Update 56 Preview 3: Dark Apostate Archetype

[Lynnabel]

Howdy all! Please be sure to check out both the Producer's Letter and the Archetype Overview page before diving in here

Dark Apostate is a Cleric Archetype.

Spells/Feats/Class Features

Instead of automatically preparing Cure Wounds spells, Dark Apostates automatically prepare the Inflict Wounds spells.

Past Life: Dark Apostate: +5 Negative Healing Amplification and +5 Negative Spell Power (stacks 3 times)

New Tree: Dark Apostate
Replaces Radiant Servant

Themes: Dark healing, evil magic, negative damage, undead control and destruction

Summary: Shroud yourself in shadow as a master of darkness and negative energy magic.

Tree:

• Core 1: Dark Apostate Each core in this tree including this one grants you +5 Negative and Alignment Spellpower and +5 Negative Healing Amplification.
• Core 3: Shadow Shrouding: Toggle: Shroud yourself in Necromantic Energies and assume the form of a Shadow. While in Shadow form, you are considered an Undead, gain a base 100% Fortification, and may heal from Negative Energies. This healing comes at a cost - Undead naturally only take 50% healing from Positive Energy and take 100% more damage from Light. You gain +2 Wisdom and +2 Constitution, as well as +5% Incorporeality and Concealment as your form is partially obscured and intangible. This is a Major Form.
• Core 6: Enhanced Shadowform I: Your Shadow Shrouding gains an additional +5% Incorporeality and Concealment (for a total of 10% each). Your Apostate's Curse gains 1 additional damage dice.
• Core 12: Enhanced Shadowform II: Your Shadow Shrouding gains an additional +5% Incorporeality and Concealment (for a total of 15% each). Your Bestow Curse, Doom, and Bane spells no longer have a saving throw.
• Core 18: Enhanced Shadowform III: Your Shadow Shrouding gains an additional +5% Incorporeality and Concealment (for a total of 20% each). You also passively gain +1 Necromancy DC, and your Apostate's Curse gains 1 additional damage dice.
• Core 20: Master of Shadows: Your Shadow Shrouding gains an additional +5% Incorporeality and Concealment (for a total of 25% each). You also passively gain +4 Wisdom, and your Apostate's Curse gains 1 additional damage dice.

Tier 1:

• SLA: Bane
• Apostate's Skills: +1/2/3 Heal, Hide, and Bluff. Rank 3: +1 Will saving throw
• Shadowy Bulwark: +5/10/15 HP
• Apostate's Curse: Toggle: Your Favored Weapons channel the dark energies within you, twisting them into evil versions of themselves - they deal an additional 1d6 Evil Damage on hit (scaling with 100% spellpower).
• Traditionalist Caster: +3/6/10 Universal Spell Power when wielding an Orb or Staff.

Tier 2:

• SLA: Prayer
• Mighty Turning: When you successfully Turn Undead, the Undead are now destroyed.
• Enhanced Turning: +2/4/6 Turn Undead charges.
• Enhanced Curse I: (req Apostate's Curse) Your Apostate's Curse gains 1 additional damage dice, and grants your Favored Weapons Ghost Touch.
• Dark Rewards: When you critically hit with a Negative or Alignment spell, you gain 3/6/10 Sacred Temporary SP that last for 1 minute.

Tier 3:

• Pray for Mercy: Your Prayer-like spells (Bless, Bane, Prayer) now resonate with Evil energies, dealing 1d6 Evil damage per Caster Level to all enemies. This damage is doubled against enemies that are Cursed.
• Endless Turning: Turn Undead uses regenerate at a rate of one every 120 seconds, or 10%/20%/30% faster if it already regenerates.
• Cursed Words: SLA for Bestow Curse. This costs 0 Spellpoints to activate. Bestow Curse now deals 6d6 Bane damage to Undead per Dark Apostate Dice.
• Enhanced Curse II: (req Enhanced Curse I) Your Apostate's Curse gains 1 additional damage dice. Favored Weapons are now an Implement in your hands.
• +1 Wisdom

Tier 4:

• Blessings of the Shadows: You gain +50/100/150 Incapacitation Range
• Return to Dusk: While you are in any Undead form, when you are knocked unconscious, you dissolve into shadows, granting you Invisibility and Displacement. After 5 seconds, your body reforms, and you are healed for 1d6 Negative Energy per Character Level. This may only happen once every 3 minutes.
• Dark Judgement: When you use Turn Undead, you and allies near you gain +3/6/10 Temporary HP per Apostate's Curse bonus dice.
• Enhanced Curse III: (req Enhanced Curse II) Your Apostate's Curse gains 1 additional damage dice.
• +1 Wisdom

Tier 5:

• Benediction: Harm now scales with 2x Spellpower and may now kill enemies.
• Ward of Shadow: Wards all nearby allies against all four alignments and light. This is Protection from Elements but for Law, Chaos, Evil, Good, and Light damage.
• Necromantic Devotion: +1 DCs with Necromancy spells.
• Ultimate Heresy: (req Enhanced Curse III) Your Apostate's Curse gains 2 additional damage dice. On crit, you apply 1d3 stacks of Vulnerability and apply the effects of the Curse spell.
• Shadows of Death: You gain +5% Negative and Alignment Spell Critical Chance

Note that this tree releases alongside the revamped Divine Disciple tree, see below!

Bugs fixed since last Lamannia:

• inflict mass spells may now heal the caster (for real this time)
• Harm works with Benediction
• dark apostate cores now buff the shadowform properly
• protection from alignment effects now have better icons and descriptions
• Dark Apostate now has its proper icons
• Return to Dusk no longer damages you if you are not Undead
• harm now benefits from empower heal metamagic
• SLAs no longer share cooldowns with the base spell
• Dark Apostate dice are now in the Epic Elemental Dice feat

[Lynnabel]

This tree has very strange core abilities. It will not make sense unless you look at it in-game.

