Update 56 Preview 2: Sacred Fist Archetype

[Lynnabel]

Quicken will not help pure monks, and I feel that adding a feat tax to these very underwhelming abilities is a bad idea. Why not make their animation quickened from the start? They deal so abysmal damage anyway that it won't matter much, but at least I won't die of boredom while watching the animation play.

I am making changes here for Sacred Fist - if pure Monk happens to benefit, then that's okay, I don't expect anything here to be viewed through the lens of "how does this help pure monks."

[Propane]

Hello-

I created a lv 7 on Lamannia and leveled up to 20.
I few thoughts-

- starter gear should be "monk" not paladin -
- really miss Divine Sacrifice - would much rather have that than the smites - the AP spend of 3+6 for limited number of smites is hard to justify.
- like Light of Glory - make sense from a theme and game play point of view
- like faster movement - good idea to help with the feel of play style


suggestions
remove both T1 extra Smit and T3 Exalted smite
move Instinctive Defense to T1 spot just opened up
Replace T3 Exalted smite with Divine Sacrifice
Bring over for the open T3 spot something like a Radiant Flourish, Shattering Strike, Opportunity Attack, or handwrap version of Quick Strike
Removed Critical Mastery and place defect arrows in that spot (Defect is way to high in the tree)

[Kielbasa]

Quicken will not help pure monks, and I feel that adding a feat tax to these very underwhelming abilities is a bad idea. Why not make their animation quickened from the start? They deal so abysmal damage anyway that it won't matter much, but at least I won't die of boredom while watching the animation play.

This!! And adding a spell point cost to abilities that do not innately cost spell points is weird.

Also sacred fist needs some passive ki gen in the tree somewhere preferably low hanging fruit or one of the first few cores. It would be nice to be able to reliably open a fight with ki bolt or incinerating wave.

[Pandjed]

I am making changes here for Sacred Fist - if pure Monk happens to benefit, then that's okay, I don't expect anything here to be viewed through the lens of "how does this help pure monks."

It would be smart to expect it, though. For years ki-casters have been mostly neglected and even though the last changes were an improvement, it was from horrible to bad. So when these abilities, which have been associated with monk are now taken and being improved to benefit another class more than they were at monk, many players that like the concept of a ki-caster will bring up the one class that echoes in all ki-spells and in the same vein will also vent some pent up frustration at the same time.

Henshin mystic is a good tree, but it's so good in quarterstaffing, that the ki-spells are more or less shoehorned in by this point, as they never got enough love to feel good when using them.

Personally, I will expect that the ki-spells will still be a waste of time to use, breaking attacking animation as a DPS need to have a high reward. But in the same vein, if I use quicken on a ki spell, will it cost SP and ki at the same time?




TL;DR: You can't take an ability that was exclusive for one class, put it into another one, and don't expect that ppl won't question any change to it with look of the original class.

[droid327]

Does Fire Shield: Hot reduce fire damage? Both wiki and compendium says FS: Hot reduces Cold damage, and vice versa. Patch notes say the opposite

The Ki attacks shouldnt be animation-gated...they should just fit into the natural flow of melee combat.

Quicken really does seem like an unnecessary feat tax considering Paladins dont get bonus MA feats like Monks. And you already have, what...TWFx3, IC:B, S2P, Precision is pro forma, likely MT if you want to go CHA based. And that's not even getting into Stunning Fist, Two Weapon Defense, Dodge+Mobility, etc.

Heck, I think Fists need a couple MA feats (6 and 12?)

The Ki spells are really what's going to define this build, I think. If you end up not even using them because you cant fit Quicken into your feat schedule, and they're a major DPS loss without it...then you're back to where we were in Preview 1 where the entire subclass just feels flat and boring, a reductionist Monk

[Havocthedemon]

Just here saying that the Double Strike boost still seems out of place. It should be the Divine Might since we are losing it from KOTC and Paladin has zero tactics bonuses. Double Strike boost is all but useless - I’d take haste boost over that any day. Remove that and give us one of those two things, thanks.

