Update 56 Preview 2: Dark Apostate Archetype

[Lotoc]

Thematically I love the alignment spells but its just unfortunate that by the time you get the DD enhancement that makes them work regardless of enemy alignment they've already started falling off due to mcl 10.
It would really be nice to have some 7th level+ alignment spells supported by the same enhancements, that or the MCL being raised, tbh such spells being added would actually help a bit with how skewed towards fire over light/alignment both FVS and Cleric end up at cap

[Pandjed]

Thematically I love the alignment spells but its just unfortunate that by the time you get the DD enhancement that makes them work regardless of enemy alignment they've already started falling off due to mcl 10.
It would really be nice to have some 7th level+ alignment spells supported by the same enhancements, that or the MCL being raised, tbh such spells being added would actually help a bit with how skewed towards fire over light/alignment both FVS and Cleric end up at cap

For MCL raise, there is the Master of Alignment feat in addition to 1/2 epic levels. So if you have an alignment domain, you could get some mileage out of it, though end heroics to mid epics may become problematic and at endgame I don't expect them to be good.

Makes me kinda wish, DD would be a alignment focus tree instead of dark/light focus, but that'd be way too much of a change at this point.

So I'd say: Dear devs, please consider new alignment spells on higher spell level, that scale better into epics. Isn't needed now (as there is always a deadline to be met), but for the long run, the ones we have will stay niche.


Btw, would it be possible to make the alignment spells stronger, if you actually have that alignment? Because the game rewards being true neutral for the most part.

[Kza]

Is the wis to hit and damage gone?

Why?

Had loved to be able go dark + war and not falconry. (And frankly i cant see it as op in any way- a nuker is way better in dps + reactive healing- but, its funnier to hit things imho!)

Am i missing something?

[LurkingVeteran]

Here's another way to look at it so we're all sure we're on the same page.

Before:
Against Good enemies: 0
Against Neutral enemies: 1d6+4
Against Evil Outsider enemies: 2d6+8

With T5 DD:
Against Good enemies: 1d6+4
Against Neutral enemies: 1d6+4
Against Evil Outsider enemies: 2d6+8

Okay, that was not how I interpreted it. Perhaps one could just write something like "will now damage damage enemies of the same alignment".

EDIT: Was really tired when I wrote this, I guess this mechanic somewhat bridges the gap between the smites, although there are a lot more evil outsiders than lawful ones...

[Propane]

Nope - I said that Warpriest wasn't changing. Originally I had plans to make it more castery but instead opted to support domain casting more in DD.

Lynnabel- what is you current thoughts on where the Warpriest tree is currently?

Do you feel is it is ok, or don't have the bandwidth to tweak now, or?

TIA-

Propane-

[Xezom]

So thought it was going to be a bit of a concern before i got a chance to play it, but now I'm going to confirm. DA has some pretty hard clear early due to it's lack of offensive presence. So I'm curious, from a design stand point, what is the anticipated early game tool DA is supposed to use? Auto-Attacks?

Once you hit Tier 3 the issue pretty much disappears, but until you have access to that point I almost recommend NOT using DA at all. Just go DD or warpriest til you have access to T3 then reroll. I hate that feeling. I would rather have a weak but usable option within the tree to play the style beginning to end rather than having to start with something else and later respeccing into what i actually wanted to play originally.


Suggestions:

-My suggestion would be to make the Darkfire SLA (Like the drow but wisdom Based) a T1 ability, or some offensive caster option for early game. Maybe cut tradtional caster in favor of a caster offensive option?

-Changing Cursed words to Curse SLA is good and bad. Good cause yay no save free SLA, Bad cause Mighty Turning doesn't make me want to take Enhanced Turning, where as cursed words (version 1) gave me a good reason to take it or at least to consider it.

-T5's are pretty lack luster for the tree's identity. This tree is undead so it innately has some a minor touch of negative focus simply due to that, but the majority of the tree is focused on debuffing, evil damage, and defense. Ward of Shadow is a perfect example of good identity because it's both defensive and focuses on alignment. Ultimate heresy for Gishes is also a good point as does BOTH evil AND debuffing. There's two points that are more my gripes (Necrotic devotion feedback is more of a personal opinion, but the Benediction point just feels totally out of place thematically with the tree as a whole):

Benediction. It just seems out of place. None of the rest of the tree focuses on negative damage or even negative healing. (It's all evil and debuffs and defense). Sure raising harm to be able to kill and have amped spell power ratio is nice, but it just feels out of place. Not to mention Alchemist AoE Harm SLA which can be maximized, empowered, empower heal, etc for free completely blows even this version out of the water (I know it's not a contest between trees, just giving a point of reference). In That tree it makes sense to have heal/harm/gildleaf amps, because the tree is all about pos/neg damage. Here it just feels weird. this point should have something to do with evil/debuff casters just like the Ultimate Heresy does for the on hit/gish.