Core A: Multiselector:

• Emissary of Light: Req Cleric 1, antireq Emissary of Darkness: You have chosen Light as your path. For each Core Ability you take in this tree, you gain +5 Light and +5 Universal Spellpower.
• Emissary of Darkness: Req Cleric 1, antireq Emissary of Light: You have chosen Darkness as your path. For each Core Ability you take in this tree, you gain +5 Negative and +5 Universal spellpower.

Core B: Multiselector:

• Aspect of the Sun: Req Cleric 3: You gain +2 to all Saving Throws and +3 PRR.
• Empowered by the Darkness: Req Cleric 3: You gain +2 to all Saving Throws and +3 MRR.

Core C: Multiselector:

• Light Spellbook I: Req Cleric 6: Your Cleric spellbook gains Sunbolt as a Level 3 spell.
• Dark Spellbook I: Req Cleric 6: Your Cleric spellbook gains Enervation as a Level 3 spell.

Core D: Multiselector:

• Light Spellbook II: Req Cleric 12: Your Cleric spellbook gains Sunbeam as a Level 6 spell.
• Dark Spellbook II: Req Cleric 12: Your Cleric spellbook gains Necrotic Ray as a Level 6 spell.

Core E: Multiselector:

• Light Spellbook III: Req Cleric 18: Your Cleric spellbook gains Sunburst as a Level 8 spell. You gain +1 caster level and max caster level with Light/Alignment spells.
• Dark Spellbook III: Req Cleric 18: Your Cleric spellbook gains Power Word: Stun as a Level 8 spell. You gain +1 caster level and max caster level with Negative Energy spells.

Core F: Multiselector:

• Priest of Endless Light: Req Cleric 20 and Emissary of Light: Your mastery over Light has granted you impossible power. +4 Wisdom, +2 to all Saving Throws, and +10 Light/Alignment spellpower and positive healing amp. You gain +1 caster level and max caster level with Light/Alignment spells and +1 evocation DCs.
• Deacon of Endless Darkness: Req Cleric 20 and Emissary of Darkness: Your mastery over Darkness has granted you impossible power. +4 Wisdom, +2 to all Saving Throws, and +10 Negative spellpower and negative healing amp. You gain +1 caster level and max caster level with Negative Energy spells and +1 necromancy DCs.

Tier 1:

• Nimbus of Light vs Inflict Light Wounds SLA
• Defense of the Heart: +2/4/6 PRR
• Multiselector:
  
  • Divine Smiting I: +2% Light, Negative, and Alignment Spell Critical Chance
  • Domain Smiting 1: +2% Fire, Cold, Acid, Electric, and Force Spell Critical Chance (requires both Light and Dark Core 1) (yes, both light and dark cores... this tree is funky fresh)
• Defense of the Soul: +2/4/6 MRR
• Spell Points: +30/60/100 Maximum Spell Points

Tier 2:

• Spell Penetration: +1/2/3 Spell Penetration
• Improved Metamagic: Empower/Enlarge/Maximize/Quicken
• Multiselector:
  
  • Divine Smiting II: +2% Light, Negative, and Alignment Spell Critical Chance
  • Domain Smiting II: +2% Fire, Cold, Acid, Electric, and Force Spell Critical Chance (requires both Light and Dark Core 1)
• Shield of Dusk and Dawn: When struck, attackers are dealt 1/2/3d6 Light and Negative damage, scaling with your spellpower. Rank 3: When enemies critically hit you, they are Blinded for 2 seconds with no save.
• Light and Dark: Whenever you cast a Light, Alignment or Negative spell, you gain +3 to your Negative, Light, and Alignment Spell Power for 6 seconds. This stacks up to 3/6/10 times.

Tier 3:

• Necrotic Bolt vs Searing Light
• Improved Metamagic: Empower/Enlarge/Maximize/Quicken
• Multiselector:
  
  • Divine Smiting III: +2% Light, Negative, and Alignment Spell Critical Chance
  • Domain Smiting III: +2% Fire, Cold, Acid, Electric, and Force Spell Critical Chance (requires both Light and Dark Core 1)
• Multiselector:
  
  • Disciple of Dusk: You gain +5/10/15 Negative Healing Amplification. Rank 3: +5 Negative Spellpower
  • Disciple of Dawn: You gain +5/10/15 Positive Healing Amplification. Rank 3: +5 Light and Alignment Spellpower
• +1 Wisdom

Tier 4:

• Order's Wrath vs Holy Smite vs Chaos Hammer vs Unholy Blight SLA
• Improved Metamagic: Heighten
• Multiselector:
  
  • Divine Smiting IV: +2% Light, Negative, and Alignment Spell Critical Chance
  • Domain Smiting IV: +2% Fire, Cold, Acid, Electric, and Force Spell Critical Chance (requires both Light and Dark Core 1)
• Multiselector: (select what you did not select in Tier 3)
  
  • Disciple of Dusk: You gain +5/10/15 Negative Healing Amplification. Rank 3: +5 Negative Spellpower
  • Disciple of Dawn: You gain +5/10/15 Positive Healing Amplification. Rank 3: +5 Light and Alignment Spellpower
• +1 Wisdom

Tier 5:

• Multiselector:
  
  • Holy Power (req only Light cores): Your Holy Smite spell now deals full damage to all enemies, regardless of alignment.
  • Unholy Power (req only Dark cores): Your Unholy Blight spell now deals full damage to all enemies, regardless of alignment.
  • Balance of Power (req both Light and Dark cores): Your Chaos Hammer and Order's Wrath spells now deal full damage to all enemies, regardless of alignment.
• Multiselector:
  
  • Transcend Light: Req having only Emissary of Light cores. You now gain the Spellbook spells of the Path of Darkness.
  • Transcend Darkness: Req having only Emissary of Darkness cores: You now gain the Spellbook spells of the Path of Light.
  • Bring Balance: req having both Light and Dark cores: The Word of Balance spell is added to your Spellbook at level 7. (yes, both light and dark cores... this tree is funky fresh)
• Multiselector:
  
  • Divine Smiting V: +2% Light, Negative, and Alignment Spell Critical Chance
  • Domain Smiting V: +2% Fire, Cold, Acid, Electric, and Force Spell Critical Chance (requires both Light and Dark Core 1)
• Multiselector:
  
  • Condemnation: +5% Light, Negative, and Alignment Spell Critical Damage
  • Acceptance: +5% Fire, Cold, Acid, Electric, and Force Spell Critical Damage, +2 Caster level and Max Caster Level with those spell elements[/COLOR]
• Divine Empowerment: +1 DCs with Evocation and Necromancy spells

Bugfixes since last Lamannia:

• Fixed a variety of prereq and minimum level issues
• Inflict Light Wounds SLA now has a proper spell point cost and cooldown

[Archfae]

A bit disappointed that this is how the tree still looks at preview 3. I don't know how much room there is for changes because usually you guys dont do a preview 4.

