Update 56 Preview 1: Stormsinger Archetype

[btolson]

Some other thoughts:

Other Bonus spells they should have access to: Gust of Wind, Fog Cloud, Sleet Storm, Solid Fog, Ice Storm, Cyclonic Blast.
These are just options to pick from when leveling up that weigh against your limited slots, not free autogrants, so there's no reason not to add a whole bunch of them. I use some of these on a sorc, not sure if I'd ever use them on a stormsinger where SP is so precious but maybe someone would. Options are good right?


Ranged Damage (shortbow support only, maybe) seems more thematically fit to pair with Stormsinger than current WC. Shooting off arrows of lightning and using hurricane-force winds to guide your arrows to devastating effect. Much more synergistic flavor. Maybe some space in stormsinger for these types of bonuses/abilities, and some retooling of WC to work with ranged better (and some retooling of WC in general, cuz it stinks).

[mikarddo]

Howdy friends, happy Thursday! I'm here to post some of our preliminary design changes! Note that all of this is subject to change, as are all things on the preview server.

Stormsinger:

• Step 1: Stormsinger needs to lose something. And I know, I know, saying it like that makes me sound like a comic book villain, but the underlying thread of feedback that I've gotten so far (and largely very much agree with) is that Stormsinger is too good for what we want an Archetype to be. We never ever ever want an Archetype to be strictly better than the base class at what the base class does. And right now, Stormsinger is shaping up to be way too strong. So, with that said...
  
  • Stormsinger will no longer get the upgrade feats for Inspire Courage and Bardic Aria as it levels. This means it won't get the following feats:
  • Improved Inspire Courage +1
  • Improved Inspire Courage +2
  • Improved Inspire Courage +3
  • Ballad Melody: Greatness
  • Inspiration Melody: Heroics
  • We hope that the loss of a significant chunk of its buffing potential helps Stormsinger fit into its role (DPS caster bard) without stepping on the support aspect of base Bard.

Thank you for the amazing feedback so far! If you have any further comments, questions, or suggestions, please feel free to post them here

That looks like a very fine compromise. If you want to be more a caster bard you get to buff slightly less. Slightly, because you still have the most important stuff like healing song, FoM song etc.

I see others suggesting instead to remove enchantment spells - but that would be a horrible idea imho. If you want to be more a caster bard you dont remove caster bard effects, obviously.

I am looking forward to trying Stormsinger.

[Grugmak]

So far I love the idea of these archetypes, I really like where you're going with them (them being similar to the elf/wood elf situation) where you get new build capabilities without having to really add a whole new class and mess up the completionist thing any more than it already is. They all need at least some minor work, but this one is the only one I can't really get behind so far. You're essentially making another spellsinger with extremely neutered buffing capability, no regen or SP regen song and instead of doing pure sonic damage (which already synergizes with various EDs and the mastery of x feats extremely well, not to mention having almost nothing immune or even resistant to it) now does cold (with a crapton of things that are either immune or ~50% resistant to) or lightning which admittedly is good, but you get 0 electric SLAs and bard has a very limited SP pool compared with other casting classes. Not to mention you are now having to pretty much focus on 3-4 different spellpowers/crits to make the most out of your casting ability (sonic/electric/cold/positive).

You then put this in place of swashbuckler leaving spellsinger which admittedly synergizes fairly well, and warchanter which does not synergize *at all* as your alternate trees. I agree with many of the earlier posts that this is basically a weaker lightning sorc and that's it.

Seeing as how bard is a hybrid style class with a unique song mechanic and you've basically just removed their light melee tree in the interest of creating yet another pure caster on a class with the lowest SP pool why not give it either a hybrid or specialization option and utilize the songs more?

Suggestions I would make:

1) Remove CC song options for this archetype, replace them with either channeled AOE, Instant AOE or Fire and Forget (implosion/wail proc over time style) AOE songs that do significant cold/sonic/electric damage DC based on perform skill scaling off a single spellpower or purely off perform skill converted as a form of spellpower with added effects as you see fit. - with this option add a means of faster song regen to go along with anthem

2) Revamp Inspire/Ballad songs and possibly add enhancements in the tree with multiselectors to make you able to synergize more with spellsinger (active buff, casting oriented, focused on the target) on inspire or warchanter (passive/always on, melee oriented, PBAOE on the bard) on ballad since both of these trees already focus on these 2 song types in this fashion OR you could completely reverse them and make stormsinger enhancements to inspire be the meleeish style active buff and ballad be the caster oriented pbaoe passive, the choice is yours.

