Update 56 Preview 3: Sacred Fist Archetype

[Ordinary]

While converting the tree for the planner I noticed an error in one of the Tier 5 entries for the tree requiring Paladin level 2, which should be Paladin level 5 .

[askrj1]

This probably isnt the answer people want to hear
But like, when I needed Divine Might on my bard, I just took a lv of FvS.

The thing is bards didn't have DM native, but paladins do. It makes no sense to make an archetype dependent on cha then not give them the required ability, then need to take multiclass to utilize it and never access the capstone.

Also martial bards could never really play pure anyway to start with.

[Krelar]

Quick update: We've also managed to make Smite Evil look way cooler for Sacred Fists.

Did you do it in such a way that it doesn't reduce your attack rate? Many years ago there was an attempt to make smite evil look *cooler* that actually made you do less DPS than if you just used regular attacks.

[Nickodeamous]

I also noticed that monks already had 2 hits at 4W. I would much rather have the 4W and pay an extra feats like before (I would use Spring Attack anyway -- even though Tabaxi Iconic get 200% melee power with it and feline agility and Razor claw can pounce with 6W. (These spin attacks come simply in racial tree even at level 1 if you have enough racials.)

Simultaneously they buff great cleave to be equivalent of the nerfed Whirlwind helping all other melees again except Handwrap monks. Monk handwrap is at the bottom of DPS and there they shall remain with this new nerf. Even sacred fist is more DPS with their added d6s of fire dmg with each hit from the cores! Yet the very class that was originally designed to do fantastic dps with handwraps (open hand before this) remains a lack luster melee class. Even the new archetype does better at it that them.....

I don't like how in the end that there is bragging and smiling about improving cleaves and whirlwind for other weapon types, while sneaking in another reduction to handwrap monks.

My suggestion: Go back to 4W and make this spin attack equivalent to the 2 racial spins/spring attacks that are better in the two racials. At least 3W -- though that is still a nerf. I know that Plowshares is suppose to "even" out this nerf, but originally the Handwraps adding +1 in Plowshares was suppose to improve monk DPS to bring them out of the basement. A 5% more chance of a crit I don't think does much now with this whirlwind attack reduction.

My second suggestion: Let offhand attacks affect whirlwind (I think they once did long ago before that was nerfed....I could be wrong on that). The monk trains equally on both sides of his body so in this case "off-foot." This would potentially, depending on their offhand attack percentage give them a chance of a third hit.

Yeah, I was happy for all of about 30 seconds when I saw that everybody would have 2 hits... Here's one more for you as well. Im sure you know this, but Drifting Lotus hits 3 times for stick monks and only 1 time for handwraps? How about that literal kick in the teeth to handwrap monks. I brought it up a few times, but the tree that we are "supposed" to use is garbage (hence why I use another ED).

I would keep in mind that 5% more chance to crit is actually more DPS that just 5%, since a crit hits at what 4x or something?

The thing that scares me is that they said that this is just to start to get great cleave and WWA in line...so who knows what they are planning to do after this round. I can stand to lose the 2w if I do not lose the 2 hits. Its really immaterial at end game, but it hurts on the way up through heroics.

Please Devs, realize that monks are supposed to be the quintessential handwrap users, not dogs, not paladins. (no offense to Pallys). They should be better in all facets as this is what a monk is.

bring back our heroic w's!!! Pretty please...with sugar on top!

Nico

[Lotoc]

Please Devs, realize that monks are supposed to be the quintessential handwrap users, not dogs, not paladins. (no offense to Pallys). They should be better in all facets as this is what a monk is.

bring back our heroic w's!!! Pretty please...with sugar on top!

Nico

Sacred Fist is even more focused on Handwraps than Monk is both in DDO and in Tabletop (in fact in tabletop for a Sacred Fist even carrying a weapon causes the equivalent of a paladin committing an evil deed and falling), being that not only do you not get proficiency with the other centered weapons besides quarterstaves but you're also locked to Handwraps as favored weapons, making handwraps so they're only viable on monks specifically just makes the archetype entirely redundant, it also makes improvements to handwraps hard to justify when only one class uses them and that class has plenty of alternative playstyles.
In tabletop plenty of classes have existed that use unarmed combat, Pugilists, Brawlers, Sacred Fists, Fist of the Forest etc. No other combat style gets this unjustified "Me only screw everyone else" mindset, you don't see fighter players saying nobody else should be allowed to use a tower shield, you don't get barbarians saying you're ruining their class fantasy by using a greataxe on another class. Hell I bet druids wouldn't complain nearly as much if wizards or sorcs got an archetype around polymorphing theirselves.