But I'm fairly certain that all my feedback from playing and testing on preview 2 is mostly relevant. Sure the healing is fixed, but ultimately this tree still lacks identity.

* The dark apostate dice are still meaningless to casters because they only deal damage to undead for us. If I'm fighting undead, I've got other spells and resources than to use a single target curse spell.
* The capstone and T5s are still super underwhelmingly.
* I still see no reason to use shadow form, even if it looks aesthetically awesome. Clerics already can heal themselves, so undead form is actually a nerf rather than a buff by itself. Sure +2 wisdom, incorp/concealment that's likely nonstacking, is not enough justification for going neg spec healing rather than positive - this is especially true when in any raid environment your role is going to be a healer due to no meaningful boss dps, tanking ability, or other boss interactions. Also keep in mind that shadow form precludes taking another form ability (e.g. aasimar hp).
* When thinking about this tree's identity, dark priest screams out to me that it'd be something debuff oriented, evil oriented, or death oriented. Yet there's very little here for death spells. Very little here for evil casters (still have the weird situation where holy smite is best spell to use alignment wise even on a dark priest character). And while there's some good initial start to debuffs, there's no follow through. Both flavor wise and power wise it's still significantly underserving what it needs to.

My plea is once again to go the debuff route because it's almost there, and it would require probably the least amount of changes to make into a functional and flavorful tree. It's also one of the niches ddo just kinda lacks - usually the "debuff" trees have 1-2 debuffs that are worthwhile and then a pile of other things that make them good dps where the debuffs come second (e.g. shintao, soul eater, etc.). Tying some really unique and cool debuff abilities with the right power budget into the capstone and a t5 that require shadow form, would be the way I'd go personally. Something to give a debuff to trash in aoe - i still like something that turns bestow curse into an aoe spell of some sort. Something to give a debuff or set of debuffs to a boss would be great as well.

Ill definitely log on and try this version of the class again, but I really dont think the few bug fixes are going to change the applicability of the feedback above that's based on lamm round 2.

[Nugaot]

A bit disappointed that this is how the tree still looks at preview 3. I don't know how much room there is for changes because usually you guys dont do a preview 4.

But I'm fairly certain that all my feedback from playing and testing on preview 2 is mostly relevant. Sure the healing is fixed, but ultimately this tree still lacks identity.

* The dark apostate dice are still meaningless to casters because they only deal damage to undead for us. If I'm fighting undead, I've got other spells and resources than to use a single target curse spell.
* The capstone and T5s are still super underwhelmingly.
* I still see no reason to use shadow form, even if it looks aesthetically awesome. Clerics already can heal themselves, so undead form is actually a nerf rather than a buff by itself. Sure +2 wisdom, incorp/concealment that's likely nonstacking, is not enough justification for going neg spec healing rather than positive - this is especially true when in any raid environment your role is going to be a healer due to no meaningful boss dps, tanking ability, or other boss interactions. Also keep in mind that shadow form precludes taking another form ability (e.g. aasimar hp).
* When thinking about this tree's identity, dark priest screams out to me that it'd be something debuff oriented, evil oriented, or death oriented. Yet there's very little here for death spells. Very little here for evil casters (still have the weird situation where holy smite is best spell to use alignment wise even on a dark priest character). And while there's some good initial start to debuffs, there's no follow through. Both flavor wise and power wise it's still significantly underserving what it needs to.

My plea is once again to go the debuff route because it's almost there, and it would require probably the least amount of changes to make into a functional and flavorful tree. It's also one of the niches ddo just kinda lacks - usually the "debuff" trees have 1-2 debuffs that are worthwhile and then a pile of other things that make them good dps where the debuffs come second (e.g. shintao, soul eater, etc.). Tying some really unique and cool debuff abilities with the right power budget into the capstone and a t5 that require shadow form, would be the way I'd go personally. Something to give a debuff to trash in aoe - i still like something that turns bestow curse into an aoe spell of some sort. Something to give a debuff or set of debuffs to a boss would be great as well.

Ill definitely log on and try this version of the class again, but I really dont think the few bug fixes are going to change the applicability of the feedback above that's based on lamm round 2.

I have to agree.

I hate to say it, because I absolutely love the idea of an undead cleric, and the dark apostate was the archetype I had the most hope for. I've been playing caster cleric for a couple months, and it's taken me so long because of how boring I find it to play compared to fvs. After transferring my character to Lam and rebuilding it with the new DD tree, I'm even worse off. I did a LR into Dark Apostate and didn't find it was any better either. At least I have motivation to get to 20 and TR quickly now!

I was sad to see that your revamp of warpriest in the first thread was shouted down so quickly, WP could use another look over, and the idea of making it more of a hybrid tree was great. Melee clerics should be more than just crappy paladins.

Cleric badly needs some help, and though I love to see the mission statement of archetypes is in creating space to do another pass over some older trees, this one is really missing the mark. Sacred Fist and Stormsinger are great as is, but I think the Dark Apostate and the Cleric overall deserve some more time and could wait until the next update or batch of archetypes.

[Drinkfist]

What Alignment will a Dark Apostate be starting as or Restricted to? Would you allow this Archetype to actually be Evil Aligned?

