Major balance changes and HC6 (update 56 concerns)

[rabidfox]

With MMOs I accept that nerfs, balance passes, and new content are the nature of the game experience. With seasonal events like HC, I'd thought the development goal was minimal changes outside bug-fixes (and new content) to maintain a fair run for anyone involved during the season. Could we get some clarity on what the launch window and intent is with the various changes in u56 preview to several races and classes that will have an impact on HC if they go live during this season.

[brian14]

Tolero mentioned that TOEE 1 and TOEE 2 each will be broken into a series of shorter quests. I was wondering about how this will play out on Hardcore Server, assuming it is still up by the times Update 56 occurs.

[Oxarhamar]

With MMOs I accept that nerfs, balance passes, and new content are the nature of the game experience. With seasonal events like HC, I'd thought the development goal was minimal changes outside bug-fixes (and new content) to maintain a fair run for anyone involved during the season. Could we get some clarity on what the launch window and intent is with the various changes in u56 preview to several races and classes that will have an impact on HC if they go live during this season.

Yeah I don't think they should pause updates entirely just because HCL is up

[Karthunk]

Yeah I don't think they should pause updates entirely just because HCL is up

If they are going to butcher classes/races they most certainly should wait.

[rabidfox]

Yeah I don't think they should pause updates entirely just because HCL is up

If they are going to butcher classes/races they most certainly should wait.

These aren't changes that are made last second because of a bug, they're long planned out choices. The FvS, druid, Aasimar, Tiefling, etc. stuff will have effects on people's builds on HC that people have invested time and money(tomes/rerolls/etc.) into. Large balance stuff ideally should have launched with u55 before HC launched or whatever update follows HC6. On live, one just TRs and rolls with the punches over changes like these, on HC this could seriously effect someone's setup in the middle of their limited timed run. It reflects poor planning if the intent is to release these parts of the update mid-season.

[Dark_Lord_Mary]

No competition in the world, olympics, or professional sports, allows things to change during an active event. That would disqualify the entire event.

Example - one of the first teams to hit 5k this season was all FvS; they are on the leaderboards. To then nerf FvS mid competition is unfair to all the other FvS who are still actively competing.

at best these changes should be implimented by SSG in october when the event ends or rolled out to the live servers and HCL should be updated in october when the event ends.

Now - that would be 'Good Form' as they say. To change quests and classes and impliment nerfs during a competitive event would be 'Bad Form' and completely unfair to those of us who did not 'take a week off' to play 22/7 and get 5k in 4 days.

[Oxarhamar]

No competition in the world, olympics, or professional sports, allows things to change during an active event. That would disqualify the entire event.

Example - one of the first teams to hit 5k this season was all FvS; they are on the leaderboards. To then nerf FvS mid competition is unfair to all the other FvS who are still actively competing.

at best these changes should be implimented by SSG in october when the event ends or rolled out to the live servers and HCL should be updated in october when the event ends.

Now - that would be 'Good Form' as they say. To change quests and classes and impliment nerfs during a competitive event would be 'Bad Form' and completely unfair to those of us who did not 'take a week off' to play 22/7 and get 5k in 4 days.

I agree with that being bad form

I still don’t think the game should not have any updates because HCL is up

I’m not sure if it’s happened before or not

We don’t know when they are planning they could pump them out quickly or it could go through a few iterations of testing first

[Dendrix]

I'd assume update3 56 will launch October 25th

[Eelpout]

With MMOs I accept that nerfs, balance passes, and new content are the nature of the game experience. With seasonal events like HC, I'd thought the development goal was minimal changes outside bug-fixes (and new content) to maintain a fair run for anyone involved during the season. Could we get some clarity on what the launch window and intent is with the various changes in u56 preview to several races and classes that will have an impact on HC if they go live during this season.

Not to say they aren't big changes, the only things I could find was Archtype additions and TOEE break up. What am I missing?

[Cordovan]

With MMOs I accept that nerfs, balance passes, and new content are the nature of the game experience. With seasonal events like HC, I'd thought the development goal was minimal changes outside bug-fixes (and new content) to maintain a fair run for anyone involved during the season. Could we get some clarity on what the launch window and intent is with the various changes in u56 preview to several races and classes that will have an impact on HC if they go live during this season.

The notes in the preview are for Update 56, which will go live during the Hardcore season. Exact release date TBA.

[LT218]

Not to say they aren't big changes, the only things I could find was Archtype additions and TOEE break up. What am I missing?

Major nerfs to FvS, Cleric and Druid trees/spells/SLAs among other things.

Would definitely be poor form on SSG's part to make changes that like mid-HC. Talk about yanking the rug out from under peoples' HC plans...

The poor, bug-ridden initial implementation of the hounds mechanic has already cost them some veteran HC customers.

Wonder how many customers a mid-season gutting of the builds that HC players put serious time, effort (and $$ in some cases) into getting favor, leveling, and gearing up from scratch will cost them?

It's almost like SSG doesn't understand that you want to make changes that entice your customers to continue playing/paying, not frustrate them to the point of rage-quitting. Especially since it is very likely that HC players have a higher than average $$ spend rate.

[Eelpout]

Major nerfs to FvS, Cleric and Druid trees/spells/SLAs among other things.

Would definitely be poor form on SSG's part to make changes that like mid-HC. Talk about yanking the rug out from under peoples' HC plans...

The poor, bug-ridden initial implementation of the hounds mechanic has already cost them some veteran HC customers.

Wonder how many customers a mid-season gutting of the builds that HC players put serious time, effort (and $$ in some cases) into getting favor, leveling, and gearing up from scratch will cost them?

