Update 56 Preview 1: Sacred Fist Archetype

[Tanky]

To the people asking for this class to gain a weapon proficiency that isn't Handwraps, I don't see it as likely.

Long Sword is a possible option for Sacred Fist through the Follower of the Sovereign Host and the Whirling Steel Strike feat. But you'd also want to take Knight's Training, and now we're talking two feats for a feat starved class. Also, personally, I'd rather have the 50 PRR from Heavy Armor and not be restricted to 50 MRR. Even on a first life hardcore SWF Paladin, 267 PRR and 169 MRR is achievable. Giving up 35 PRR (net) and 119 MRR for Evasion is not worth it. Plus, the non-Sacred Fist has access to Divine Might for higher damage and tactics, and an insta-kill at T5.

[misterski]

Long Sword is a possible option for Sacred Fist through the Follower of the Sovereign Host and Whirling Steel Strike feats. But you'd also want to take Knight's Training, and now we're talking three feats for a feat starved class. Also, personally, I'd rather have the 50 PRR from Heavy Armor and not be restricted to 50 MRR. Even on a first life hardcore SWF Paladin, 267 PRR and 169 MRR is achievable. Giving up 35 PRR (net) and 119 MRR for Evasion is not worth it. Plus, the non-Sacred Fist has access to Divine Might for higher damage and tactics, and an insta-kill at T5.

Khorvaire Elves also get Longsword proficiency. Whirling Steel Strike also has 1 Monk level and Weapon Focus: Slashing as prerequisites, which isn't as bad as it sounds as monks get a few bonus proficiencies early on. but still probably not enough feat slots available to make it viable.

[Tanky]

Whirling Steel Strike also has 1 Monk level and Weapon Focus: Slashing as prerequisites

Yeah you'd have to splash monk. I forgot about Weapon Focus, which is yet another pain point, but at least you'd gain 1 feat from monk.

[NemesisAlien]

Dont forget evasion requires dex to work, no dex no evasion.

[misterski]

Yeah you'd have to splash monk. I forgot about Weapon Focus, which is yet another pain point, but at least you'd gain 1 feat from monk.

Splashing 2 levels of monks would give you 2 bonus proficiencies (SWF and WSS). Trying to figure out the right order of leveling to get the most out of it (probably level 1 and 6 monk, rest pally). Monks can't choose Weapon Focus starting out due to the 1 BAB prereq but their class skill choices and starting skill points are better than pally at level 1. Hmm, going to try this out on Lammania

[Jerevth]

Putting a bug comment here that I posted elsewhere:
-Deflect Arrows in the tier 4 has the Tier 5 "Violence Begets" description. Hopefully just the tool-tip? (It was late when I looked at the Lamama server)
-Smite; slow animation for a handwrap fighter. Pose to begin, hit, pose to end. Smite should be a two-inch punch for handwrap fighting. Otherwise it would be pointless to spend the EP.

Since MRR caps out so quickly, as pointed out above (Per Infiltraitor's observations), why not grant the ability to apply deflect arrows to melee attacks in general? It doesn't bolster PRR, but does provide a Kung-fu (Gung-fu, for the purists) thematic way to reduce incoming damage. I don't like the skill point spread and feat starvation Pallys have and putting together a first-life Palunk only illustrated that (decent strength, con, wisdom and charisma means base level intel so 1 skill point- that goes into Con...) Later lives with tomes it would be okay but still a derth of first life capability.

edited out ignore- oversight was pointed out below

Another concern: Most of the enhancements cost 2 EP in the tree. If I have time later, I'll look at the costs again and get a better idea (and share it here) but... a lot of two-pointers in that tree. Too many?

[misterski]

However... if Charisma was the source of Ki, rather than Wisdom, it would free up an attribute from "must have" status? (Spitballing ideas)

Charisma is the source of Ki for Sacred Fist (reread the post). If you splash monk then the higher of Cha or Wis will work.

[Lotoc]

Dont forget evasion requires dex to work, no dex no evasion.

Its still a paladin, you get fort/will/reflex saves from charisma

[drathdragon]

in the sacred fist enach selected %1 of mov speed per paladin level , but it seems not working.
the stat page says 119% of movement speed multipier but the toon seems slow as hell.

p.s. tried to log off/log in to see if fix it, but no. Still slow as a turtle in the sand.
p.s.s i made a 20 levels pure paladin

is it right ?

[Jerevth]

Charisma is the source of Ki for Sacred Fist (reread the post). If you splash monk then the higher of Cha or Wis will work.

Missed that: thank you!

