Do the hounds get... Less insane?

[Merlin-ator]

Last night I was doing my first HCL. I had already statted out a CON-based dwarf TWF ranger. I was using the starter Ember Greataxe until I could pull some Dwarven/Battle Axes. 73 hp at level 2. I was in Redemption on Elite and a Hound spawned in the end fight. Me, my group member, and both of our hires weren't enough to stop that thing from two-shotting me. Neither were crits, so that makes an average of 42 damage per hit at level 2.

My group member did get it, but this still seems wrong. By old-school DDO standards, a 1st-life being two-shot on elite by a red is just something that happens sometimes. But standards have changed, and even if they hadn't, DDO no longer allows players to get enough AC to matter until you have like 6PL, an absurd amount of optimal gear, and have basically built your entire build around being an AC tank. Not something possible in HCL unless you no-life it.

Do the hounds' damage ever get to manageable levels, or is the correct solution at every level to just Alt-F4 when you get that hound notification? It's the first and only one I've seen so far.

[Cernunan]

The hounds do get less irritating by about lvl 3, but you really need to build for Xtra hp and defenses, even more so thrn previous sesasons..

Honestly, the over powered nature of the lvl 1-3 hound experience really does seem to be a money grab ploy, as the easiest way to deal with the houndss to gold roll to 3, then use store remedies to survive. This season seems to me to be the biggest money grab to date. It's almost mobile game lovl
of quick micro transactions

[Nebless]

73 hp at level 2. I was in Redemption on Elite

Ok, Redempiton lvl 1 quest on elite a lvl 3 quest, you're a lvl 2. So far no problem, BUT the Hounds spawn 2 levels ABOVE the quest level so it was you at lvl 2 vs a lvl 5 hound .....

I think most of us are staying away from Elite setting in Korthos because of that. The trick is to be at a level where you're on or 1 lvl over the quest level to make the hounds manageable.

[ekaterina]

As was just said - elite at those low levels when you don't have much gear is not a safe move. In fact elite tends to be too dangerous in general if one is solo and not very well geared.

As to the question about whether the hounds get less insane - there are levels where they get worse. At level 5 they start to put damage over time on you. So if you can't kill the hound rapidly you are in even worse trouble than just because of its debuffs. And kiting it even if done perfectly doesn't remove the DoT just prevents bites. At level 9 I have read they get a lot harder in general and for at least 1-3 levels are more of a challenge. Not an issue for a decent group that is cooperating but a potential problem solo maybe even at "hard" difficulty.

[Nebless]

At level 5 they start to put damage over time on you.

I think the DOT's start right out of the gate; at least for me it did, very first hound in the very first dungeon at lvl 1. That was one of the reason's people were complaining they were too overpowered in Korthos vs new characters.

The only time I didn't see any DOT's was when the hound bugged out and didn't show.

[marinersfan]

Last night I was doing my first HCL. I had already statted out a CON-based dwarf TWF ranger. I was using the starter Ember Greataxe until I could pull some Dwarven/Battle Axes. 73 hp at level 2. I was in Redemption on Elite and a Hound spawned in the end fight. Me, my group member, and both of our hires weren't enough to stop that thing from two-shotting me. Neither were crits, so that makes an average of 42 damage per hit at level 2.

My group member did get it, but this still seems wrong. By old-school DDO standards, a 1st-life being two-shot on elite by a red is just something that happens sometimes. But standards have changed, and even if they hadn't, DDO no longer allows players to get enough AC to matter until you have like 6PL, an absurd amount of optimal gear, and have basically built your entire build around being an AC tank. Not something possible in HCL unless you no-life it.

Do the hounds' damage ever get to manageable levels, or is the correct solution at every level to just Alt-F4 when you get that hound notification? It's the first and only one I've seen so far.

Same thing happened to my bear druid at level 2 in stopping the sahuagin. 2 rapid hits, dead.