Additionally, Necrotic devotion. Yeah I know most all caster trees have a +DC in it's T5, but all of your SLA's you get from this tree that have saves, have their save chance negated by the core 12 point making Necro focus only effect your non SLA offensive negative spells (if you choose to cast something like Contagion or maybe Destruction). This is fully my opinion and just how the build feels to me personally. I understand the class still has access to lots of Necro Spells, or that you can take the Death Domain, but I feel this spot would be better used expanding the debuffing/hexing/evil power fantasy more than giving a minor buff to inflict non-SLA/Death Domain spells. I will happily admit that I'm a little biased towards SLA theming over spellbook casting, so i know this point will have some disagreement. I just feel like as a tier 5 its' not fitting enough to justify it's placement here.


Overall, I really love this tree and the theme and feel. I love the feel of the evil priest cursing your enemies into oblivion and it's so close to being just that. It just needs a little bit of love at the start and top of the tree. I have 0 gripes about the middle 2-4 tiers really. I think those tiers really showcase what the tree is and it's identity, I just wish the t5's continued that a little better, and the early game supported full speccing from the get-go a little better. As is I give this iteration a 4/5 now having played it.

Sidenote/Bugs/Patch Note discrepancies : The patchnotes vs in game have some differences:

Mighty turning isn't in game, it's still Dark Judgement.
Blessing of the Shadows is now: 50/100/150 incapacitation range not 5 each level.
Ultimate Heresy no longer has applies the effect of Curse.
Possibly not a bug but worth noting: Pray for Mercy plays the animation, but will not damage a target if attempting to reapply it to a target who is already suffering from the spell effect you are casting. So if you have hit them with bane already and try to rehit them with it, the animation for Pray for Mercy goes off, but the damage does not.

[Archfae]

I feel like this tree is doing some really cool things thematically, but it falls short. There's no compelling reason to play it at the moment from both a power point or a flavor point. I care a lot less about the power budget since ultimately that can be changed in the future if needed, but flavor tends to not be changed as easily. This tree lacks juice. It's thematically a curse-wielder who's likely to go death domain and play as an instakiller. On paper this is an awesome theme. Use bestow curse (no fail) then throw an instakill. Then doom and then the same thing. But debuff based instakills are fairly lackluster, usually when you want debuffs you want it to tag multiple enemies to follow up with aoe removal - otherwise you are wasting too much time and sp to kill a single enemy. Additionally, a curse-wielder / debuff role character should have something to debuff raid bosses in a significant and meaningful manner imo.

My suggestions:

Contagious Curse - your bestow curse now is contagious, when cast on an enemy it explodes outward affecting all enemies in the vicinity with bestow curse (or if that's too powerful maybe give them the shaken effect).

Killing Curse / Boss Debuff - when you cast bestow curse on an enemy that has already been cursed, you inflict a killing curse upon them. They become more vulnerable to all non-good/light damage by 1% per stack up to a total of 5 stacks. (Or maybe you significantly reduce the AC value, or reduce the to-hit of the monster by 25% or something).

I've always loved the idea of dark priestess type character (it's one of my favorites from paper and pen). And debuffers are my absolute favorite role to play in rpgs. And I've increasingly leaned into playing flavor based characters so long as the power loss isn't too significant. But I just can't see myself enjoying playing this at the moment. It lacks enough juice to actually followthrough on fulfilling the flavor promises of the archetype. Please help it feel more like a curse-wielding master debuffer?

[Xezom]

I feel like this tree is doing some really cool things thematically, but it falls short. There's no compelling reason to play it at the moment from both a power point or a flavor point. I care a lot less about the power budget since ultimately that can be changed in the future if needed, but flavor tends to not be changed as easily. This tree lacks juice. It's thematically a curse-wielder who's likely to go death domain and play as an instakiller. On paper this is an awesome theme. Use bestow curse (no fail) then throw an instakill. Then doom and then the same thing. But debuff based instakills are fairly lackluster, usually when you want debuffs you want it to tag multiple enemies to follow up with aoe removal - otherwise you are wasting too much time and sp to kill a single enemy. Additionally, a curse-wielder / debuff role character should have something to debuff raid bosses in a significant and meaningful manner imo.