Follow-up on points cost:

T5- 2 _ 2(3) _ na _ 2 _ 2 total of 9

T4- 2 _ 2 _ 2 _ 1(3) _2 total of 11

T3- 2 _ 2(3) _ 2 _ 1(3) _ 2 total of 15

T2- 2 _ 2 _ 1 _ 2 _ 1 total of 8

T1- 2 _ 1(3) _ 1(3)_ 1(3)_2 total of 13

C- 2 _2 _ 2 _ 2 _ 2 total of 12

Total of 68 EP.

[Nickodeamous]

I like it.

Dear Lynnabel, can we get this for actual monks too???? I think this has been a question I posed many times and I believe you actually replied and said you figured it out. Funny how Pallys get it, but again, here I am asking for it for my monk lol

Thanks!
Nico

[misterski]

Some differences between what's posted and what's on Lammania:

The cores look a bit different.

On Lammania:

Core 3: While Sacred Fist is active your weapons Bypass lawful + Good DR. No Byeshk DR bypass.
Core 6: Gain +3 Remote Disease charges and your Remove Disease now Applies Greater Restoration to your target (like KoTC)l. No Cold Iron DR bypass
Core 12: Gain immunity to Energy Drain (like KoTC). No Silver DR bypass.
Core 18: When you turn undead you and nearby allies gain +1 Ki on hit and +3 Ki on crit. No Adamantine DR bypass. No +5 melee power.
Core 20: +10 vs +5 melee power. +1W with weapons (not just handwraps). You absorb 25% of all fire damage. No bypass of Alignment DR.

Tier 2 Sacred Whirlwind does not apply stacks of Armor Destruction or Vulnerability and does not have a ki cost and does not count as a Light ki melee attack.
Tier 3 Sacred Smite is replaced by Exalted Smite (from KoTC).
Tier 3 Light of Hope: +1 Sacred Flame dice. Sacred Flame adds Ghostouch
Tier 4 Light of Hope changed to Light of Glory +1 Sacred Flame dice vs. +2 Sacred Flame dice

[K_9]

My thoughts


Good

• Keep Smite Evil
• Couple of Cleaves from new tree
• Gets DR removal from cores
• Evasion and improved Evasion
• Treated as "in heavy armour" while equipping no armour and centred. Less imporant for epics
• Ki Ability: Charisma
• Fast Movement
• Access to Radiant Servant for extra healing

Bad

• Lose immunity to negative levels from [KotC] (only partially ignored via existing deathward spell)
• Lose instant kill / debuff from Holy Retribution [KotC]
• Lose divine might [need to splash Cleric/FvS]
• Lose Remove Disease now applies Greater Restoration to your target. [KotC]
• No synergy with monk / unarmed fighting. Ie no Wisdom in tree and no meaningful access to Stunning Fist
• No CC
• Encouraged to go for Charisma to Hit/Damage but need magical training [feat or splash caster class] to get from Feydark tree
• No support for DCs. Ie you lose +3 sunder [KotC]
• Class is a KI tree, but does not have any use for KI!!
• Lose a gap opener. Lead the charge is helpful until get dire charge. Also monk gets Abundant Step
• No Dex support for Evasion

• Info
• Epic Destinys need support for handwraps/favoured weapons
• Maybe we can get a version of Quivering palm?

To make this work for me I'd be inclinded to splash probably 5 wizard levels, for magical training (into Char to hit/damage from Fey), Shield/Nightshield/Blur/Displacement/Haste and debateable undead healing.

[misterski]

Yeah you'd have to splash monk. I forgot about Weapon Focus, which is yet another pain point, but at least you'd gain 1 feat from monk.

Now that's I've tried it out and looked at the enhancement tree more closely on Lammania, if you're going to go SWF longsword you might as well stick with KoTC rather than Sacred Fist.

[Lynnabel]

Some differences between what's posted and what's on Lammania:

The cores look a bit different.

On Lammania:

Core 3: While Sacred Fist is active your weapons Bypass lawful + Good DR. No Byeshk DR bypass.
Core 6: Gain +3 Remote Disease charges and your Remove Disease now Applies Greater Restoration to your target (like KoTC)l. No Cold Iron DR bypass
Core 12: Gain immunity to Energy Drain (like KoTC). No Silver DR bypass.
Core 18: When you turn undead you and nearby allies gain +1 Ki on hit and +3 Ki on crit. No Adamantine DR bypass. No +5 melee power.
Core 20: +10 vs +5 melee power. +1W with weapons (not just handwraps). You absorb 25% of all fire damage. No bypass of Alignment DR.

Tier 2 Sacred Whirlwind does not apply stacks of Armor Destruction or Vulnerability and does not have a ki cost and does not count as a Light ki melee attack.
Tier 3 Sacred Smite is replaced by Exalted Smite (from KoTC).
Tier 3 Light of Hope: +1 Sacred Flame dice. Sacred Flame adds Ghostouch
Tier 4 Light of Hope changed to Light of Glory +1 Sacred Flame dice vs. +2 Sacred Flame dice

You are completely correct, I accidentally posted an old version of the tree.

