Update 56 Preview 3: Sacred Fist Archetype

[Lynnabel]

i tried a build yesterday.

is it normal that at some point if i get 3 levels of (classic, not sacred fist) paladin those levels are visualized as cleric levels on the character sheet ?

Not normal! I'd love more information on how you leveled up - were you leveling in the dojo or through a Lesser/Epic Reincarnation? What was your class breakdown?

[Bowser_Koopa]

Just throwing this out there. Rather than Radiant Savant I think it would be interesting to have Enlightened spirit from the warlock tree in here and treat it as if Path of Light is a "pact" and let the class have access to the aura and other parts of Enlightened spirit.

Also I think it would be great if Grand Master of Flowers abilities that state "If you are in X stance the effects are doubled" was updated to include the Path of Light.

[Propane]

Spellbook:
Level 1:
Added: Ki Bolt. Fire a bolt of pure Ki towards enemies. Deals 1d6 Fire and 1d4 Force damage per caster level, scaling with 300% Melee Power. Note that this spell has been adjusted for playability for this Archetype and Henshin Mystic will also see this increased damage! Cost: 10 Ki
Removed: n/a

Level 2:
Added: Sacred Flame Empowerment. Upon cast, you are empowered by holy magic, granting you +3 Sacred Fist Dice and allowing your critical hits to deal 1d20 Bane damage per Sacred Fist Dice, scaling with 100% of your Melee Power. Cost: 18 Ki, Duration: 20 seconds
Removed: n/a

Level 3:
Added: Incinerating Wave: Creates an incinerating wave of ki fire. Deals 1d6+3 fire and force damage per caster level to targets within the wall, scaling with 300% Melee Power. Note that this spell has been adjusted for playability for this Archetype and Henshin Mystic will also see this increased damage! Cost: 18 Ki
Removed: n/a

Level 4:
Added: Ki Explosion: Waves of fire emanate from your body, dealing 1d6 per Sacred Fist Dice in Fire, Light, and Force damage to enemies in your vicinity, scaling with 200% Melee Power. For 20 seconds after you cast this spell, you benefit from Fire Shield: Hot, which prevents 50% of your incoming Fire damage and deals a small amount of Fire damage to attackers that strike you in melee. Cost: 30 Ki

Spell slots are really tight for Pallys - can we have these included elsewhere without taking up spell slots?

Adding 1 to each Core (1-4)
Adding 1 to each Tier of Sacred Strike (1-4)
Granting at levels one at levels: 2 6, 8, 12

[Lynnabel]

Hi friends, happy Wednesday, quick updates:

Whirlwind Attack is looking pretty sharp (thanks Steelstar!) and now fits pretty seamlessly into your attack chain - it scales with attack speed correctly now and you're released as soon as its done to your next attack. We've also fixed a variety of bugs with its animations and animation speed across all combat styles. With that in mind we're adjusting its W bonus to 2W for both hits from 4W. Furthermore, we're adjusting Great Cleave up to 4W. The feats end up as fun mirrors of each other, requirements wise:

• Great Cleave requires +4 BAB, Cleave, Power Attack, STR 13+ (because PA). 1 hit, 4W.
• New Whirlwind requires +4 BAB, Mobility, Dodge, DEX 13+ (because Dodge). 2 hits, 2W each.

Pretty neat, eh?

What this means for Sacred Fist is that the Exalted Whirlwind ability is going to move to 1W for each hit, and keep its cooldown matching Cleave. Avenging Whirlwind (the tier 5) will now share its cooldown with the Whirlwind Attack feat (rather than Great Cleave), apply 1 stack of Vuln per hit (so 2 total), and be adjusted to 2W for each hit.

We're doing this shuffle to try and move Great Cleave and Whirlwind Attack towards some sort of parity, and hopefully this is a good first step.