[droid327]

Yeah at this point its clear you have no intention of making any changes to make this tree interesting or useful, sorry to say...I wont repeat the feedback I've already given because the problems I talked about before went totally unaddressed

I'll just add one more: 6d6 Bane damage per Curse die to a single target is not that impressive. That's, what, 48d6 damage at L20 for a pure Apostate? 48*3.5=168...so basically a Harm. Except its Bane damage, so it scales on Force spellpower, which an Apostate isnt going to have much of. And since Bestow Curse is not a damage spell and thus doesnt take Max/Emp/Intens, that's another 225 missing spellpower over other damage spells

Long story short: the tree doesnt do anything that would make a Cleric want to be one, it defines no unique playstyle that scales well enough to be viable

[SpardaX]

What Alignment will a Dark Apostate be starting as or Restricted to? Would you allow this Archetype to actually be Evil Aligned?

This was answered in a previous preview, that no, evil will never come to DDO. DA has no alignment restriction, just like regular cleric.

[Xezom]

A bit disappointed that this is how the tree still looks at preview 3. I don't know how much room there is for changes because usually you guys dont do a preview 4.

But I'm fairly certain that all my feedback from playing and testing on preview 2 is mostly relevant. Sure the healing is fixed, but ultimately this tree still lacks identity.

* The dark apostate dice are still meaningless to casters because they only deal damage to undead for us. If I'm fighting undead, I've got other spells and resources than to use a single target curse spell.
* The capstone and T5s are still super underwhelmingly.
* I still see no reason to use shadow form, even if it looks aesthetically awesome. Clerics already can heal themselves, so undead form is actually a nerf rather than a buff by itself. Sure +2 wisdom, incorp/concealment that's likely nonstacking, is not enough justification for going neg spec healing rather than positive - this is especially true when in any raid environment your role is going to be a healer due to no meaningful boss dps, tanking ability, or other boss interactions. Also keep in mind that shadow form precludes taking another form ability (e.g. aasimar hp).
* When thinking about this tree's identity, dark priest screams out to me that it'd be something debuff oriented, evil oriented, or death oriented. Yet there's very little here for death spells. Very little here for evil casters (still have the weird situation where holy smite is best spell to use alignment wise even on a dark priest character). And while there's some good initial start to debuffs, there's no follow through. Both flavor wise and power wise it's still significantly underserving what it needs to.

My plea is once again to go the debuff route because it's almost there, and it would require probably the least amount of changes to make into a functional and flavorful tree. It's also one of the niches ddo just kinda lacks - usually the "debuff" trees have 1-2 debuffs that are worthwhile and then a pile of other things that make them good dps where the debuffs come second (e.g. shintao, soul eater, etc.). Tying some really unique and cool debuff abilities with the right power budget into the capstone and a t5 that require shadow form, would be the way I'd go personally. Something to give a debuff to trash in aoe - i still like something that turns bestow curse into an aoe spell of some sort. Something to give a debuff or set of debuffs to a boss would be great as well.

Ill definitely log on and try this version of the class again, but I really dont think the few bug fixes are going to change the applicability of the feedback above that's based on lamm round 2.

Yeah at this point its clear you have no intention of making any changes to make this tree interesting or useful, sorry to say...I wont repeat the feedback I've already given because the problems I talked about before went totally unaddressed

I'll just add one more: 6d6 Bane damage per Curse die to a single target is not that impressive. That's, what, 48d6 damage at L20 for a pure Apostate? 48*3.5=168...so basically a Harm. Except its Bane damage, so it scales on Force spellpower, which an Apostate isnt going to have much of. And since Bestow Curse is not a damage spell and thus doesnt take Max/Emp/Intens, that's another 225 missing spellpower over other damage spells

Long story short: the tree doesnt do anything that would make a Cleric want to be one, it defines no unique playstyle that scales well enough to be viable

I'll third this one. I'm a bit disappointed to see that none of the very solid and interesting suggestions that have been made to improve this trees identity with a dark caster (particularly those centered on sharpening it's identity as a debuffer) have made any impact on the development of the tree. I still feel like this tree lacks identity and Synergy with itself. Sure there are parts, but thats what it feels like still. A bunch of moshposh parts instead of a cohesive tree. This tree is a lot of little parts and ideas that add up to a lot of nothing meaningful in any department. I'll echo that I'm going to give this a solid try but I have low expectations that it feels much better than Preview 2. I know Preview 4's are very rare so i'm kinda losing hope that the tree will hit the mark of what so many of us are looking for before release, but i'm still hoping that some of the great ideas that have been posted here will sway you guys to give it that last little touch it needs to make it truly unique.

While Lynnabel did specify that since these are untyped bonuses for the Incorp/Conseal, Provided they function correctly, this tree has nice defense options but just doesn't feel right still. It definitely hit the lower offense higher defensive mark, but right now it is missing meaningful contribution to either a team or enough oomph to be a good solo character.

I'm also going to echo the request (as i mentioned in the previous preview when it was noted) to take off the Undead restriction on Cursed Words (Curse SLA). Clerics have good means of dealing with undead, escpecially with Mighty Turning in this tree. This tree lacks oomph for sawing through most things. 6d6 evil damage per pact dice makes taking the DA Dice line in the tree very enticing until you read that it only works on Undead. I stick with my original feedback of: Remove the Restriction of only working on undead, and lower the per dice damage to compensate, if needed for the wider use (I argue that it is not just because you can't amp it up). Additionally, Change the damage to Evil damage instead of Bane, for scaling and cohesion reasons. Curse is still a Single Target SLA that is NOT impacted by Max/Emp, so the damage is not going to be amazing even if you allow it to be used on everything. Allowing it to damage all enemies would also give this tree an option to do thematic damage (Evil) vs relying on the DD light spells which are currently some of the best to use as a DA simply cause Negative has TONS of resistance/immunity and none of the Cleric tree have bypass (Which is fine cause Clerics are one of the BEST for handling undead naturally by virtue of their spell books and Turning).

Finally, I am really really really begging that the T5's get adjusted. I know that there is this push to make this tree a mock-necromancer, but lets face it, the rest of the tree simply does not follow that route. At least please consider changing Benediction to something that supports the Debuffing fantasy that the early tree is trying to sell. Even if it's an upgrade to Cursed Words that makes it work on everything or making Curse an AoE spell, or adding some Unique Debuffing Ability... something... anything to throw the Debuffing fantasy of a Hex Priest a bone.