3) Give a melee style selector option alongside the SLAs that fit the theme of the tree/archetype to include an option for a 2HF, 2WF or SWF selection that then locks you into that weapon style for the future tiers of these multiselectors, then give each weapon style its own theme to match the spirit of the archetype (just random spitballing on these: SWF be sonic based and gives some kind of proccing sonic damage or boost to cast spells off the proc and can proc your lightning strike (this is a proc on proc situation so obviously will trigger lightning strike less than pure casting), 2WF lightning themed, procs the lightning strike fairly frequently (2WF needs some love these days) at about the same rate you would get from pure casting (not same % base but same rough procs per minute casting as meleeing), and 2HF being a cold themed setup that runs in a similar vein to the warchanter cold attack styles can occasionally proc the lightning strike) any added damage/procs scale with the related spellpower - with these you can still leave the cores that are already listed as-is. Make the T5 version of this multiselector tree be an expanded crit range/multiplier that matches with the chosen melee style. To provide an example of what I'm talking about under this suggestion the T1 SLA multiselector would now have 1 of 5 choices: sonic blast SLA, niacs SLA, SWF melee style T1, 2WF melee style T1, 2HF melee style T1 and choosing any of the melee styles locks the multiselector for the following tiers to only allow that melee styles T2,T3,etc to be taken.

I mostly tried to make these suggestions to either fix the small SP pool problem or return the hybridized theme of bard back to the class rather than just giving another purely caster focused setup, these changes are also all possible to implement with the current tree setup almost as it is while giving you the option to hybridize or specialize as you choose and open up a whole lot of build options. As to the song revamps I wanted to make a suggestion that will make stormsinger songs completely different from vanilla bard songs so neither is "just better" than the other but they can both still maintain that support buffer role without negating/overwriting eachother if you have a bard and a stormsinger in the party.

[EinarMal]

Howdy friends, happy Thursday! I'm here to post some of our preliminary design changes! Note that all of this is subject to change, as are all things on the preview server.

Stormsinger:

• Step 1: Stormsinger needs to lose something. And I know, I know, saying it like that makes me sound like a comic book villain, but the underlying thread of feedback that I've gotten so far (and largely very much agree with) is that Stormsinger is too good for what we want an Archetype to be. We never ever ever want an Archetype to be strictly better than the base class at what the base class does. And right now, Stormsinger is shaping up to be way too strong. So, with that said...
  
  • Stormsinger will no longer get the upgrade feats for Inspire Courage and Bardic Aria as it levels. This means it won't get the following feats:
  • Improved Inspire Courage +1
  • Improved Inspire Courage +2
  • Improved Inspire Courage +3
  • Ballad Melody: Greatness
  • Inspiration Melody: Heroics
  • We hope that the loss of a significant chunk of its buffing potential helps Stormsinger fit into its role (DPS caster bard) without stepping on the support aspect of base Bard.

Thank you for the amazing feedback so far! If you have any further comments, questions, or suggestions, please feel free to post them here

Actually I think this is a good approach to the trade off.

[Jerevth]

Actually I think this is a good approach to the trade off.

It removes 2 class based feats without providing alternate gains in order to avoid making a class OP.
It would be better balancing to bring the Swashbuckler tree in and remove the spell singer, or modify the Storm singer and provide alternative feats to replace the two being removed, and still give value.
This is a new concept, and there will be (hopefully) lessons learned.

I didn't look at the other two trees to compare them to the original Bard enhancement Templates: were they changed some, too or are they identical and only Stormsinger is new?
If the templates were adjusted, that would be a better route than adjusting the underlying BARD foundation, I think.

[Aelonwy]

Actually I think this is a good approach to the trade off.