Anyway, back to Sacred Fist: the level 6 feat Divine Dream now grants Charisma to Attack/Damage while centered. Furthermore, we're adjusting Ki Explosion: it now deals 1d6+3 Fire and Force damage per caster level, scaling with 300% Melee Power. And its casting speed has been adjusted from 1.1 to 1.5 (this comes out to about a 25% increase in casting speed).

Anyway, that's all I got for you right now for Sacred Fist!

[Tianie]

So, when do we get the Shinto monk tree update, to go along with this.

[Tepi]

Anyway, back to Sacred Fist: the level 6 feat Divine Dream now grants Charisma to Attack/Damage while centered. Furthermore, we're adjusting Ki Explosion: it now deals 1d6+3 Fire and Force damage per caster level, scaling with 300% Melee Power. And its casting speed has been adjusted from 1.1 to 1.5 (this comes out to about a 25% increase in casting speed).

Anyway, that's all I got for you right now for Sacred Fist!

How come you dropped the light damage and not the force? I mean I guess lore wise force makes more sense, but light kinda fits a bit more thematically, though I cant imagine it will actually make any difference in terms of gameplay. Also Cha to attack and damage is a great addition!

[Willan]

Hi friends, happy Wednesday, quick updates:

Whirlwind Attack is looking pretty sharp (thanks Steelstar!) and now fits pretty seamlessly into your attack chain - it scales with attack speed correctly now and you're released as soon as its done to your next attack. We've also fixed a variety of bugs with its animations and animation speed across all combat styles. With that in mind we're adjusting its W bonus to 2W for both hits from 4W. Furthermore, we're adjusting Great Cleave up to 4W. The feats end up as fun mirrors of each other, requirements wise:

• Great Cleave requires +4 BAB, Cleave, Power Attack, STR 13+ (because PA). 1 hit, 4W.
• New Whirlwind requires +4 BAB, Mobility, Dodge, DEX 13+ (because Dodge). 2 hits, 2W each.

Pretty neat, eh?

What this means for Sacred Fist is that the Exalted Whirlwind ability is going to move to 1W for each hit, and keep its cooldown matching Cleave. Avenging Whirlwind (the tier 5) will now share its cooldown with the Whirlwind Attack feat (rather than Great Cleave), apply 1 stack of Vuln per hit (so 2 total), and be adjusted to 2W for each hit.

We're doing this shuffle to try and move Great Cleave and Whirlwind Attack towards some sort of parity, and hopefully this is a good first step.

Anyway, back to Sacred Fist: the level 6 feat Divine Dream now grants Charisma to Attack/Damage while centered. Furthermore, we're adjusting Ki Explosion: it now deals 1d6+3 Fire and Force damage per caster level, scaling with 300% Melee Power. And its casting speed has been adjusted from 1.1 to 1.5 (this comes out to about a 25% increase in casting speed).

Anyway, that's all I got for you right now for Sacred Fist!

Is it possible to get offhand and doublestrike to properly apply on all cleave type attacks? That would do a lot close the gap between 2wf and 2hf and make the feats desirable again.

[TPICKRELL]

...

Anyway, back to Sacred Fist: the level 6 feat Divine Dream now grants Charisma to Attack/Damage while centered.

A Charisma Build in most difficult content will be unable to have a meaningful tactics DC. Except in raids where a Tank is expected, this means that the Charisma build can't protect themselves, and are likely going to be dead, a lot (or hiding in the back letting real dps toons do the heavy lifting).

So, this build has to be Str based Cha as second stat in order to have a meaningful trip or stun. It needs a Cha Trance to be at all effective, not Cha to hit and damage. Without the extra 8-10 DCs from a battle trance, it's really hard to get DCs that are an effective survival tool.

If the SSG goal is to make a flavor only wrap pally, this will be ok. If you want this to be a real option for building a dps toon, it needs access to a Cha battle trance, not just Cha to hit and damage.

[Lynnabel]

Is it possible to get offhand and doublestrike to properly apply on all cleave type attacks? That would do a lot close the gap between 2wf and 2hf and make the feats desirable again.