I'll also echo that Stormsinger and Sacred Fist are in pretty good spots. They have a cohesive feel and play and a very clear identity that is still uniquely their own. That's why I have no feedback on them even though I'm a Bard main. The other two Archtype, to me, seem finished and ready to go. I would like to see the DA taken back to the drawing board and polished up rather than seeing it release in it's current state.

[ShadowFlash]

Does "Apostate's Curse" Melee strike actually apply a "curse" effect? Kinda one of those little things that would help the weak sauce damage of "Prayer for Mercy" double damage against cursed. I mean... it has Curse in the name and all...

[LittleLexi]

I don't know why a Dark Apostate would want to Destroy Undead...when they can use them Like if their Turning had a Control Undead effect instead.

Then, being able to drain or sacrifice these undead for spell power, HP, SP etc. would be totally on theme. And it'll allow Radiant Servants to shine at what they do.

Still don't know why Ward of Shadow is in this tree, or in tier 5, for that matter. But doesn't look like it's changing eh? Getting Radiant Servant rework flashbacks...

--------------------------------------------

Divine Disciple is a whole lot of numbers and not enough fun/flavor.

[Xezom]

Does "Apostate's Curse" Melee strike actually apply a "curse" effect? Kinda one of those little things that would help the weak sauce damage of "Prayer for Mercy" double damage against cursed. I mean... it has Curse in the name and all...

In game, the Ultimate Heresy point does not even have the Curse on crit that's noted in the patch notes. It didn't last patch either but somehow still made it into the patch notes for this preview. It happens with everything that gets shifted there's bound to be things lost in the shuffle. I'm not sure if it's supposed to be in game or the patch notes are just a relic from the first preview. But either way.


So I've now tried this tree on this Preview and what I feared was going to happen is still the case. This tree is still far too underwhelming in every department to be considered viable/unique. Your best options for spells are to use almost ANY light scaling SLA you can get from anywhere else and it's going to do better than your Prayer For Mercy. I know this is because of the metamagic vs no metamagic issue. I would have far less of a problem with this is the tree did something meaningful later, but it just simply isn't the case, as a caster that is. It has some decent defensive options and a relatively deceptive amount of survivability due to the Incorp/Conseal stacking mechanics (especially if you take perma Blur/ lesser displacement items), Extended unconscious range, and free once per 3 minute self stabilize/heal buff. So here's my final thoughts and feedback since I'm going to guess this is the final Preview before this is launched.

From what I've found there are about 3 Total Methods with the DA as a caster:

Similarities with all the builds I've tried so far:

- You will HARD struggle early levels as a Pure DA. Period. No matter what route you go. Until you hit level 5 for your first Domain SLA and/or T3 for Pray for mercy you have no damage as a pure DA whatsoever. Even with Pray For Mercy the damage is still pretty negligible as a pure DA, but you at least have something.
- The majority of your firepower will come from other sources NOT found in the DA tree. On this note: if enemies aren't cursed your Prayer for Mercy goes from doing little damage to doing laughably insignificant damage. Most SLA's I've tested do more damage ON A SAVE than Pray for Mercy does on a Cursed enemy (double damage). DA is not in any fashion SP effective for DPS on it's own.
- You will find yourself trying to figure out what feats to take if running Pure/dedicated DA because the typical Caster Meta-Magics have VERY limited use. Heighten/Enlarge are the two most globally usable for all DA casters. Max/Emp depends what route you're taking but are completely useless for Pure DA (save for your Domain spells).

Some Style, Same Outcome:

1) For Pure DA: You're mostly going to be focused on Insta-kills. Yeah I know not what the tree looks like either, but just follow me. Take death domain. Not because you're going to be a Pale Master but simply because you get Destruction as a SLA and Necro Boosts. Heighten/Enlarge Manditory, Empower/Maximize Recommended. As you level, Spam Necrotic ray. Use bane and curse to drop enemies saves if needed to make sure it lands. Once you are level 14, Spam Curse SLA and Destruction SLA. Throw some Necrotic Rays if you need to wait on Destruction CD but otherwise you're mainly going to focus on it. For Undead there are a couple options, Pick up the Mighty Turning and Enhanced Turning points in this tree if you want but far from mandatory and arguable whether or not even worth. Death Domain will help with your turning check to just destroy them, but your default spell book still has better options for dealing with undead than simply relying on turning (Undeath to Death being a Necro spell works decently later, and any light spell like Searing light works early). Curse Undead to get the chip damage from Cursed words, but as undead get stronger and you get higher level it will become less and less effective at taking them down by itself simply cause it's tied to a fixed amount of DA dice. Ironically it's one of the MOST useful damaging points in the entire tree. But more on that in my feedback section. And That's about it. What you take in the tree other than The Curse/Bane SLA, Necro DC, and defensive points is all Fluff/filler/taste and really don't have a large effect on them playstyle. For T5's, Necromatic devotion is the only mandatory to take. Ultimate Heresy is okay for topping off your DA dice for Cursed words if you really want it. Every other T5 is junk. Shadows of Death can be okay if you also opt to take Dark rewards for some occasional temp SP but by the time you can stack a lot of crit, you're going to mostly be spamming Destruction/using destiny points.

Undead form: Optional. Personally, I don't recommend it unless you take Return to Dusk, which is a very nice and strong ability. Does it compensate for the Pos Healing penalty and clunky negative self healing? I'll let you decide that, because I could argue either way.

2) The More likely build: This is most likely going to be the more used method as it's not relying on DC casting and insta-kills, but in my opinion is also further from what a Dark Apostate should be than the first (and I don't feel like the first does a great job at delivering on the Dark Apostle fantasy, so....). For this Set up, take Sun Domain. Additionally, take all of the Divine Disciple SLA's up to Holy Smite. Once you've gotten that far, you can start taking points in the DA tree. Sadly, the majority of the points you will take in this tree will be the defensive ones. The Prayer for Mercy/Undead slying abilities are simply no comparison to fully maximized and empowered damaging light SLAs. In fact, I would go so far as to say don't even bother taking the T5 in DA. Take it in DD instead. Nothing the T5 DA is going to be efficient enough to justify taking it as a caster no matter if you take light or negative DD SLA's. We all know the weakness of focusing on pure negative power which is why I say only go light here and splash DA for defensive options and some of the utility points like Sp on crit.