[misterski]

My thoughts


Good

• Keep Smite Evil
• Couple of Cleaves from new tree
• Gets DR removal from cores
• Evasion and improved Evasion
• Treated as "in heavy armour" while equipping no armour and centred. Less imporant for epics
• Ki Ability: Charisma
• Fast Movement
• Access to Radiant Servant for extra healing

Bad

• Lose immunity to negative levels from [KotC] (only partially ignored via existing deathward spell)
• Lose instant kill / debuff from Holy Retribution [KotC]
• Lose divine might [need to splash Cleric/FvS]
• Lose Remove Disease now applies Greater Restoration to your target. [KotC]
• No synergy with monk / unarmed fighting. Ie no Wisdom in tree and no meaningful access to Stunning Fist
• No CC
• Encouraged to go for Charisma to Hit/Damage but need magical training [feat or splash caster class] to get from Feydark tree
• No support for DCs. Ie you lose +3 sunder [KotC]
• Class is a KI tree, but does not have any use for KI!!
• Lose a gap opener. Lead the charge is helpful until get dire charge. Also monk gets Abundant Step
• No Dex support for Evasion

• Info
• Epic Destinys need support for handwraps/favoured weapons
• Maybe we can get a version of Quivering palm?

To make this work for me I'd be inclinded to splash probably 5 wizard levels, for magical training (into Char to hit/damage from Fey), Shield/Nightshield/Blur/Displacement/Haste and debateable undead healing.

As Lynnabel posted, the version on Lammania is a bit different from what he posted.

Most of the DR has been removed from the cores and lawful+good dr was added to core 3. They made the cores look more like KoTC so you get the enhanced Remove Disease and energy drain immunity.

Also, since this archetype has Flurry of Blows, it means Stunning Fist is available as a feat to you.

Why do you need Dex for Evasion? Paladins get a save bonus from Charisma. You still need 17 Dex to get all the TWF feats. Sacred Fist is not only feat starved, it needs a lot of stats to be effective.

[QuantumFX]

Sacred Armor Mastery and Sacred Shield Mastery in the Sacred Defender could use some multiselector options:
- Sacred Armor Mastery / Sacred evasiveness - Adds +1 Dodge and Dodge cap per tier.
- Sacred Shield Mastery / Sacred Two Weapon Defense - doubles the bonuses for the Two Weapon Defense feat.

Also, why no option for a CHA based Stunning Fist?

[Havocthedemon]

I’ll leave the details to everyone else but holy **** on a cracker this is sweet as hell. I’ve multiclassed monk and pally dozens of times. Design wise this is fantastic flavor. I’ll probably play this even if it’s bad.

[Lynnabel]

Howdy all, happy Wednesday, its time for a quick Bugfix Roundup!

Note that nothing here is meant to be an adjustment to this archetype's design - that part comes later - this is all just bugs getting squished.

Bugs fixed so far (and therefore do not need to be reported):

• Path of Light is now granted automatically instead of being dragged and dropped to prevent UX problems
• sacred fist cores no longer cost 2 AP
• deflect arrows now has the right tooltip

If you see a bug that's not on this list, let me know! Happy testing

[Ipsum]

Played with it a bit more -
Pros
+The added damage on wraps from the sacred dice feels pretty good
+Getting cleaves will be nice
+The visuals are sick
+You can get really really tanky in mid heroics and still have damage
Cons
-Getting Improved/Greater TWF is a real pain with the dex requirement even with tomes since you basically need every stat at that point
-Smite needs some added damage to make up for the fact you are losing your offhand strike

Bugs
*The +5W cleave does exactly the same damage as a single attack
*My ranger spellbook is empty (I have spell slots but no spells to slot into them). I took class levels in this order (p=paladin, r=ranger, m=monk): prrmppprprrr

Suggestions
*Add a total of 40% offhand strike chance as part of the cores. This would allow players to forgo taking Improved/Greater TWF and only take TWF/Perfect TWF. This lessens the stat requirements for the class and makes it reasonable to play without dex to hit/damage.
*Add a way to increase the number of sacred fist dice in epics either via augs or eds
*Add some ki attacks, here are some ideas:
-Spend ki to ignite your inner ability for some stat bonus also makes you flamey think like ultra instinct or something
-Spend ki to explode doing damage around you that scales with sacred fist dice
-Convert all ki into temp HP
-Spend ki to subject a single target to a turn undead effect
*Some way to get turns back by punching things would be nice