My suggestions:

Contagious Curse - your bestow curse now is contagious, when cast on an enemy it explodes outward affecting all enemies in the vicinity with bestow curse (or if that's too powerful maybe give them the shaken effect).

Killing Curse / Boss Debuff - when you cast bestow curse on an enemy that has already been cursed, you inflict a killing curse upon them. They become more vulnerable to all non-good/light damage by 1% per stack up to a total of 5 stacks. (Or maybe you significantly reduce the AC value, or reduce the to-hit of the monster by 25% or something).

I've always loved the idea of dark priestess type character (it's one of my favorites from paper and pen). And debuffers are my absolute favorite role to play in rpgs. And I've increasingly leaned into playing flavor based characters so long as the power loss isn't too significant. But I just can't see myself enjoying playing this at the moment. It lacks enough juice to actually followthrough on fulfilling the flavor promises of the archetype. Please help it feel more like a curse-wielding master debuffer?

Agreed. It's so close to the fantasy but just shy of it. I personally think tweaking the T5 a bit would solve that. Maybe make Benediction something like:

Benediction: Your dark prayer like spells evil energy now lingers within your victims. Pray for Mercy now inflicts a DoT for the same damage ever 2 seconds for 10 seconds.

Alt: Your dark prayers are so potent that they drain the very life essence of your foes. When Pray for Mercy effects an enemy, they additionally suffer 1 negative level.



I really love this trees theme and identity as a debuffer, and it's defintely a stand alone as a first of it's kind for that role, it's just lacking that last little bit of oomph to make it feel truly viable.

[cru121]

maybe a Death Knell effect? Or too nasty? Obviously it'd need some adaptation. If the subject fails the save and dies within the next 3 seconds, you gain <insert cool buff>.

[Archfae]

maybe a Death Knell effect? Or too nasty? Obviously it'd need some adaptation. If the subject fails the save and dies within the next 3 seconds, you gain <insert cool buff>.

That could be fun. Would be a more vampiric effect than debuffing though. Debuffing as an archetype is a severely underutilized role in DDO, and I'd love to see something viable with it that feels fun and interactive to use.

So for something like the effect you suggest, maybe when it dies within that 3 seconds, it spreads a curse or debuff of some other sort to nearby enemies?

[Xezom]

maybe a Death Knell effect? Or too nasty? Obviously it'd need some adaptation. If the subject fails the save and dies within the next 3 seconds, you gain <insert cool buff>.

Definitely an interesting concept. Like you said would need some adaptation since monsters do not go unconsious in DDO. I'm hesitant to think of something like an instakill tho cause as mentioned earlier, insta-kill builds get stale very very quickly.

[Xezom]

That could be fun. Would be a more vampiric effect than debuffing though. Debuffing as an archetype is a severely underutilized role in DDO, and I'd love to see something viable with it that feels fun and interactive to use.

So for something like the effect you suggest, maybe when it dies within that 3 seconds, it spreads a curse or debuff of some other sort to nearby enemies?

how about: After slaying a curse enemy, your evil energy spills forth cursing nearby enemies and applying the effects of Pray for Mercy.

[Khurse]

Dark Consumption doesn't seem to do anything to undead targets. (Or non undead, but I assume it's not supposed to effect them?)
I don't have Turn Undead gear on this toon, so maybe it needs to pass a TU check to work?
But I'm not getting any kind of message in the combat log.

The "Inflict xxx Wounds" Spells aren't healing me in Shadow Form.
They don't say they are in the combat log.

The 'harm" spell does say it heals me for " 234 points" but it doesn't actually give me any HP
I've toggled shadow form on, off, back on again, nothing changes

[Archfae]

how about: After slaying a curse enemy, your evil energy spills forth cursing nearby enemies and applying the effects of Pray for Mercy.

I'm not a fan of this because pray for mercy is just damage. A debuffer / curse user should primarily be fulfilling that flavor fantasy through debuff effects. Things like shaken, bestow curse, something unique like incoming damage multiplier, etc.

We have a million and one different builds that just do damage; I don't want to see just another one of those when this archetype has so much promise of being a true debuffer with just some small tweaks.

[Xezom]

I'm not a fan of this because pray for mercy is just damage. A debuffer / curse user should primarily be fulfilling that flavor fantasy through debuff effects. Things like shaken, bestow curse, something unique like incoming damage multiplier, etc.

We have a million and one different builds that just do damage; I don't want to see just another one of those when this archetype has so much promise of being a true debuffer with just some small tweaks.

