage for enemies. As well as potentially preventing enemies from casting divine spells.

To further emphasis this focus on cursing, hexing, debuffing, let’s see what low hanging fruit we can add to the tree:
My next suggestion would be to add Roar and Roaring (the ‘guard’ and ‘attack’ procs) at core 6 or 12. -2 saves that’ll stack with curse and improved cursespewing, not super powerful and the debuff doesn’t last more than a few seconds even in non-reaper but it can add up over time.

Now for a unique capstone. My suggestion here is to give Dark Apostate a player version of the Mummy Despair aura. Give it a DC (instead of being completely blocked by fear immunity) and I think this would be a great defining ability.


Now, let’s talk about the caster side of the tree. My idea would be to make the ‘left’ side of the Tiers a caster tree, and the right the melee, with utility in the middle for everyone. To that end, I don’t want to tread on the current SLA options. I would start by combining Traditional Caster and Apostate’s Skills into a singular enhancement. This sort of enhances the value of either one and changes them from being an AP sink.

Now that we’ve got a new T1 slot available, let’s throw in a multiselector SLA choice. I suggest Darkfire (wisdom based), Ghoul Touch, or Chill Touch as the 3 options available at this tier:

• Darkfire is the pure damage option. I’d love to see this grant a bonus to drow, either as a separate SLA cooldown or perhaps causing Darkfire to deal double damage or firing two rays.
• Ghoul Touch is a pretty underutilized CC ability across the game as a whole. Here it provides a solid way to CC any living creature. Though maybe the spell could use a tweak to its range.
• Chill Touch is the middle option. it deals negative energy damage to mobs and CCs undead. This was a good ability in the original Dark Disciple and definitely should have remained.

For T2 I don’t want to introduce a new SLA to this line. Instead I’d add an attached enhancement for spellpower; either evil/light or negative.

T3 and time for a new multi selector: Poison, Lesser Death Aura, or Necrotic Bolt.

• Poison for the debuffers
• LDA for those who want the sustain
• Necrotic Bolt for those who are focusing on negative damage.

T4 either spellpower again or some form of Negative Immunity stripping like Unholy Avatar.

T5 is where things can get spicy with the SLAs: Moonburst, Negative Energy Burst, or Enervation.

• Moonburst, being a variant of Sunburst, deals both evil and negative damage instead of light. As a trade off, this loses the ability to instakill undead. Perhaps it panics them similar to Chill Touch.
• NEB is NEB. We all loved it in the original Dark Disciple for a reason. It’s a nice nuke when in SLA format and certainly makes a nice heal button while you’re undead as well. But don’t forget that the Dark Disciple version of this spell could cast on enemies instead of being centered on the player 24/7, which was part of the uniqueness.
• Enervation appeals to those wanting to debuff and with the recent changes applies a negative DoT.

Another solid option for this tree would be a mirror opposite of the Positive Energy Burst channel divinity from Radiant Savant. A negative version that also uses turn charges and applies similar restore abilities (opposed to normal NEB) could be interesting. It means you can still restore normal allies, deal damage with your burst, and provide the temp HP now in the tree. And heal undead.

One last thing to discuss is the Incorporeality/Concealment of the DA form. It keeps being brought up that it is intended to be stacking with items. Is this also intended to stack with Shadowform from Shadowdancer? This would create a unique synergy and certainly be thematic, which I hope is the intent.

[SpardaX]

[*]Return to Dusk: While you are in any Undead form, when you are knocked unconscious, you dissolve into shadows, granting you Invisibility and Displacement. After 5 seconds, your body reforms, and you are healed for 1d6 Negative Energy per Character Level. This may only happen once every 3 minutes.

Hey quick question if I can

Does this benefit from negative spell power?

[LittleLexi]

All that being said, I'd still much prefer a debuff focused playstyle rather than version 40 of the damage caster playstyle.

So much this. We have plenty of nuking. But there is a real void in the realm of debuffing. I thought this tree would fulfill that somewhat. It's not really doing it. And there is so much potential too!

Even the Undead shroud could be much more interesting. Give us different forms like:

-Mummy Lord(Curse focused. Fear-based effects. +MRR)
-Wight Priest(Chant focused. Only form allowed to use light/cure spells)
-Vengeful Spectre(Incorporeality. Stat drain. Moves through enemies and debuffs them in the process. Raises slain enemies as short-living spectre allies)
-Vampire Ritualist(Vampirism. Blood Tribute. Dark Discorporation. Dominate. +PRR)

These would all work with the Divine theme and could give us a lot more options.