3) The Alternate Negative DA: basically you do the exact same thing you would do in the Pure DA set up as I've stated with all the Domains/Metas/etc, but instead take all the Negative SLA's in the DD Tree up to Necrotic Bolt, but again if you are wanting to focus DA you're late game is going to be mostly spamming Destruction SLA + Curse SLA. This option simply gives you more spells to fill casting gaps.

Conclusion:

The DA is best used as a splash tree. Focusing the DA is not what I would recommend at all in it's current state. It is so close to being able to carve a niche as a debuffer, but it simply doesn't provide enough later game potential in that department to be viable. It also is NOT a DPS tree by itself as it's damage capacity is dismal at best. Undead form is arguable in it's usefulness as a mechanic on a cleric simply because positive healing is so efficient that taking the heal penalty and having to use the manual self target to self heal where a regular cleric can be targeting an enemy and just hit a pos healing spell, sorta makes self sustain feel clunky. I believe there are targetting options to address this, but it is something to note as it's the default behavior of the spells. I still feel like this tree is pulled in to many directions and doesn't accomplish any of them well. Look at it's description vs the other archetype descriptions and you can see that it's got too much to try to squash into one tree.

Stormsinger: Lightning and sonic damage, thunder, offensive spellcasting (Basically Electric and Cold or Electic and Sonic offense caster)
Sacred Fist: Punch paladin! Burn enemies with your sacred fists. (The most straight froward. Monk Paladin)
Dark Apostle: Dark healing, evil magic, negative damage, undead control and destruction (Negative self healing and Negative damage, Light/Alignment Evil Damage, and Undead management)

The other two trees have very specific and clearly lined out roles that they are designed to fill. The DA is trying to do 3-4 different things all at once, and the description doesn't even include on hit/weapon focus but you could argue that that mostly falls under evil damage even if it is more or less underwhelming.

Suggestions:

Long and Short of it is that this tree needs a shave and a haircut. Some of the theme cramming needs trimmed out to make room for a clearer and more defined style like the other Archetypes. Additionally, the specifics in the tree need a polish to make them feel like they are meaningful but a lot of that can be numeric adjustments that come with time, so i'm less concerned with that than I am about the tuning in of the play style.

1) T5's have got to be overhauled/revamped at least to some degree. I am still a firm advocate of changing the mostly useless Benediction point to one of the following: Poison SLA (With Max/Emp you get some huge constitution damage that on non-stat guard creatures often leads to helplessness), Mass Curse SLA, or some unique Debuff ability that ties with the Pray For Mercy to give the tree an identity as a debuffer while also make Pray for Mercy more useful since right now it lacks oomph. If not benediction, Ward of Shadow, but I don't see this ability being scrapped since it is a new ability only found in this tree and would result in "wasted" development time if it's scrapped. Personally, scrapping benediction is the most fitting place to go about making the change in T5 towards debuffer since, at least from my testing, it is an inconsequential point to the style of play that the DA uses. At the most, all benediction does is puts spellbook cast non-amped Harm up to a meh level for damage (still has the issue of being negative with no bypass and not an SLA so too expensive to amp) and Heal level for self healing. I don't feel that justifies it's place in this particular tree, especially as a T5 since DA has plenty of other options for self healing that are wholly sufficient and it's very unlikely you're going to run with enough other undead players to ever use Harm as a party/ally heal.

2) Cursed Words DA Dice scaling changed from only working on undead to all targets and changed to Evil rather than Bane. This would help with some firepower issues by adding more potential chip damage to all targets while also helping with scaling since Evil is light based and Bane is Force based (the only thing in this tree outside using Death Domain Destruction spam that is force based). Other parts of the tree are light/alignment focused so it seems more fitting to go that way.


Really that's it. I don't actually WANT this tree to be a full SLA slinging nuke tree. I really like the effects and the fact it uses some less used spells like Curse and Bane. The abilities look cool when they proc and so does the Shade Form. I also personally like that the tree is not a single cast and kill look on the surface, unfortunately as you get later it becomes more and more that because it relies on instakills or SLA's from other trees to stay even remotely relevant. I really truly love this theme on this character and love the look and feel, it just simply doesn't hit the mark for a standalone tree, especially when you consider that it's the namesake of the Dark Apostle subclass. It should be the main reason you play a Dark Apostle Archtype, but in it's current state I fear it's going to release and be the least efficient of the 3 Archtypes being released. I think lots of players will try it because the theme is cool, but will become frustrated like I and several others here have voiced, that it doesn't live up to expectations and lacks a cohesive style that matches its theme. I will speak for myself, but i know that there are many others here that feel the same why when I say, I'm pretty frustrated with the development of this tree. As someone else mentioned, it almost seems like there is a checklist of items that are being forced into this tree despite resounding feedback that they do not belong/feel right/need tweaked. For me the frustration comes not from the devs because I'm the first to say I love our devs and appreciate the work they do. It comes from the fact that there has been so much good and thoughtful suggestions and feedback all pointing towards how to sharpen the tree and now after 3 previews the issues that existed back in Preview 1 and then again in Preview 2 that people wanted to see changed, remain unchanged. It is so close that just a few simple tweaks could put it over the line from wonky to cool. It's just a Kobald tail away from being the awesome Dark Caster it could be, so it's just a little frustrating to see it so close and tripping at the finish line.

I'm still throwing out (dark) Prayers that we can convince the devs to reconsider the T5's and the disjointed nature of this tree before it's release and sharpen it's identity. *fingers crossed*

[homepage9]

This tree has very strange core abilities. It will not make sense unless you look at it in-game.