I believe these do actually work with these abilities. Doublestrike especially so ever since its revamp a few updates ago.

[Lynnabel]

How come you dropped the light damage and not the force? I mean I guess lore wise force makes more sense, but light kinda fits a bit more thematically, though I cant imagine it will actually make any difference in terms of gameplay. Also Cha to attack and damage is a great addition!

I am sticking with Force because I think its makes for a good parity between the 2 existing ki spells, both of which use Fire and Force. That being said, it would be cool if Light of Glory added Light to all 3 of them, so I'm gonna make that happen :P

[jackatthekilns]

Just throwing this out there. Rather than Radiant Savant I think it would be interesting to have Enlightened spirit from the warlock tree in here and treat it as if Path of Light is a "pact" and let the class have access to the aura and other parts of Enlightened spirit.

Also I think it would be great if Grand Master of Flowers abilities that state "If you are in X stance the effects are doubled" was updated to include the Path of Light.

If you don't do this with Sacred Fist, please put this idea on the whiteboard of ideas. Finding another interesting place for an ES or ES mix tree would be a very fun idea.

[Propane]

Avenging Whirlwind (the tier 5) will now share its cooldown with the Whirlwind Attack feat (rather than Great Cleave), apply 1 stack of Vuln per hit (so 2 total), and be adjusted to 2W for each hit.

This seems awkward - Why not keep it with Great Cleave?

Exalted Whirlwind is currently with Cleave - correct?

For a DEX ish build (needed for two handed fighting) and in robes - you are more likely to want dodge and mobility --> Whirlwind that going the PA/Cleave/Great Cleave route.
This underminds some of the good changes to Whirlwind-
KoTC had the cooldowns correct - IMO.

This tree was lacking DPS, having the combo Avenging, Exalted, Whirlwind feels about right (current have alt on Lamannia with this) - please keep this chain intact-
Otherwise - Exalted should not share a cooldown...

The updates to the Great Cleave and New Whirlwind are great and seemed balance - the mis-matching cool downs are my issue.

[Havocthedemon]

Hi friends, happy Wednesday, quick updates:

Whirlwind Attack is looking pretty sharp (thanks Steelstar!) and now fits pretty seamlessly into your attack chain - it scales with attack speed correctly now and you're released as soon as its done to your next attack. We've also fixed a variety of bugs with its animations and animation speed across all combat styles. With that in mind we're adjusting its W bonus to 2W for both hits from 4W. Furthermore, we're adjusting Great Cleave up to 4W. The feats end up as fun mirrors of each other, requirements wise:

• Great Cleave requires +4 BAB, Cleave, Power Attack, STR 13+ (because PA). 1 hit, 4W.
• New Whirlwind requires +4 BAB, Mobility, Dodge, DEX 13+ (because Dodge). 2 hits, 2W each.

Pretty neat, eh?

What this means for Sacred Fist is that the Exalted Whirlwind ability is going to move to 1W for each hit, and keep its cooldown matching Cleave. Avenging Whirlwind (the tier 5) will now share its cooldown with the Whirlwind Attack feat (rather than Great Cleave), apply 1 stack of Vuln per hit (so 2 total), and be adjusted to 2W for each hit.

We're doing this shuffle to try and move Great Cleave and Whirlwind Attack towards some sort of parity, and hopefully this is a good first step.

Anyway, back to Sacred Fist: the level 6 feat Divine Dream now grants Charisma to Attack/Damage while centered. Furthermore, we're adjusting Ki Explosion: it now deals 1d6+3 Fire and Force damage per caster level, scaling with 300% Melee Power. And its casting speed has been adjusted from 1.1 to 1.5 (this comes out to about a 25% increase in casting speed).

Anyway, that's all I got for you right now for Sacred Fist!