As is monks get plenty that Sacred Fist won't.
Far more movement speed, abundant step, stances, alternative weapon options, shuriken use, an array of Ki attacks of 5/6 different elements, the finisher system etc. If you want improvements to monk I'd advise focusing more on the monk class's unique systems than on a weapon type.

[Nickodeamous]

Sacred Fist is even more focused on Handwraps than Monk is both in DDO and in Tabletop

This is a video game. if DDO went by tabletop rules, Monks would get more base damage increase (hence my W's comment, which SSG took away)

making handwraps so they're only viable on monks specifically just makes the archetype entirely redundant, it also makes improvements to handwraps hard to justify when only one class uses them and that class has plenty of alternative playstyles.

Anybody who wants to use wraps can use them on shifters and now Pally's. Doesnt bother me one bit. I never said make them only viable on monks. I simply said that monks should have their W's reinstated to compete with other DPS builds. And yes, I have tried shurikens, and sticks, but my playstyle is handwraps, so that's what i'll play (and I make it work)

In tabletop plenty of classes have existed that use unarmed combat, Pugilists, Brawlers, Sacred Fists, Fist of the Forest etc. No other combat style gets this unjustified "Me only screw everyone else" mindset

This is not my intention at all. I didn't say screw any playstyle here. All I said was Monks should be tops with wraps, and since monks have been the class nerfed the most in the last 5 years, I think adding the w's back is a good start.

you don't see fighter players saying nobody else should be allowed to use a tower shield, you don't get barbarians saying you're ruining their class fantasy by using a greataxe on another class. Hell I bet druids wouldn't complain nearly as much if wizards or sorcs got an archetype around polymorphing theirselves.

Maybe I should just change over to a Pally. I have the gear. I dont care who plays what.

As is monks get plenty that Sacred Fist won't. Far more movement speed, abundant step, stances, alternative weapon options, shuriken use, an array of Ki attacks of 5/6 different elements, the finisher system etc.

I've played a handwrap monk player for years. Movement speed is nice I agree. Abundant step is now meh due to spring attack (which anybody can get basically). Stances are nice. Alternative weapons for me at least are a deal breaker. I personally have a playstyle I like as I am sure you do. I like handwraps. I could care less for stick builds or throwers. They aren't my bag. Ok, Ki attacks are nice. I don't think sacred fist has QP (which was nerfed into oblivion), or jade type strikes, so I see your point. Finishers are garbage and honestly everything is dead before you even rattle anything off. I dont even have the elemental strikes in my rotation. lol. Anyway, there is alot of differences! And that's good!

If you want improvements to monk I'd advise focusing more on the monk class's unique systems than on a weapon type.

hence, back to my original note, to add back the leveling damage in the form of W's. It would be a good start.

Honestly, I am excited to try the archetype, but my post had nothing to do with them. it started on whirlwind attack and the 2W nerf to it for monks, and the 2 hit buff for all other classes. Then I got rolling on other stuff.

[LurkingVeteran]

It's the same animation as before, but we've eliminated most of the gap between when the animation finished and when you are allowed to attack again; it should be significantly smoother and somewhat shorter overall. And if you're any build that has Strikethrough, this now hits twice at 4[w] where before it only hit once at 4[w], so it should be significantly better than before.

(This wasn't in the notes at all because I finished it about 90 seconds ago).

Just to be clear. I believe these two attacks have always proced offhand strikes for handwraps. Will that be that case for other dual wielded weapons as well?

Regarding the regular cleaves, the +2 vs +4W gets insignificant quickly. It would be much better if you made abilities just scale with x% more melee power. GCleave could use about 150% MP and Cleave maybe 125%. Exact numbers to be tweaked so that they aren't much of a DPS on single targets. I'm not sure if the engine allows this, but it would make sense and play very well I think.

[LurkingVeteran]

...

Furthermore, we're adjusting Ki Explosion: it now deals 1d6+3 Fire and Force damage per caster level, scaling with 300% Melee Power. And its casting speed has been adjusted from 1.1 to 1.5 (this comes out to about a 25% increase in casting speed).

Regarding SLA-like damage abilities that are not spells or melee attacks, there is a fundamental scaling problem with these that at some point should be addressed if they are to stay relevant in epics. Melee attacks in epics scale to a large extent through weapon damage and double strike, while spell casters instead get some MCL, crit% and crit damage on top of the regular melee/spell power scaling. These non-spell "SLAs" get neither, so even though they scale with melee power, they fall tragically behind.

One can fiddle with the MP scaling %, but the power curves of MP alone is about linear, while when taking the above factors into account, the power becomes non-linear. This means it will always either be OP 1-2x, or weak at cap. An alternative might be to simply scale damage more with epic levels (currently there is none), or allow these SLAs to double strike somehow.

Note on Ki Bolt: I hope you guys have looked at the animation, it was useless before. I would also generally prefer all of these did more light or force than fire, since fire is so resisted and they have no alternatives.