Doesn't bother me. So pure bard is a better buffer but has less spell selection via DPS options. That works for me, so a Stormsinger could go all spell caster if they wanted or elec/cold melee + situational casting. This does mean some people will prefer to exclude Stormsingers in favor of traditional bards from raid parties... just so people are aware of how this will likely play out in game on occasion. It doesn't bother me but I rarely raid.

[Aelonwy]

It removes 2 class based feats without providing alternate gains in order to avoid making a class OP.
It would be better balancing to bring the Swashbuckler tree in and remove the spell singer, or modify the Storm singer and provide alternative feats to replace the two being removed, and still give value.
This is a new concept, and there will be (hopefully) lessons learned.

I didn't look at the other two trees to compare them to the original Bard enhancement Templates: were they changed some, too or are they identical and only Stormsinger is new?
If the templates were adjusted, that would be a better route than adjusting the underlying BARD foundation, I think.

I'd rather loose either warchanter or swashbuckler like an either/or choice made at character creation. I personally would rather pair Stormsinger with Spellsinger (1st choice) or Warchanter (2nd choice) but I understand some people wanting the option of swash. Either way I'd be spending some points in Feydark.

[NightHiker]

This does mean some people will prefer to exclude Stormsingers in favor of traditional bards from raid parties... just so people are aware of how this will likely play out in game on occasion.

This is the one thing that worries me, because of the fact that archetypes will still show as the regular classes on the LFM panel and related features. I can see it being a source of grief if someone accepts a "bard" in a raid group because of the buffs, only to find out afterwards that they're stormsingers. I can see people getting kicked out by less than cavalier group leaders because of that. It's one reason I'd refrain from taking the buffs out, and instead go the route of removing the enchantment CC options, as many more people here also agreed on (while, again, fitting well with the theme: wanna control an inanimate force of nature? Well, that demands dedication and will leave less room to learn how to influence and control living beings' minds). Give them the storm related spells mentioned above to give them some soft CC options, but take away all charms, dancing and holds.

I'd also like to see the archetype modifying the songs to get rid of fascinate and like effects from the base class or the spellsinger trees to do something environmental related instead as well, but I realize that can be a lot of extra work. Then, again, I guess that's what early previews are for. There's already changes to the spellsinger tree to accomodate Stormsinger SLAs, so just go one step further and change/remove the enchantment effects in case of stormsinger or, if there's no tech for that, just add other options for them as mutiselectors.

There's some merit on the comments about Stormsingers having issues with spell points as well - maybe one way of fixing that is to give them some sort of temp mana procs on spell casting in the tree or maybe using songs to recover mana instead of fascinating mobs if stormsinger - like some sort of lightning rod absorbing mana from the atmosphere (one way to reinforce the theme of pure caster while minimizing the sp usage issue).

Cheers,
NH

[mikarddo]

This is the one thing that worries me, because of the fact that archetypes will still show as the regular classes on the LFM panel and related features. I can see it being a source of grief if someone accepts a "bard" in a raid group because of the buffs, only to find out afterwards that they're stormsingers. I can see people getting kicked out by less than cavalier group leaders because of that. It's one reason I'd refrain from taking the buffs out, and instead go the route of removing the enchantment CC options, as many more people here also agreed on (while, again, fitting well with the theme: wanna control an inanimate force of nature? Well, that demands dedication and will leave less room to learn how to influence and control living beings' minds). Give them the storm related spells mentioned above to give them some soft CC options, but take away all charms, dancing and holds.

I very much beg to differ. Unless I am misunderstanding the reduction healing song, fom song, manasong and many other buffs are not removed. Sure, the buffs removed matter - but more often have I seen a group want a bard for disco (THTH or VoD) so your argument could just as well go towards being kicked out for not having CC.

So, very much do not remove the CC from the bard - removing the buffs that Lynn has suggested is much better as far as I am concerned.

[NightHiker]

Sure, the buffs removed matter - but more often have I seen a group want a bard for disco (THTH or VoD) so your argument could just as well go towards being kicked out for not having CC.

There are other classes that can do that kind of CC you're talking about, though. You don't need bards necessarily or specifically for those things. However, there are no alternatives to the bard buffs in other classes.