• Transcend Light: Req having only Emissary of Light cores. You now gain the Spellbook spells of the Path of Darkness.
• Transcend Darkness: Req having only Emissary of Darkness cores: You now gain the Spellbook spells of the Path of Light.
• Bring Balance: req having both Light and Dark cores: The Word of Balance spell is added to your Spellbook at level 7. (yes, both light and dark cores... this tree is funky fresh)

[/COLOR]

a little quest, just a little.
since we have word of balance in DDO, why could we have "Holy Word" and "Blasphemy" in light or darkness.
however, you can just make it affect like "word of balance".
I thought it will make a new world for some alignment clr.

[Gnominal_Aphasia]

Hi, read a lot of text walls about Dark Apostate... maybe I missed something, but can anyone tell me if DA also gets access to Domains? Thanks!

EDIT... I am sure that I saw a video with Lynnabel months ago where they said that more immunity stripping would be implemented in heroics... what happened to that part? Negative/Cold/Electric etc.

EDIT2 Cursed Words SLA... I don't get the notion of this only applying to undead. Why not have damage to all monsters? Sort of echoing what others have written, when faced with undead hit the Holy Smite button... why would I need another undead only ability?

EDIT3 Does DA have any advantages over [my preferred style] normal Cleric with Death Domain and Light Emissary?

[Lotoc]

Hi, read a lot of text walls about Dark Apostate... maybe I missed something, but can anyone tell me if DA also gets access to Domains? Thanks!

EDIT... I am sure that I saw a video with Lynnabel months ago where they said that more immunity stripping would be implemented in heroics... what happened to that part? Negative/Cold/Electric etc.

You very likely did not see such a thing as immunity strips are one of lynnabel's big things he wants to remove from the game in favor of specific spells just ignoring immunities or casters having fall back elements.
This is why the design of DA is actually more about evil damage sources than negative so you have consistent damage, it's also why stormsinger is designed to be a tri-element caster instead of slapping in elec immunity strip.

[Lotoc]

so something occured to me about the first cores
Emissary of Light: Req Cleric 1, antireq Emissary of Darkness: You have chosen Light as your path. For each Core Ability you take in this tree, you gain +5 Light and +5 Universal Spellpower.
Emissary of Darkness: Req Cleric 1, antireq Emissary of Light: You have chosen Darkness as your path. For each Core Ability you take in this tree, you gain +5 Negative and +5 Universal spellpower.

For a start they're improperly tagged as antireqs of each other when the design has you able to take each.
But also it's saying "For each core ability you take in this tree" rather than "For each core you take in this path"
Does this mean that if you have both the dark and light core 1s each core is going to give 5 light, 5 negative and 10 universal spellpower? This is kind of what the current text implies.
May be a bit strong if that is how it'd work but honestly for the tradeoff of being unable to take the capstone +30 L/N and 30 U spellpower is probably fair.

[Gnominal_Aphasia]

You very likely did not see such a thing as immunity strips are one of lynnabel's big things he wants to remove from the game in favor of specific spells just ignoring immunities or casters having fall back elements.
This is why the design of DA is actually more about evil damage sources than negative so you have consistent damage, it's also why stormsinger is designed to be a tri-element caster instead of slapping in elec immunity strip.

I did see Lynnabel mention that immunity stripping would be implemented in heroic trees during a discussion with Strimtom on EDs. But I do recognise that Stormsinger would provide three "elements" which can help against immunity, and also recognise that by providing bards access to high damage cold and electric spells is exciting; I think that a change of heart concerning immunity stripping happened when designing (but not testing) the new Archetypes. I wonder if EDs such as Fatesinger will be modified down the road to add synergy for these new builds.

[lain5246]

Howdy all! Please be sure to check out both the Producer's Letter and the Archetype Overview page before diving in here

Dark Apostate is a Cleric Archetype.

Spells/Feats/Class Features

Instead of automatically preparing Cure Wounds spells, Dark Apostates automatically prepare the Inflict Wounds spells.

Past Life: Dark Apostate: +5 Negative Healing Amplification and +5 Negative Spell Power (stacks 3 times)

New Tree: Dark Apostate
Replaces Radiant Servant

Themes: Dark healing, evil magic, negative damage, undead control and destruction

Summary: Shroud yourself in shadow as a master of darkness and negative energy magic.

Tree:

• Core 1: Dark Apostate Each core in this tree including this one grants you +5 Negative and Alignment Spellpower and +5 Negative Healing Amplification.
• Core 3: Shadow Shrouding: Toggle: Shroud yourself in Necromantic Energies and assume the form of a Shadow. While in Shadow form, you are considered an Undead, gain a base 100% Fortification, and may heal from Negative Energies. This healing comes at a cost - Undead naturally only take 50% healing from Positive Energy and take 100% more damage from Light. You gain +2 Wisdom and +2 Constitution, as well as +5% Incorporeality and Concealment as your form is partially obscured and intangible. This is a Major Form.
• Core 6: Enhanced Shadowform I: Your Shadow Shrouding gains an additional +5% Incorporeality and Concealment (for a total of 10% each). Your Apostate's Curse gains 1 additional damage dice.
• Core 12: Enhanced Shadowform II: Your Shadow Shrouding gains an additional +5% Incorporeality and Concealment (for a total of 15% each). Your Bestow Curse, Doom, and Bane spells no longer have a saving throw.
• Core 18: Enhanced Shadowform III: Your Shadow Shrouding gains an additional +5% Incorporeality and Concealment (for a total of 20% each). You also passively gain +1 Necromancy DC, and your Apostate's Curse gains 1 additional damage dice.
• Core 20: Master of Shadows: Your Shadow Shrouding gains an additional +5% Incorporeality and Concealment (for a total of 25% each). You also passively gain +4 Wisdom, and your Apostate's Curse gains 1 additional damage dice.

Tier 1:

• SLA: Bane
• Apostate's Skills: +1/2/3 Heal, Hide, and Bluff. Rank 3: +1 Will saving throw
• Shadowy Bulwark: +5/10/15 HP
• Apostate's Curse: Toggle: Your Favored Weapons channel the dark energies within you, twisting them into evil versions of themselves - they deal an additional 1d6 Evil Damage on hit (scaling with 100% spellpower).
• Traditionalist Caster: +3/6/10 Universal Spell Power when wielding an Orb or Staff.