I'll give you that and defintely agree DDO does not lack for damage as a whole. Another alternate would be something to expand on Pray for Mercy/debuffs, say:

Binding Prayers: Your prayer like spells now also inflict foes with the effects of Binding Chains if they were already effected by their effects.
-or-
Weakening Words: When enemies are effected by your Pray for Mercy they also receive the effects of Contagion/1d3 Vuln stacks/1 neg level/etc.


Simply tying the effects to Pray for Mercy as that seem like it'd be an easy place to add additional effect to spells since it is an add on already, fits with the spells you're expected to be casting, and a contingency check in place on it already. I personally don't like level drain or just vulnerability cause one slips into vamp territory and the other is... well to be frank... unimaginative.

[Archfae]

I'll give you that and defintely agree DDO does not lack for damage as a whole. Another alternate would be something to expand on Pray for Mercy/debuffs, say:

Binding Prayers: Your prayer like spells now also inflict foes with the effects of Binding Chains if they were already effected by their effects.
-or-
Weakening Words: When enemies are effected by your Pray for Mercy they also receive the effects of Contagion/1d3 Vuln stacks/1 neg level/etc.


Simply tying the effects to Pray for Mercy as that seem like it'd be an easy place to add additional effect to spells since it is an add on already, fits with the spells you're expected to be casting, and a contingency check in place on it already. I personally don't like level drain or just vulnerability cause one slips into vamp territory and the other is... well to be frank... unimaginative.

I love both of those. Maybe a random contagion or various toggles to pick a specific disease to inflict? Mass binding chains would be an amazing debuff. Either of these would satisfy the theme/flavor for trash mobs. There'd still imo need to be some sort of meaningful raid boss debuff utilizing the curse theme to make it fulfill the flavor point.

I really hope this receives the polish it deserves because I think it could really shine in the fun/flavor department with just a bit of love.

[hit_fido]

Contagious Curse - your bestow curse now is contagious, when cast on an enemy it explodes outward affecting all enemies in the vicinity with bestow curse (or if that's too powerful maybe give them the shaken effect).

This is a good idea. Some way to apply an aoe curse would be compelling. Instead of Benediction put in a tier 5 called "Cursed Homily" that upgrades Cursed Words to apply as a circular area of effect.

[Xezom]

I love both of those. Maybe a random contagion or various toggles to pick a specific disease to inflict? Mass binding chains would be an amazing debuff. Either of these would satisfy the theme/flavor for trash mobs. There'd still imo need to be some sort of meaningful raid boss debuff utilizing the curse theme to make it fulfill the flavor point.

I really hope this receives the polish it deserves because I think it could really shine in the fun/flavor department with just a bit of love.

Ditto, I've got high hopes and hoping it can get just a touch of love cause it's right there. I think the toggle/multiselector for what disease would be pretty cool. I'm partial to the toggle since debuffers should really change their debuffs based on the situation and that would help promote that.

I thought the Binding Chains would be nice. Yes it's a VERY powerful spell especially in AoE but it would take some set up as you would have to hit them twice with a certain spell effect.

For raid boss debuffs... I drew a blank lol I'm not a raider myself, but I know Vulnerability is always good. I just feel like it's getting to the point where it's everywhere so adding another source just seems like an easy out.

[ShadowFlash]

The loss of WIS to hit & dmg sucks, but I love Mighty Turning in as well. Is Prayer as an SLA really worth anything? I see the flavor point, but considering there's no real Meta Magics to apply to it, is it "really" worth anything? I mean... it's essentially just a free Quicken. ditch the SLA entirely, and bring back the WIS to atk & dmg.

[cerocruz]

Hello folks, was testing out Dark Apostate earlier and wasn't sure if this is the right place to share any bugs or not. I tried using the in game help but the window appears blank for me and my friend and doesn't load anything to send a bug report that way, not sure if this was known already or not by the team.

New archetypes are a very cool idea I hope SSG continues with and I wanted to share feedback on stuff I've tested so far.

Dark Apostate Bugs:

Prayer SLA shares cooldown with the Prayer spell.

Bane SLA shares cooldown with the Bane Spell.

Taking Benediction from T5 DA Tree Causes Harm to do no Damage or Healing. Casting on self with Shadow Shrouding on only causes the restore effect, not the hp healing.

Inflict Mass does not heal self, only party members with Shadow Shroud.

Return to Dusk does not have any cooldown timer to show that's it's been used already.

Return to Dusk can harm you if you drop out of Shadow Shrouding. Not sure if being able to drop out of form while incapacitated should be allowed since you cannot turn it on while incapacitated.

Inflict Spells can be casted on an enemy undead to heal but Harm is not castable on an enemy undead. Not sure if there's any way to avoid accidentally casting the heal on undead or not.

Thanks in advance!!