Also, you'd not be completely removing CC from bards - you'd just be changing/reinforcing the theme - out go enchantment, in come more evocation based alternatives, if we add sleet and ice storm, gust of wind and solid fog. Which also gives more support for the cold side of the Archetype which is important for generating the electric damage procs together with the sonic ones.

EDIT: by the way, this comes from someone who has been playing sonic/electric/cold bards for more than ten lives in a row now - with soundburst, sonic blast and g shout, and also if you take into account BoGW, even if you ignore the holds and balls you still have plenty of CC options that inclusive work on things holds and balls don't. So I'd much rather lose some CC options that can be filled in by other classes than lose something only this class can provide.

EDIT 2: That said, IF just losing the enchantment spells is not enough of a hindrance, I'm willing to lose the buffs as well as long as we get those other cold/evocation spells to complement the spell book and/or tree. I love mass holds and dancing balls and use them a lot, but I think the other spells fit the theme better, so I'd be ok with this trade off together with the added DPS.

Cheers,
NH

[Axcarth]

There are other classes that can do that kind of CC you're talking about, though. You don't need bards necessarily or specifically for those things. However, there are no alternatives to the bard buffs in other classes.
...

This^! It really feels like if you're getting the traps mechanics off the Rogue Archetype to turn it into a fighter-ish. I mean, that is not all that they can do, but it's definitly part of their core.

... It would have made some sense to spend songs to unleash your Storm Power instead of making it all SP-based maybe? Like a Stormsinger that actually sings to create storms. But then you need a lot more (regenenerating) songs somewhere.
...

This makes all the sense in the world to me! This is Bard class what we are talking about, right? Make bards perform, make the songs bring the storm!!! Why to stick on the spell points mechanics when Bards have an unique system that can be further and better developed?

[NightHiker]

This makes all the sense in the world to me! This is Bard class what we are talking about, right? Make bards perform, make the songs bring the storm!!! Why to stick on the spell points mechanics when Bards have an unique system that can be further and better developed?

I'd love that - but aside for a better way to regenerate songs they'd have to get rid of their long winding animation for it to be actually useful on most questing scenarios. It's all probably more work than they're willing to do for an Archetype, though. Hope I'm wrong.

EDIT: one way to get this worked in the archetype thematically but that wouldn't change actual gameplay much is to have the "Lightning Strike" proc tied to a long duration song. At least this way you get the "make songs bring the storm" idea, and it also justifies the "alies getting the proc" portion as well. And if it's just once in a while the long animation to get it going would not be much of an issue.

EDIT 2: In any case, having songs in those new trees that proc new long duration area effects, whatever they are, seems to be a pretty good way to inject some new life into all kinds of possible bard archetypes and fits pretty well with the overall class idea. I'd look into changing as many of those enhancements in Stormsinger to be attached to songs, same way we have many buffs tied to songs on Spellsinger.

For example, a song that gives cold, sonic and electric resist and/or absorption in a radius around the bard would be something that fits the Archetype pretty well and gives something to enhance the flavor besides just dps, dps, dps. Same thing with a song that gives the same vulnerabilities to enemies - maybe as the other side of a multiselector.

Cheers,
NH

[Axcarth]

I'd love that - but aside for a better way to regenerate songs they'd have to get rid of their long winding animation for it to be actually useful on most questing scenarios. It's all probably more work than they're willing to do for an Archetype, though. Hope I'm wrong.

EDIT: one way to get this worked in the archetype thematically but that wouldn't change actual gameplay much is to have the "Lightning Strike" proc tied to a long duration song. At least this way you get the "make songs bring the storm" idea, and it also justifies the "alies getting the proc" portion as well. And if it's just once in a while the long animation to get it going would not be much of an issue.

EDIT 2: In any case, having songs in those new trees that proc new long duration area effects, whatever they are, seems to be a pretty good way to inject some new life into all kinds of possible bard archetypes and fits pretty well with the overall class idea. I'd look into changing as many of those enhancements in Stormsinger to be attached to songs, same way we have many buffs tied to songs on Spellsinger.

For example, a song that gives cold, sonic and electric resist and/or absorption in a radius around the bard would be something that fits the Archetype pretty well and gives something to enhance the flavor besides just dps, dps, dps. Same thing with a song that gives the same vulnerabilities to enemies - maybe as the other side of a multiselector.