I’m a little wary of the smaller damage but hopeful that the increased speed and efficiency still makes it good. To be honest, it’s just a cool animation on monk why is why we love it. I just hope it will still be worth using if I’m wasting 3 feats on it. Also, I would wonder if anyone actually uses cleave and great cleave anymore. Like truly, taking those feats. Most thf just swing away and hit everything in front of them anyway, and their “cleave” attacks are really just clickies from enhancements and epic strikes. Does anyone even bother wasting those feat slots?

On the topic of CHA to hit and dmg, I mean 7 ap in the Feydark tree got us that. That was never really the issue, it’s the fact that the other melees get tactics bonuses and pally does not. They don’t have a trance unless they dip into fvs. And again, the double strike boost is just..so bad. Everyone uses the reaper boost which puts you at 100% - what this lacks is a haste boost which causes them to spend points into vistani.

[SocratesBastardSon]

That being said, it would be cool if Light of Glory added Light to all 3 of them, so I'm gonna make that happen :P

I love the idea of making Whirlwind something of a DEX-based cleave, and a feat that now becomes usable for a wider variety of builds.

Any chance Light of Glory could be a toggle? That way players could still choose to use fire for when it is more desirable than light damage, i.e., fire vulnerable creatures. Visuals that match the two types - orange/red vs. white - would be nice too.

Thanks!

[Paxsmickey]

Any chance we could get a divine might trance that costs Ki?

I could see this being done as a level 1 spell (requiring builds trying to dip Sacred Fist at least 4 levels) or making it one of the tier 1 or 2 enhancements in the sacred fist tree.

Additionally, the 50 MRR cap to robes is debilitating to monks and the sacred fist in my opinion. Furthermore, it is wasted that sacred fist gain access to the sacred defender tree and with the level 6 deity feat you count as wearing medium armor for the sacred defender stances, because of the 50 MRR cap.

A suggestion: (for monks), add a +15 MRR cap to the adept/master/grand master of form feats for monks (maybe add +5 MRR cap to the lesser forms so a centered monk has a 100MRR cap base).

For sacred fist: add a MRR cap increase to the sacred defender tree (for sacred fists), add a MRR cap increase to the level 6 deity feat, and/or add a small MRR cap increase to the default Sacred fist levels.

At present, the sacred fist lacks dodge bonuses. I think sacred defender should offer dodge bonuses to compensate for the low MRR cap. I’ve run a 18 Paladin/2 rogue in light armor and a quarter staff and the 100MRR cap was hit very quickly, so even if a centered sacred fist has their MRR cap brought to 100, it’s still too low when the sacred defender tree offers so much MRR that is then wasted on the cap.

Additionally, since sacred fists cannot wield shields, the sacred defender enhancements for shield AC are wasted. I would replace those for the sacred fist with dodge bonuses and/or increasing the %AC bonus from being centered and adding CHA to AC.

Paladins are pretty feat starved, and I think it would help for the sacred fist enhancement tree to offer swords to plowshares as a free feat in tier 4 would be very beneficial (and would be similar to KotC offering Knights Training at the same level).

Have the items that offer X bonus when in Y monk stance been considered with the sacred fist? I understand that we want sacred fist and monks to fill different roles, but I wonder if there may be a way that sacred fist builds can also get some benefit from those bonuses without needing to splash a level of monk. I wonder if maybe the sacred defender tree could offer access to a sacred fist version of the mountain styles. The mountain stance bonuses fit well with what the sacred defender would want to be doing, and by making it a separate stance it would dissuade some players from dipping monk for access to those stance feats, while still giving monks their own niche (in that they can swap freely between the stances, would likely gain better benefits from theirs, etc.).

I like the idea of the smites, but when I tested them as a sacred fist last week the animations felt slow and it appeared to interrupt my attack chain. I’ll try to test again when I get a chance.

Realistically a sacred fist needs a strong DEX score for the TWF chain, which fits well with taking dodge, etc. Has there been any consideration put into giving the sacred fist enhancement tree the reed on the wind attack (the one that requires dodge, deals extra damage, and gives an insight bonus to dodge for several seconds).