They do get more manageable, mostly because player power increases quite a bit as you fill out your enhancement trees. Unfortunately, as already mentioned, they also gain some new powers every few levels to keep you nervous. It seems for most the recommendation is to kite or nuke with spells (nuking is best due to the huge burst dps), rather than go toe-to-toe with one in melee (though I've seen very effective paladins and barbarians do just that a few times). I just took level 10, and in my opinion the first couple levels were the toughest so far. I did run WPM on E (base lvl 9 quest) and there was a noticeable increase in hound hp. I was in an awesome group, so we still killed rapidly before it could even think about chomping anyone, so can't comment on their damage output.

Borderlands quests are generally faster, I'd recommend doing those first to try to minimize hound encounters in the early going. Try to get to level 3 before doing korthos. Ideally have some sort of burst dps attack to whack them with when they appear. Since there's a general timer for when the hounds will spawn, the best thing you can do early on is try to finish the quests as fast as possible and get out before the hound shows up.

[C-Dog]

Sorry for your loss.

The answer is... yes and no.

Many players don't find them "insane" to start with, so you may be starting off on the wrong foot; find that problem, fix that, and they'll be easier from the start.

But they're still surly, so not something to underestimate nor to approach lightly, especially considering the rules on HC. Glass cannon builds are not a wise choice: if you figure you only have a 1% chance to die, that's a losing proposition - you're going to do more than 100 quests, so at 1%/ the odds are against you. Get the % as close to "0" as you can.

I think the DOT's start right out of the gate; at least for me it did, very first hound in the very first dungeon at lvl 1...

You're the first person to report DoT's that early - you sure that's what they were, Damage over Time?

Before Quest Level 5, Hounds apply stacks of Vulnerability, but it's been consistently reported that DoT's don't show until 5.

I think most of us are staying away from Elite setting in Korthos because of that. The trick is to be at a level where you're on or 1 lvl over the quest level...

I see Elite Korthos all the time, and run same np.

The "trick" is to get in and get out before a Hound spawns.

...I was in Redemption on Elite and a Hound spawned in the end fight...

As with any HC season with "special" features, there are tactics that make this season easier.

1) Quest like you're on a mission to beat the clock; no hound = no problem. Don't dawdle, don't pause, don't detour to stop for that optional chest or breakables or anything you don't have to - there are no Korthos quests (except Misery's) that you can't reliably beat the Hound (and in Misery's you should only get one).

2) Keep a timer going - either an internal one, or a literal one. If you feel it's getting near "time" for a Hound (3-5 min for the 1st, 5 min+ after that), STOP AND WAIT before starting a big fight. Maybe even back up, so you don't trigger any mobs around the next corner. A Hound by itself is more than enough - you don't need to add anything to that challenge.

2.5) Choose your battleground. You have ~10 seconds between the first howl and the hound, pick somewhere nice and open. Maybe near water, so the target can jump in while others range (or possibly just bug them out?). Put your back to a wall and hope they spawn in the wall, done.

3) Make sure the entire party is ready to gank them when they appear. When someone hears the Howl, they should post it; when someone posts, the party should gather to defend as a group. If you're with a party that runs away from the target, /quit that party.

4) If possible, range them. Whether with an actual ranged weapon or as a caster, if you don't get close they can't hurt you (as much - DoT's will show up later). You're a Ranger, get a decent bow* and play it safe.

(* You can find Keen weapons on the AH for not too much. Magical Beast banes are a different matter, but they're there too. As a Ranger, consider taking Magical Beasts as your 1st or 2nd Favored Enemy for that extra little oomph.)

a CON-based dwarf TWF ranger. I was using the starter Ember Greataxe until I could pull some Dwarven/Battle Axes. 73 hp at level 2. I was in Redemption on Elite ...

So, you're not built for a lot of Str-to-Damage, which means you're starting at a big disadvantage there over "real" melee builds (which will start with ~+4, or that doubled, to damage).

What I do to help in Level 1 quests, I'm grabbing Level 2 in The Harbor Solo's before I go to Korthos. Ransack The Miller's Debt and then run Explosive Situation, get to 2. (If you have the boots, run Home Sweet Sewer. Don't run Arachnophobia - long quest, you want to develop your DPS to beat the Hound in that one.)

Both of those first ones have end chests, so you'll then have some plat to buy a real weapon. 2-handed or dwaxes (which are cheap). Grab some half-decent platemail too - you're not using Evasion etc. yet, so grab the defense where you can. (Heck, consider a plate-armor Tempest until you do get Evasion - they work well.)