It's almost like SSG doesn't understand that you want to make changes that entice your customers to continue playing/paying, not frustrate them to the point of rage-quitting. Especially since it is very likely that HC players have a higher than average $$ spend rate.

Thank you. I didn't read close enough in the Lamma notes. Now I found them. Lot of slap, very little tickle.

[Kylin11]

Put the nerfs in 56.1 or whatever is immediately after hardcore. Softcore can live without the nerfs for an extra month or two. Announcing it now and then implementing it during the season messes with hardcore plans people have already sunk dozens to hundreds of hours into. And hardcore is a time limited event. At least with the immediate surprise stuff like hounds and champ mods those get figured out quickly by people investing a lot of time the first few days before more casual players have sunk a lot of time in.

Buffs are kind of more whatever since it at least doesn't make your plans worse. But even merely considering nerfs of this magnitude to be unannounced beforehand then release in the middle of a very popular time limited event when a lot of people will actually need all that time for some of the objectives lowers my respect for the devs a little.

[ekaterina]

My main current activity is the HCL so I hear you - but it may be going too far to say that whenever a season is active there needs to be a hold on things like class rebalancing.

Those of us like you and I that are paying attention to the forums have quite a bit of advance notice to plan around these changes. That isn't always possible, of course. But getting this notice well in advance is a lot better than having a character lose 25% of her effectiveness with no notice before the patch notes come out.

So to echo your point in a somewhat more limited way - SSG please remember those of us in HCL and don't toss in any nerfs or make any nerfs worse on very short notice. Give us a chance to level past the impacted levels or to TR away from a class that has been gutted.

[rabidfox]

Put the nerfs in 56.1 or whatever is immediately after hardcore.

That would be the ideal solution.

My main current activity is the HCL so I hear you - but it may be going too far to say that whenever a season is active there needs to be a hold on things like class rebalancing.

These aren't short term design stuff or exploit/bug fixes, these are things the devs/management knew well in advance and planned out before HC even launched this season. Altering peoples builds mid-season over planned out meta shake-up/nerfs/whatever is poor planning and is likely to make me consider where/how I should spend money in future HC seasons; why would I re-roll chests if an update might trash the character I'm working on and thus invalidate my plans for that gear? How I can expect a 5k character that's mainly played on weekends to reach that goal if SSG's philosophy is that classes/races could be nerf'd/overhauled mid-season? I'll likely still reach my goals and have fun, but poor management/planning choices like this need to be pointed out for they are.

[Kayze]

With MMOs I accept that nerfs, balance passes, and new content are the nature of the game experience. With seasonal events like HC, I'd thought the development goal was minimal changes outside bug-fixes (and new content) to maintain a fair run for anyone involved during the season. Could we get some clarity on what the launch window and intent is with the various changes in u56 preview to several races and classes that will have an impact on HC if they go live during this season.

The main classes affected (clerics and fvs) will still be fine after nerfs. Their main strengths (hp, strong sla, death ward, word of recall) are still untouched.

Tiefling's main advantage of bypassing fire immunity is also still there. Aasimar nerf will hurt but they will still have self-healing.

[Aelonwy]

That would be the ideal solution.
These aren't short term design stuff or exploit/bug fixes, these are things the devs/management knew well in advance and planned out before HC even launched this season.

True and its hardly fair play to the players.

Altering peoples builds mid-season over planned out meta shake-up/nerfs/whatever is poor planning and is likely to make me consider where/how I should spend money in future HC seasons; why would I re-roll chests if an update might trash the character I'm working on and thus invalidate my plans for that gear? How I can expect a 5k character that's mainly played on weekends to reach that goal if SSG's philosophy is that classes/races could be nerf'd/overhauled mid-season? I'll likely still reach my goals and have fun, but poor management/planning choices like this need to be pointed out for they are.

Good, second guess your spending habits on HC. I hope a lot of people do so. Class/enhancement/race changes should only happen mid season if there is an exploit. IMO this has been the worst season in an almost insolent disregard for non-elite players. Don't get me wrong, I am grateful they fixed the buggy mess they released upon us to start but I sure as heck resent being a bug tester on HC. Yes hardcore is synonymous with permadeath but its not synonymous with gimmicky extra, shoe-horned in mechanics to surprise shiv the players for DM funsies. Cut it out with the untested "surprises".

Surprise! next season will have Reaper difficulty ONLY. /jk or am I?

[ekaterina]

I don't like nerfs - and all Gods witness I've been hit by a lot of them over the years. I like nerfs a lot less when I am on hardcore - you aren't wrong at all. If the developers had these changes in mind well before the season started it would have been ...nice .... for them to have said something at least about any significant rebalancing.

Even if they didn't want to or couldn't mention details - to at least say that class X was being worked on and it might come out mid-season. We could have made educated guesses as to whether to expect the nerf bat or improvements.

But there is a lot more to the game than the HCL and I will stick to one point - I don't think it is fair to other players to have three month freezes on changes that they think will improve the game. Though I do not look at these specific changes and think "oh wow these are good they need to get them out without delay".

[Diarden1]

FVS, Druid and Cleric are so OP, it's ridiculous. As someone that plays a caster FVS, I'm agreeing with the changes.

That said. To Cordovan, Tolero, whomever reads this...

Gift every person in Hardcore a +20 Heart of Wood to reroll their characters when the change goes live. You mitigate the argument of folks that sunk time, money and effort into their characters to build entirely new, keeping the tomes that they purchased.

[Tanky]

Applying these nerfs in the middle of the hardcore season is terrible planning on SSG's part. Way to upset your player base for no reason. You could easily delay the class and race nerfs until hardcore is over. But nope. You do you.