[Lynnabel]

It would be smart to expect it, though. For years ki-casters have been mostly neglected and even though the last changes were an improvement, it was from horrible to bad. So when these abilities, which have been associated with monk are now taken and being improved to benefit another class more than they were at monk, many players that like the concept of a ki-caster will bring up the one class that echoes in all ki-spells and in the same vein will also vent some pent up frustration at the same time.

Henshin mystic is a good tree, but it's so good in quarterstaffing, that the ki-spells are more or less shoehorned in by this point, as they never got enough love to feel good when using them.

Personally, I will expect that the ki-spells will still be a waste of time to use, breaking attacking animation as a DPS need to have a high reward. But in the same vein, if I use quicken on a ki spell, will it cost SP and ki at the same time?




TL;DR: You can't take an ability that was exclusive for one class, put it into another one, and don't expect that ppl won't question any change to it with look of the original class.

Henshin uses SLAs which don't increase in SP cost when using metamagics. So no, it will not.

[Duhboy]

I agree on Holy retribution. As it is, I don't see how Sacred Fist really changes mechanically from KOTC, other than losing the strongest stuff. Sure you might be using handwraps now instead of some variation of sword but mechanically, its identical aside from needing KI to cast cleaves that were free before.

Sacred Fist is meant to be a more spellcaster orientated paladin, I think RS is fine. Warpriest wouldn't make much sense since a lot of the stuff is either kinda rubbish or mirrored already. Personally I'd rather they just kept KOTC and changed the stuff in Sacred Fist so there isn't overlap but i'm not hopeful. Bard and cleric get to have 2 similar trees with synergy (DD and the new one + Spellsinger and the new one). Paladin has only had one and a half unique trees since the changed enhancement system came out and even when it gets a variation, most of it is copied from KOTC. I think the combination of the new tree + tank tree + healer tree will be fun, but I can't say that i'm not a little disappointed that the new variation isn't a little more original.

If that's the case, then why would I, let alone anybody would want to play a subpar spellcaster with some healing capabilities? If I want to play a spellcaster that can heal then I would play a cleric, fvs, bard, alchemist, etc. I.E. anything BUT a paladin.

Warpriest would offer way more than Radiant Servant could. With Warpriest, Sacred Fist Paladins would keep divine might, have +10% sacred bonus to hp, haste SLA, righteous weapons line, doublestrike, magic backlash, smite foe w/ add ons including Ameliorating Strike (AoE heal strike), etc.

[Pandjed]

Henshin uses SLAs which don't increase in SP cost when using metamagics. So no, it will not.

Was not asking about the SLA, but the spell (so Sacred Fist version).

[Propane]

As I was working a build - the min DEX reequipments for the two weapon fighting chain came to mind.

The Archetype pretty much forces you into two weapon fighting - 15 min DEX with 17 for the upper two tiers.

These types of builds are already feat starved and attribute thin - any thoughts on reducing the cost?
Newer players could be become frustrated with trying to make one with out tomes / etc..

A few thoughts-

- ranger auto grants the two weapon fighting feats - this could go along ways here
- the selection of the Archetype comes with a +2 DEX adjustment

[Propane]

So I copied my level 32 Monk to Lamannia who is LG and used a +20 Lesser heart of Wood to TR into a Sacred Fist
I was able to take the first level as Sacred Fist, but when talking to the Life Shaper from that point on and trying to select Melee->Paladin as my new class, I get the report of "(Error): Subclass mismatch! Report this bug!".

This issue is probably also present for when switching to other archetypes when you lesser TR,

I tried something similar..

I took my LV 20 Clunk (17 cleric / 3 monk) - copied over - and tried using a +20 heart to go 20 Sacred Fist.
Ran into the same issue - could only take the 1 Sacred Fist level - ended up making a 16 cleric / 3 monk / 1 Pal (Sacred Fist).