[Xgya]

Anyway, back to Sacred Fist: the level 6 feat Divine Dream now grants Charisma to Attack/Damage while centered. Furthermore, we're adjusting Ki Explosion: it now deals 1d6+3 Fire and Force damage per caster level, scaling with 300% Melee Power. And its casting speed has been adjusted from 1.1 to 1.5 (this comes out to about a 25% increase in casting speed).

Anyway, that's all I got for you right now for Sacred Fist!

Actively increased my hype for Sacred Fist.

And the WWA feat looks a LOT better than it used to. Might need to re-plan a few builds to slot that one back in all over again!

[Lotoc]

With regards to the lack of trance
Maybe have sacred fist be the prototype for the tranceless system, the one without snapshotting abuse.
Capstone giving "gain an insight bonus to damage and tactical DCs equal to 1/2 your charisma modifier at all times" would honestly fix a major concern people have with the class, balance Sacred Fist better vs a 18 sac/1fvs/1monk build and if it works out pathe the way for all trances to be moved in a similar direction.

[Thok]

Somebody please explain sacred fist dice to me. I'm a returning player. Thanks.

[C-Dog]

After the fact re Lam', and not the biggest bug on the field, but figured I'd post here...


The code for in-game gear for a SF is still targeted at a default heavy Pali.

At the end of The Shipwreck Shore, in that end chest, a SF receives a Medium armor breastplate and light shield - useless to a "monk".

Then, in reward lists, if you have "Rewards based on Class", you get Heavy and Medium armor and 2-handed weapons raining down; again, kinda not monk-friendly.

[cdbd3rd]

....
Then, in reward lists, if you have "Rewards based on Class", you get Heavy and Medium armor and 2-handed weapons raining down; again, kinda not monk-friendly.

LR'd a lowbie pally I hadn't used in a while to try this new thing out. Drow, Level 5. First note was as C-dog points out, couldn't get a set of 'Wraps in a quest reward to save my ... Fists.

Second, and haven't seen mention of this in all the SF threads I've dug through tonight... I have gathered up groups of Kobolds and fired off my Exalted Whirlwind in the middle of them, and... nothing. A quick little dance, but no hits, no misses, no notes in the combat log at all. The Whirlwind does break boxes & crates tho. (Am I sensing some Sonic Phoom'ishness? )

[TPICKRELL]

LR'd a lowbie pally I hadn't used in a while to try this new thing out. Drow, Level 5. First note was as C-dog points out, couldn't get a set of 'Wraps in a quest reward to save my ... Fists.

Second, and haven't seen mention of this in all the SF threads I've dug through tonight... I have gathered up groups of Kobolds and fired off my Exalted Whirlwind in the middle of them, and... nothing. A quick little dance, but no hits, no misses, no notes in the combat log at all. The Whirlwind does break boxes & crates tho. (Am I sensing some Sonic Phoom'ishness? )

Not sure what could be different, but I've got two Sacred Fist toons farming loot on Hardcore and Exalted Whirlwind is working for both of them. The hit box feels small, but its landing on multiple targets.

[cdbd3rd]

Not sure what could be different, but I've got two Sacred Fist toons farming loot on Hardcore and Exalted Whirlwind is working for both of them. The hit box feels small, but its landing on multiple targets.

I know it worked when I first LR'd. Only thing I can think of that I did weird was try using some random scrolls to hit a wall-clinging Kobold. Didn't catch the immediate moment it quit working. Relog didn't fix it.


Slogged on thru 5 and took 6. At that point, it started working again. *shrug* Dunno. As haven't seen it mentioned elsewhere, probably no big deal.

[TPICKRELL]

I know it worked when I first LR'd. Only thing I can think of that I did weird was try using some random scrolls to hit a wall-clinging Kobold. Didn't catch the immediate moment it quit working. Relog didn't fix it.


Slogged on thru 5 and took 6. At that point, it started working again. *shrug* Dunno. As haven't seen it mentioned elsewhere, probably no big deal.

Really weird, but so much in the game is weird right now. Thank you for the info, I'll be on the watch out for this now.

[Mindos]

With regards to the lack of trance
Maybe have sacred fist be the prototype for the tranceless system, the one without snapshotting abuse.
Capstone giving "gain an insight bonus to damage and tactical DCs equal to 1/2 your charisma modifier at all times" would honestly fix a major concern people have with the class, balance Sacred Fist better vs a 18 sac/1fvs/1monk build and if it works out pathe the way for all trances to be moved in a similar direction.

How do you define snapshotting abuse? And do you really want all the trances in the cores?

[ONIN_GIN_RYU]

Dear devs, please consider divine might on Sacred Fist enhancement tree.