I'd also suggest taking a Fighter dip as your 2nd level. 4 AP into Kensai gets you a {8 to Hit/+8 Damage} burst, which is MASSIVE at that level, and puts you on an even playing ground with Hounds. (And it works for any attack, so even without PBS your Ranged pew-pew turns into something real.)

(Fighter 3 (& 8+ AP into Stalwart Defense) is a diff discussion, but an attractive one considering HC goals (i.e. go to either 18 or 19, then TR asap).)


Then, might as well make sure you're Lvl 3 before exiting the gate in Korthos to the longer quests where a slow party = a Hound. After Collaborator you should be close to 3 - run Cannith Crystal a second time and get the Bracers of Aid - +11 HP for a big fight is better than 10% more HP at Level 3 - or you can also use them to save a down party member - both nice.


Moving forward from there, I've become a disciple of the church of Blood Tribute, which would mean 2 levels of Barb and 8 AP. +150 HP on demand - yes please tyvm.

That's now as much as 5 non-Ranger levels (Ftr 3/Bb 2), but this is HC, not "live", so you're not looking at "highest DPS = fastest leveling", you're looking at "100% survival rate = win".

Use a character planner if you're going to go off-pure - make a plan, use the plan, squeeze everything you can out of it.


GL, and haff fun stomin' da cassul!
o/

[Nebless]

You're the first person to report DoT's that early - you sure that's what they were, Damage over Time?

Before Quest Level 5, Hounds apply stacks of Vulnerability, but it's been consistently reported that DoT's don't show until 5.

Nope, you're right, vulnerability not DOT's. My bad.

[C-Dog]

Nope, you're right, vulnerability not DOT's. My bad.

NP, easy confusion when you're in the middle of combat and (if anything like me ) in panic mode.

Glad to hear the "common wisdom" is confirmed.

[Kraki]

NP, easy confusion when you're in the middle of combat and (if anything like me ) in panic mode.

Glad to hear the "common wisdom" is confirmed.

Until just a few minutes ago, I believed that the DoTs didn't arrive until higher levels but I just got a Fire dot in a Borderlands Elite quest. It wasn't a LOT of damage but it did hit me.



Screenshot link
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KAh...ew?usp=sharing

The Vulnerability and DoT had expired by the time I took the screenshot sadly so I didn't get a capture of the debuff icons.

[Merlin-ator]

Hi everybody. I gave it another shot, and I'm currently level 3 (almost 4) with all of Korthos Elite under my belt. I'll be doing Keep before Harbor. Apparently the Hounds aren't guaranteed to spawn on a timer, sometimes they do and sometimes they don't.

While I can't say I like the idea of HCL wiping all of my progress due to bad luck, it's nice to have a decent server population and to not feel pressured into advertising or running Reaper - A diff I'd almost never run if it weren't for the out-of-Reaper benefits (if you have THAT many RP, why do you need the extra goodies? Further, don't Reaper Enhancements defeat half the purpose of the Deliberately Unfair difficulty setting?). Unfortunately, this HCL seems to have imported the Reapers into EVERY quest AND the explorer areas, but I guess you win some, you lose some.

Hopefully I can get my 100 favor - After that, everything else is a cherry on the sundae.

I just wanted to take a moment to respond to C-Dog: Thanks for the tips! It was really helpful and I think it gave me what I needed to make it through Korthos with my character sheet intact and unburned.

Many players don't find them "insane" to start with, so you may be starting off on the wrong foot; find that problem, fix that, and they'll be easier from the start.

It was the average of 42 dmg/hit, no crits, in a level 1 quest. Also, they're pretty tanky (unless +3 STR is really that bad at this level) and can spawn with champion buffs, some of which are pure hax on their own. It made a lot more sense after Nebless explained the scaling, but that indicates to me that the scaling's math needs adjustment if it front-loads the difficulty that much.

As with any HC season with "special" features, there are tactics that make this season easier.