[Nickodeamous]

Hi friends, happy Wednesday, quick updates:

Whirlwind Attack is looking pretty sharp (thanks Steelstar!) and now fits pretty seamlessly into your attack chain - it scales with attack speed correctly now and you're released as soon as its done to your next attack. We've also fixed a variety of bugs with its animations and animation speed across all combat styles. With that in mind we're adjusting its W bonus to 2W for both hits from 4W. Furthermore, we're adjusting Great Cleave up to 4W. The feats end up as fun mirrors of each other, requirements wise:

• Great Cleave requires +4 BAB, Cleave, Power Attack, STR 13+ (because PA). 1 hit, 4W.
• New Whirlwind requires +4 BAB, Mobility, Dodge, DEX 13+ (because Dodge). 2 hits, 2W each.

Pretty neat, eh?

We're doing this shuffle to try and move Great Cleave and Whirlwind Attack towards some sort of parity, and hopefully this is a good first step. !

Thanks for the update. so you are lowering the w's for WWA from 4 to 2. I think this makes sense since now we have less feats to take.

That last sentence kinda confuses me as a monk. I don't want a vanilla cleave attack. As you have it is about good. Please do not dumb it it down/nerf it or remove any features from WWA

Thanks,
Nico

[toapat]

I believe these do actually work with these abilities. Doublestrike especially so ever since its revamp a few updates ago.

Doublestrike yes, Offhand strike no. in fact cleaves and Smite Evil are explicitly banned from making offhand attacks. What is further confusing is Smite Evil itself has not significantly changed over time, but at some point between when i first significantly played and when i came back in november, Smite Evil became disallowed from making offhand attacks, presumably specifically when the rework to Glancing Blows and Strikethrough was introduced.

ok back to current testing:

Incinerating wave does ok but slightly underwhelming damage per cast, but has 2 significant issues: Projectile livespan is completely negated by Epic Defensive Fighting, and the Projectile goes in whatever direction it pleases, as i discovered by testrunning a White Plume Mountain to compare against my main.

So yes, i would like to see a wave of testing with Kibolt dealing 1d6+2 and 1d4+2 damage per cl, Incinerating Wave with 1d6+5 x2 per cl, and Ki Explosion dealing 1d6+7 x2 per CL

I would like to see the core 4: Defend against darkness grant Sacred Fist +1 Ki generation on Hit. Right now it feels like i want significantly more Ki generation then i can actually afford between my whirlwinds and wave, and that is before Ki Explosion gets buffed next week which will be the largest investiture available to Sacred Fist per usage.

Radiant Servant's capstone has still not been updated to +2 Wis and Cha

On a purely technical level, Knight of the Chalice should have its slayer of Evil dice updated to the modern standard of bonus elemental dice and added to the Enhanced Elemental Dice feat.

Again purely technical, i would also like to see Sacred Fist gain native proficiency in Kamas and Shurikens, so they arent weirdly nonproficient with half the naturally centering weapons

[Tepi]

Again purely technical, i would also like to see Sacred Fist gain native proficiency in Kamas and Shurikens, so they arent weirdly nonproficient with half the naturally centering weapons

Then they'd have to rename the class to Sacred All Monk Weapons :P

[Eme]

Hi friends, happy Wednesday, quick updates:
With that in mind we're adjusting its W bonus to 2W for both hits from 4W.
Pretty neat, eh?
t!

more grim. Been gone since just after the combland update, now can't see me ever coming back, everything that was fun about my monk has finally gone

[elvesunited]

more grim. Been gone since just after the combland update, now can't see me ever coming back, everything that was fun about my monk has finally gone

Huh?

Whirlwind is changing from +4 W 1 hit to +2W 2 hits.

That's ( base multiplier ) x ( base damage ) + 4 x ( base damage ) + all other damage modifiers once.
to
( base multiplier ) x ( base damage ) + 2 x ( base damage ) + all other damage modifiers once twice.

That's still a significant upgrade to whirlwind.