Interesting that 1 LV of Sacred Fist makes hand wraps a Favored weapon and also unlocks the Warpriest Righteous Weapon line.

I might end up trying a Sacred Clunk!

[misterski]

I tried something similar..

I took my LV 20 Clunk (17 cleric / 3 monk) - copied over - and tried using a +20 heart to go 20 Sacred Fist.
Ran into the same issue - could only take the 1 Sacred Fist level - ended up making a 16 cleric / 3 monk / 1 Pal (Sacred Fist).

Interesting that 1 LV of Sacred Fist makes hand wraps a Favored weapon and also unlocks the Warpriest Righteous Weapon line.

I might end up trying a Sacred Clunk!

That's because you get Path of Light as an autogranted deity feat at level 1. It's odd that a character can have multiple deities but that's been the case forever.

[Gljosh]

Sounds cool, I like the ability to get some more Healing Amp through Past Lives.

This will be great for my normal Q-Staff based characters.

[Tepi]

If that's the case, then why would I, let alone anybody would want to play a subpar spellcaster with some healing capabilities? If I want to play a spellcaster that can heal then I would play a cleric, fvs, bard, alchemist, etc. I.E. anything BUT a paladin.

Warpriest would offer way more than Radiant Servant could. With Warpriest, Sacred Fist Paladins would keep divine might, have +10% sacred bonus to hp, haste SLA, righteous weapons line, doublestrike, magic backlash, smite foe w/ add ons including Ameliorating Strike (AoE heal strike), etc.

I agree with that. Nobody is going to go much past burst and cure sla simply because paladin doesn't have the tools to become a healer. I was talking more thematically than gameplay wise. I think going into RS a bit will be worth it for cure sla and burst but uncapped cures is kinda pointless when paladin only gets cute serious. This tree isn't going to magically turn paladin into a healer and anyone going 40 points in it would be better with a cleric. Honestly this whole variation seems kinda lazy. Also adding defense stuff to sacred fist kinda makes little sense when it has a full tree dedicated to defense.

It seems weird to me that they made this variation which is neat but them added a tree that seems to be 80% what the old tree had. Obviously this variation shouldn't be stronger than base paladin but what is the point in making a tree so similar?

[Dandonk]

I am making changes here for Sacred Fist - if pure Monk happens to benefit, then that's okay, I don't expect anything here to be viewed through the lens of "how does this help pure monks."

Fair enough. I just don't see how these poorly performing abilities can be of any help whatsoever to any build, regardless of class.

[Alternative]

Quicken really does seem like an unnecessary feat tax considering Paladins dont get bonus MA feats like Monks. And you already have, what...TWFx3, IC:B, S2P, Precision is pro forma, likely MT if you want to go CHA based. And that's not even getting into Stunning Fist, Two Weapon Defense, Dodge+Mobility, etc.

This is serious, if it can't take dps stuff + dodge line of feats, it won't be playable at end game. Being a cloth melee it's going to need at least 2 extra or autogranted feats. Since it's limited to wraps, maybe it could get a twf line like a ranger does? Although half a number of monk extra feats would be more in theme I guess. They could come at late levels if multiclassing is a concern, but something needs to be added here.

[Lotoc]

This is serious, if it can't take dps stuff + dodge line of feats, it won't be playable at end game. Being a cloth melee it's going to need at least 2 extra or autogranted feats. Since it's limited to wraps, maybe it could get a twf line like a ranger does? Although half a number of monk extra feats would be more in theme I guess. They could come at late levels if multiclassing is a concern, but something needs to be added here.

Two Weapon Defense or Swords to Plowshares being granted in cores or the attack/damage enhancements on the lefthand side could help a lot.
Paladin has always been pretty feat starved, I guess at least the autogranting of completionist frees up a feat but there's a reason the current KotC grants Knight's Training (TWF and SWF have more feats to take than 2hf), Shot on the Run (So many ranged feats to take) and alternatives to Cleaves and Great Cleave (takes 2 feats/3 feats respectively).
Moving Paladin feat progression into a very feat heavy character archetype (cloth melee) is asking for problems when you can't fit in the dodge>mobility>spring attack line to help with your dodge stat.
Honestly I kind of feel the level 6 deity feat is kind of underwhelming and could do with doing something besides just letting you use a grand total of 3 enhancements in Sacred Defense.
Seriously I'm not joking the only thing Divine Dream currently does is let you use the three Greater Sacred Defense enhancements, which many Sacred Fist builds won't be even be going for.