1) Quest like you're on a mission to beat the clock; no hound = no problem. Don't dawdle, don't pause, don't detour to stop for that optional chest or breakables or anything you don't have to - there are no Korthos quests (except Misery's) that you can't reliably beat the Hound (and in Misery's you should only get one).

2) Keep a timer going - either an internal one, or a literal one. If you feel it's getting near "time" for a Hound (3-5 min for the 1st, 5 min+ after that), STOP AND WAIT before starting a big fight. Maybe even back up, so you don't trigger any mobs around the next corner. A Hound by itself is more than enough - you don't need to add anything to that challenge.

2.5) Choose your battleground. You have ~10 seconds between the first howl and the hound, pick somewhere nice and open. Maybe near water, so the target can jump in while others range (or possibly just bug them out?). Put your back to a wall and hope they spawn in the wall, done.

3) Make sure the entire party is ready to gank them when they appear. When someone hears the Howl, they should post it; when someone posts, the party should gather to defend as a group. If you're with a party that runs away from the target, /quit that party.

4) If possible, range them. Whether with an actual ranged weapon or as a caster, if you don't get close they can't hurt you (as much - DoT's will show up later). You're a Ranger, get a decent bow* and play it safe.

(* You can find Keen weapons on the AH for not too much. Magical Beast banes are a different matter, but they're there too. As a Ranger, consider taking Magical Beasts as your 1st or 2nd Favored Enemy for that extra little oomph.)

The timer thing feels like it kinda works, but I've noticed that hounds don't always spawn on a timer. Sometimes it's at about the 3, 5, or 10 minute mark, and sometimes you're in a quest for almost 20 min and don't get a single spawn. Also, my Misery's Elite run ended up with 3 hounds, and I don't think I've ever seen faster (minus the part where I had to walk back down because I forgot to re-get the Redemption quest for the cloak and the quest share glitched out).

I grabbed a bow in a quest - Can't use it yet (ML4), but I have it. I doubt it'll do much good, as I have 8 DEX and no part of my build except the other half of my main class is designed to shoot arrows, but I'll carry it just in case.

I didn't know Hounds were Magical Beasts. I would have thought they were Fey, given that that's the first word of their name, but the wiki insists that they're all Magical Beasts. I took Reptilian due to the prevalence of kobolds in low levels, and I usually swap it out ~level 10-16 (no later than just after Mired in Kobolds) using the free token, but I might swap it out sooner than that this go-round - Especially since I'm not crazy enough to risk the infamous >100-damage Lightning Bolts the Shamans can cast in Elite Harbor quests, and this is NOT a build for doing well in Reflex saves. My other "survivability" build idea (Mastermaker/Harper Melee Arty) was, but I first have to unlock Harper and Artificer, which has to be done in Epic and near-Epic respectively.

(Fighter 3 (& 8+ AP into Stalwart Defense) is a diff discussion, but an attractive one considering HC goals (i.e. go to either 18 or 19, then TR asap).)

Moving forward from there, I've become a disciple of the church of Blood Tribute, which would mean 2 levels of Barb and 8 AP. +150 HP on demand - yes please tyvm.

That's now as much as 5 non-Ranger levels (Ftr 3/Bb 2), but this is HC, not "live", so you're not looking at "highest DPS = fastest leveling", you're looking at "100% survival rate = win".

Use a character planner if you're going to go off-pure - make a plan, use the plan, squeeze everything you can out of it.

Those are some good thoughts, but I think my build is largely set at this point. I might rearrange a few feats, spend a few less points in Tempest and more in a Barb tree, but I think I'm doing about as well as I can and messing with the software tools is a pain. Maybe I'll use it for my 2nd life, if I make it that far. Final build, as planned, is 12 ranger/6 barb/2 ftr, ordered 2Rgr->1 Barb->2Ftr->10 Rgr->5 Barb. By my reckoning, this strikes a balance between getting my TWF feats ASAP, getting some other combat feats early (Cleave, Great Cleave), and giving me extra room to grab the Kundarak dmark for that sweet, sweet Radiant Forcefield. though after reading Blood Tribute I might want to move that second Barb level earlier to get that ability early. I've been playing on and off since 09 or so (mostly on until Shadowfell, mostly off after), but somehow I've never done any barbarian except for the first few levels to try it out. Can you use Restoration scrolls/pots to remove the Blood Tribute penalty, or is it strictly until next rest?