Cheers,
NH

Great ideas! I hope some of these "resonate" on Devs.

[kmoustakas]

Why?

If you are going Stormsinger mostly casting then Spellsinger offers more spell casting support. If you want to mainly melee while being a Stormsinger, then thematically adding the cold/freeze functions of Warchanter also makes sense.

If you want to mainly melee with very little casting at all then regular bard warchanter + swash makes more sense then having any Stormsinger at all.

Now you could argue that having Stormsinger as an alternate bard tree rather than an archetype would have been better and I would agree but that isn't the design direction they went... so given the inherent options of the design Stormsinger replacing Swashbuckler makes the most sense. Perhaps sometime latter we will get something like Arcane Trickster (Bard + Rogue) in which case replacing Spellsinger on an Arcane Trickster would make sense. Because the casting of a trickster is mostly to hide, or distract, or confuse not to do inherent spell dps.

What I've been doing is spellsinger 41, swashbuckler 12 for uncanny dodge, deflect arrows, bard speed, orb stance (and some awesome bonuses to balizarde), the rest either in feywild or racial tree. Both uncanny dodge and deflect arrows reduce deaths in r10 by quite a bit.

[Kalapurka]

@lynn

Can you buff a little bit the warchanter tree, like you did with the battlepriest tree on the cleric pass that you guys are doing.

[Aelonwy]

What I've been doing is spellsinger 41, swashbuckler 12 for uncanny dodge, deflect arrows, bard speed, orb stance (and some awesome bonuses to balizarde), the rest either in feywild or racial tree. Both uncanny dodge and deflect arrows reduce deaths in r10 by quite a bit.

Hadn't tried that, I was leaning into what it would be like to make a Main tree Stormsinger. So 41 Stormsinger, 3rd core spellsinger for some more utility and extra evocation DC ending with Spellsong Trance at 13 AP, just enough in Feydark for cha to hit/dmg and You've Got my Back, the rest in Warchanter, T3 Frozen Fury at least. It was sort of neat freezing and frying things. I did miss the fast movement and deflect arrows from swash... and I don't know about the deflect arrows but if this tree is replacing Swash it really ought to include the Bard Fast movement option too. My feeling is... its still thematic because lightning is fast, the Flash gives off electricity as he runs (I know different genre but still), & isn't the Monk Wind/Elec stance about speed too?

Forgot to say my Spellsinger on live is 41 Spellsinger, equal parts Feydark and Inquisitive because she's mainly about CC and doesn't do much damage by herself. She's support for hubby and kids. I also have a swash bard but she doesn't put anything in SS past getting Magical Training.

[NightHiker]

... and I don't know about the deflect arrows but if this tree is replacing Swash it really ought to include the Bard Fast movement option too.

It already has the bard fast movement one in the second tier. It doesn't have deflect arrows or uncanny dodge, though. I guess deflect arrows would still thematically fit as well, since one could deflect them with a gust of wind, but we can't have it all, I suppose. I have played a bit with Swash on my Spellsinger as the third three for those exact same things, but in the end decided to go with Falconry for the helpless damage, since I make stuff helpless all the time. Been enjoying the added damage more than I miss the defenses. I think for a hybrid melee/caster build Swash could still make sense for a Stormsinger, but the main idea here seems to still be a caster, so Spellsinger adds more to the pot than Swash in my view. I guess to each their own.

With Stormsinger I'll possibly forfeit Falconry and go either 41 spellsinger/ 31 Stormsinger or the other way around, figuring the loss of helpless damage will be more than made up for with the added regular dps. Will have to test things out, though.

Cheers,
NH

[Aelonwy]

It already has the bard fast movement one in the second tier. It doesn't have deflect arrows or uncanny dodge, though. I guess deflect arrows would still thematically fit as well, since one could deflect them with a gust of wind, but we can't have it all, I suppose. I have played a bit with Swash on my Spellsinger as the third three for those exact same things, but in the end decided to go with Falconry for the helpless damage, since I make stuff helpless all the time. Been enjoying the added damage more than I miss the defenses. I think for a hybrid melee/caster build Swash could still make sense for a Stormsinger, but the main idea here seems to still be a caster, so Spellsinger adds more to the pot than Swash in my view. I guess to each their own.