[Pretty_Good_Old_One]

Hi,
apologies if this has already been found:

I did a little more testing with Sacred Flame, and I am consistently seeing no fire damage when I hit undead (skeletons and zombies in Korthos, Saltmarsh Skeletons and Shadowyboss in Saltmarsh) or Iron Defenders (Korthos and Harbor). I put on Min's Handwraps (1-4 fire damage) and turned on Sacred Flame and went back to Saltmarsh.

Fighting rats, crows, smugglers - I got handwrap damage, fire damage, and fire damage. Fighting Skeletons and Shadowboss, I only got handwrap damage and the smaller fire damage (1-4). I turned sacred flame off in the middle of the fight, and I still got handwrap damage and 1 fire damage. I turned it back on, and fought a rat and skeletons at the same time - rat took handwrap damage, fire damage, fire damage... skeletons only took handwrap damage, fire damage.

It seems the sacred flame damage is a slightly different type that only affect living creatures (like poison?) I also did not see any sacred flame fire samage when I hit altar's in Heyton's rest with sacred flame, but I did see it with ember weapons.

Is Sacred Flame supposed to only affect living creatures?

[Havocthedemon]

Hi,
apologies if this has already been found:

I did a little more testing with Sacred Flame, and I am consistently seeing no fire damage when I hit undead (skeletons and zombies in Korthos, Saltmarsh Skeletons and Shadowyboss in Saltmarsh) or Iron Defenders (Korthos and Harbor). I put on Min's Handwraps (1-4 fire damage) and turned on Sacred Flame and went back to Saltmarsh.

Fighting rats, crows, smugglers - I got handwrap damage, fire damage, and fire damage. Fighting Skeletons and Shadowboss, I only got handwrap damage and the smaller fire damage (1-4). I turned sacred flame off in the middle of the fight, and I still got handwrap damage and 1 fire damage. I turned it back on, and fought a rat and skeletons at the same time - rat took handwrap damage, fire damage, fire damage... skeletons only took handwrap damage, fire damage.

It seems the sacred flame damage is a slightly different type that only affect living creatures (like poison?) I also did not see any sacred flame fire samage when I hit altar's in Heyton's rest with sacred flame, but I did see it with ember weapons.

Is Sacred Flame supposed to only affect living creatures?

What happens if you have the enhancement that makes it Light damage? All functions normal?

[Lynnabel]

Hi,
apologies if this has already been found:

I did a little more testing with Sacred Flame, and I am consistently seeing no fire damage when I hit undead (skeletons and zombies in Korthos, Saltmarsh Skeletons and Shadowyboss in Saltmarsh) or Iron Defenders (Korthos and Harbor). I put on Min's Handwraps (1-4 fire damage) and turned on Sacred Flame and went back to Saltmarsh.

Fighting rats, crows, smugglers - I got handwrap damage, fire damage, and fire damage. Fighting Skeletons and Shadowboss, I only got handwrap damage and the smaller fire damage (1-4). I turned sacred flame off in the middle of the fight, and I still got handwrap damage and 1 fire damage. I turned it back on, and fought a rat and skeletons at the same time - rat took handwrap damage, fire damage, fire damage... skeletons only took handwrap damage, fire damage.

It seems the sacred flame damage is a slightly different type that only affect living creatures (like poison?) I also did not see any sacred flame fire samage when I hit altar's in Heyton's rest with sacred flame, but I did see it with ember weapons.

Is Sacred Flame supposed to only affect living creatures?

This is indeed a bug, great catch.