Tier 2:

• SLA: Prayer
• Mighty Turning: When you successfully Turn Undead, the Undead are now destroyed.
• Enhanced Turning: +2/4/6 Turn Undead charges.
• Enhanced Curse I: (req Apostate's Curse) Your Apostate's Curse gains 1 additional damage dice, and grants your Favored Weapons Ghost Touch.
• Dark Rewards: When you critically hit with a Negative or Alignment spell, you gain 3/6/10 Sacred Temporary SP that last for 1 minute.

Tier 3:

• Pray for Mercy: Your Prayer-like spells (Bless, Bane, Prayer) now resonate with Evil energies, dealing 1d6 Evil damage per Caster Level to all enemies. This damage is doubled against enemies that are Cursed.
• Endless Turning: Turn Undead uses regenerate at a rate of one every 120 seconds, or 10%/20%/30% faster if it already regenerates.
• Cursed Words: SLA for Bestow Curse. This costs 0 Spellpoints to activate. Bestow Curse now deals 6d6 Bane damage to Undead per Dark Apostate Dice.
• Enhanced Curse II: (req Enhanced Curse I) Your Apostate's Curse gains 1 additional damage dice. Favored Weapons are now an Implement in your hands.
• +1 Wisdom

Tier 4:

• Blessings of the Shadows: You gain +50/100/150 Incapacitation Range
• Return to Dusk: While you are in any Undead form, when you are knocked unconscious, you dissolve into shadows, granting you Invisibility and Displacement. After 5 seconds, your body reforms, and you are healed for 1d6 Negative Energy per Character Level. This may only happen once every 3 minutes.
• Dark Judgement: When you use Turn Undead, you and allies near you gain +3/6/10 Temporary HP per Apostate's Curse bonus dice.
• Enhanced Curse III: (req Enhanced Curse II) Your Apostate's Curse gains 1 additional damage dice.
• +1 Wisdom

Tier 5:

• Benediction: Harm now scales with 2x Spellpower and may now kill enemies.
• Ward of Shadow: Wards all nearby allies against all four alignments and light. This is Protection from Elements but for Law, Chaos, Evil, Good, and Light damage.
• Necromantic Devotion: +1 DCs with Necromancy spells.
• Ultimate Heresy: (req Enhanced Curse III) Your Apostate's Curse gains 2 additional damage dice. On crit, you apply 1d3 stacks of Vulnerability and apply the effects of the Curse spell.
• Shadows of Death: You gain +5% Negative and Alignment Spell Critical Chance

Note that this tree releases alongside the revamped Divine Disciple tree, see below!

Bugs fixed since last Lamannia:

• inflict mass spells may now heal the caster (for real this time)
• Harm works with Benediction
• dark apostate cores now buff the shadowform properly
• protection from alignment effects now have better icons and descriptions
• Dark Apostate now has its proper icons
• Return to Dusk no longer damages you if you are not Undead
• harm now benefits from empower heal metamagic
• SLAs no longer share cooldowns with the base spell
• Dark Apostate dice are now in the Epic Elemental Dice feat

I am sad there is no aura to heal with necro energy like the healing aura from radiant servant, it would fit flavor wise.

[voxson5]

Themes: Dark healing, evil magic, negative damage, undead control and destruction.

Why doesn't dark apostate's turn undead charm/enslave them?

[Xgya]

Can we get the Bane damage from Curses on all targets?

It seems this tree is a Warpriest wannabe, a LOT of the stuff is about fighting with sharp metal sticks in the name of the Host.

The tree as it stands doesn't seem to know what it wants to be.

The archetype is OBVIOUSLY meant to be a negative-energy-focused caster, but as it stands, it looks slightly less attractive to a caster than Arcane Archer.


Using all that tree's abilities to its fullest feels like I'm an undead-form Eldritch Knight, only with less magical support and less melee support. About the same negative amplification, and about the same levels of resiliency.

9d6 (31.5) Evil damage vs 7d12 (45.5) elemental, and that's entirely ignoring that one tree gets extra doublestrike while the other doesn't.
Comparing to Arcane Archer makes it look slightly less disfavorable (9d8 elemental damage)


Frankly, I'd rather entirely remove the Curse Die or make those a magical attack.
Tie it ALL to Bestow Curse, allow it at level 1 (it's not THAT powerful a spell where DDO is concerned), and make it deal a small amount of scaleable damage over time which the curse die would be.
Make the higher up SLA be a Mass Bestow Curse. It's unique, extra-evil things we can now do to the bad guys that's actually spellcasting-related!

Give a buff spell a la Crown of Summer you can give to your friendly Fighter friend that makes THEIR crits (or yours, if you can self-target) apply Bestow Curse and all the goodies you can have those curses channel. Now you're bribing minions instead of stepping on the Palemaster's toes and making your own. All in the name of goodness and totally-not-evil.

[ShadowFlash]

So Bestow Curse is no longer an AOE tied to Turn Uses. Just awful.
Prayer SLA Damage can't be Meta Magic'd and instead of Negative damage... evil = alignment = LIGHT!!! But at least it gave an excuse to nerf Prayer Cooldown for Everyone.
In fact
It's completely a Melee Tree now, and gives nothing to use your Turn's on.
Yet....
In DD, 15 points of Negative Spellpower is tied to Negative Healing Amp supposedly encouraging some kind of synergy to using DD' Shadow Form, AND we lose Necrotic Energy Burst which WOULD have synergized.

I was willing to look at the cursing aspect, but going high in the Shifter tree is just plain better. Howl AOE... superior, And can still use "normal" Prayer/bane/bestow/etc, making it better at debuffing than DA! Grab Lesser Displacement without the penalties of being undead, plus picking up 6% dodge along the way, AND an AOE CC.... I mean it's not even close!

Please fix the Neg spellpower tied to Neg Healing Amp in DD at least so casters are not penalized for ignoring this DA abomination.