[Kayze]

Honestly, the over powered nature of the lvl 1-3 hound experience really does seem to be a money grab ploy, as the easiest way to deal with the houndss to gold roll to 3, then use store remedies to survive. This season seems to me to be the biggest money grab to date. It's almost mobile game lovl
of quick micro transactions

What?

Bryon can solo hounds up to level 3 when Frenzy takes over.

[adamkatt]

They have quite a few hp on r4 but can be kited with some ease.

[slarden]

The best way to deal with hounds is to pile on the damage as soon as it spawns.

Dots start at level 5 - at least I didn't experience any until that time. Before that I've only seen vulnerability stacks.

Hounds get a big hp buff at adjusted quest level 11 much like reapers.

My main soloing account is loaded (all the global trees, 32 pt build, etc. etc.) and I am running a 15 ranger / 3 paladin / 2 rogue in a static group to help a guildy get wings. At 11 I am 6 ranger / 3 paladin / 2 rogue specifically to be optimized for the tougher hounds and I do notice alot of death notices around 10-12 compared to other seasons. Since the account is loaded I can get all the low hanging enhancement tree favored enemy bonuses and with burst dps ranger is really good against hounds.

One of my ftp accounts is missing several xpacs and doesn't really have any of the goodies owned at an account level so I ran a paladin to 20 solo for plat, some gear, relics, tapestries and other things I can do to help out the static group. Also because I really like the 20 cloak and I have no hardcore cloak on that account. Paladins are probably better than ranger in general going to 20, but not as good against the hounds because they aren't evil and there isn't alot of burst single-target dps available in the paladin tree against non-evil creatures.

As an example the hounds in the gianthold and orchard wilderness have significantly more hp than anything else there - probably 10x the hp or more. The kinetic hounds especially in those wilderness zones did quite a bit of damage to me for the difficulty and hounds typically would apply 2-3 dots in those zones before I take them down depending on how many crits I get. Some hounds dot me immediately upon spawning, others don't.

The nice thing about paladin is the higher MRR and lay-on hands to heal up, but the best answer for hounds is high burst dps so you don't need to heal up at all.

So I would expect your experience to get better by level 4 then when you start running level 11 content (9 on elite or 11 wilderness zone like sands) you will notice a spike in hp and they get more dangerous.

There are threads showing hound dot bugs that can't be worked around. Teleport and ddoor can help you get out of those jams. A wand of teleport can be used by any build if you are willing to spend the points. Human with dragonmark of passage allows you to get that for free with ap tax.

They have quite a few hp on r4 but can be kited with some ease.

Kiting doesn't sound optimal due to the dots, am I missing something here?

[adamkatt]

Kiting doesn't sound optimal due to the dots, am I missing something here?

Some of them behave like fear reapers when you are close.. ie no dot a lot of the time.

[Enoach]

Something that we discovered early on is that the following can be helpful

1. Summons - even low level. If you have multiple people that can cast these are great agro magnets
2. That Flaming Sphere Spell that has always been of very little use - Seems to draw them in
3. Turret - Artificer spell also seems to draw them - It was down the hall when we pulled back on hound warning and it ran down the hall to get it after porting in.

Based on this having summons of appropriate level seems to be helpful giving the group the ability to concentrate on killing it while it kills the expendable resources.

[marinersfan]

What?

Bryon can solo hounds up to level 3 when Frenzy takes over.

This is not true against the champion spawned hounds. My Byron got killed in misery's peak and the hound still had like 90% hp. He died after getting 1-2 swings of his sword off. Then the hound ran over and 1-hit incapped me.

As OP states, some of the early hounds are cheese OP.

[rish]

as the easiest way to deal with the houndss to gold roll to 3, then use store remedies to survive

I'll fully admit, first character I gold rolled up to 3 (didn't really cost that much), then the next 3 characters had enough xp stones from daily rolls to do the same...at this point I probably have enough saved up to go straight to 5 if I wanted to, guess the daily VIP rolls have come in handy for this season.