[Claver]

Possible Bug


The various inflict wounds, mass spells DO NOT trigger Shirardi effects. They don't seem to count as an offensive spell. I only tested on a Dark Apostate/Apothecary mix


By comparison, Apothecary Inflict wounds Admixture SLAs and Spells trigger Shirardi effects (Prism, Stay Strong, Double Rainbow) both on Live and on Lamannia

[SpardaX]

What Alignment will a Dark Apostate be starting as or Restricted to? Would you allow this Archetype to actually be Evil Aligned?

This was answered in a previous preview, that no, evil will never come to DDO. DA has no alignment restriction, just like regular cleric.

[SpardaX]

Long story short: the tree doesnt do anything that would make a Cleric want to be one, it defines no unique playstyle that scales well enough to be viable

Let me start by saying, this tree is obviously not a casting focused tree.

Now let me focus on what I've highlighted.

I dunno man, I'm personally itching to get this on my HC character. It should increased my survivability dramatically. To the point that Iv remade what was going to be a 13 Cleric / 6 Barbarian / 1 Rogue build, to an 18 DA Cleric/1/1, currently level 6, sitting there semi-patiently with my free new toon heart of wood. I can't wait.

[Pretty_Good_Old_One]

Hi,
not sure if this has been mentioned before:

Cursed words seems to be doing less than damage than described against undead. My character has 3 levels of Dark Apostate, and has taken Apostate's Curse and Enhanced Curse 1&2. I am seeing around 3 dice of extra evil damage on melee (a little high, but I am assuming that is because I have some light spellpower). I tested Cursed Words in Saltmarsh, and I was consistently getting 30-45 damage against skeletons there.

With the 3 cursed dice, I would have expected 3*(6d6) - average 63 damage. What I am seeing looks closer to 2*(6d6) damage. Is it possible this has the same issue that the temporary hitpoints do?

One other minor issue: the weapon details in inventory list all the specials for the different levels of Apostate's Curse, but it only lists 1d6 extra damage. The weapon appears to be doing 3d6 extra damage - so it works, just the weapon description is not listing the enhanced curse extra dice.

Thanks for all the work on this. This has been a fun class to try out.

[Lynnabel]

Hi,
not sure if this has been mentioned before:

Cursed words seems to be doing less than damage than described against undead. My character has 3 levels of Dark Apostate, and has taken Apostate's Curse and Enhanced Curse 1&2. I am seeing around 3 dice of extra evil damage on melee (a little high, but I am assuming that is because I have some light spellpower). I tested Cursed Words in Saltmarsh, and I was consistently getting 30-45 damage against skeletons there.

With the 3 cursed dice, I would have expected 3*(6d6) - average 63 damage. What I am seeing looks closer to 2*(6d6) damage. Is it possible this has the same issue that the temporary hitpoints do?

One other minor issue: the weapon details in inventory list all the specials for the different levels of Apostate's Curse, but it only lists 1d6 extra damage. The weapon appears to be doing 3d6 extra damage - so it works, just the weapon description is not listing the enhanced curse extra dice.

Thanks for all the work on this. This has been a fun class to try out.

It is indeed the same issue (and therefore all fixed)! Glad you're having fun trying out Dark Apostate :)

[QuantumFX]

So, Lynn I've been trying out the new Divine Disciple o a regular cleric and I have to ask: Do I really have to trade the capstone for Word of Balance? That seems like a trap.

[arklemighty]

I have been trying to find out if cleric and DA PL bonuses will stack - i.e. if i have 3 cleric PLs (+3 conjuration DCs) but then get 3 DA PLs (+15 neg amp and spell power), do i get all these bonuses?

And of course likewise for the other archetypes.

Thanks

[Wongar]

In order to take the "Domain Smiting" line you have to take both Light and Dark cores. This results in you NOT BEING ABLE TO GET GET THE DD CAPSTONE.

You have removed all the "Spellpower: Universal" enhancements which is a reduction in 36 universal spell power.

I don't understand the reasoning for the convoluted cores going from both left to right and right to left. Is not the whole idea behind archtypes to allow you do so wired "funky fresh" stuff without having to cram it into the standard enhancement trees in a non-standard, non-intuitive way that punishes existing builds?