With Stormsinger I'll possibly forfeit Falconry and go either 41 spellsinger/ 31 Stormsinger or the other way around, figuring the loss of helpless damage will be more than made up for with the added regular dps. Will have to test things out, though.

Cheers,
NH

I must have missed it when I was filling points out for spellcasting effects and lightning strikage. It was the one I indicated above, I did only get on to test one character with Stormsinger and the changes to Divine Disciple. I have lots of bards on live but only 1 cleric currently. No interest in monk/pally but I don't play monk. My play time is limited and I've been spending most of it on HC trying to carefully inch my way along.

[SpardaX]

So is core 4 of warchanter just kinda only 10hp for a stormsinger bard with this change?

Change what you want to change, I'm not going to enter this Buffs vs CC Spells debate, but I am also interested in this question. If you do decide to go with the currently proposed change of buffs lost, what happens to tree abilities directly related to said buff?

Remove the need for Inspire Greatness? Just have the Charisma Score Temp HP be a thing all on it's own? Or Lose the feature entirely, and settle on a lv 12 Core that just gives "+10 HP"?

I know you guys can't always have the entire game memorized, but I think where possible, if you do plan to remove a feature that has an enhancement directly related to it, you should probably mention what happens with the enhancement.

[Pandjed]

While I'm all for changing songs (being one of the people that complained that this version is basically a better bard), I do feel that getting to those feats is kinda half-baken. You basically lose on your songs:

• +3 music bonus to attack rolls, damage rolls, and saving throws versus fear
• +4 Music Bonus to Armor Class, +4% Music Bonus to Dodge, and a +4 Music bonus to all saves
• +20 Temporary Hit Points, +3 Physical Resistance Rating, an +10 Healing Amplification

This isn't little, but it's not much either, and it's only natural, as most of the good buffs bards are known for are in warchanter and spellsinger, so instead of a bard who is just better, we get a bard that does get slightly worse at buffing, but still plays mostly like any offensive spellsinger (and most players will go t5 in spellsinger in endgame, cuz party expectations and mass hold).

What about removing enchantment spells? Unless it also hits spellsingers t5, it's kinda neglectable. Yeah, losing the dances will be a bit of a pity, but there are enough dancing sphere casters to cover the rather special conditions to use it. Do we want to lose mass hold? This would definitely be the point that may make or break this archetype's popularity. So if that's the decision, be cautious.

How would hitting fascinate work? Fascinate is probably the most reliable CC out there, but also the one that requires the most player skill because of its long animation, so many players wouldn't feel it. The other active songs are even more seldom used (put your hand over your heart and admit that you don't even remember most of them).



How would I go about it? Of course hard, harsh, unfair, and more in line with narrative than balance. :P

1.) Seriously trim down the advanced enchantment spells in the spelllist, including making it so, that stormsingers can't choose mass hold in t5 spellsinger. For that, add some cold spells into the spellbook as well, not only as SLAs.

2.) Make some point reductions to swashbuckler to bridge, until it gets a proper rework (a proper rework is preferable, but probably not possible time-wise).

3.) Exchange several of the song feats that comes with class progression.

1. Fascinate gets replaced by a song (let's call it "Like a Hurricane"), that can knock down opponents, working on the fascinate model and allowing further targetting by adding enhancements that improves fascinate
2. Inspire Courage gets replaced by "Stormheart", which grants a +3 music bonus to MRR, lightning, sonic, and cold absorption (these will scale), as well as +5 electric, sonic, and cold Spell Power.
3. Suggestion will be replaced with a feat, that debuffs the targets that were hit by "Like a Hurricane", maybe making them helpless and debuffing their saves for 30 seconds
4. Song of Freedom gets replaced by a song (I am the Storm!), that grants temporary spellpoints or make the next spell cost 0 SP. Put it on a 30s cooldown or so to avoid some nasty synergies in epics
5. Replace Heroics with "Like the Wind", which increases sneak attack damage, dodge cap, and maybe even critical damage
6. Mass Suggestion gets replaced with a song-based Abundant Step (Learning to Fly)
7. Make sure to not add more ways to get bard songs back quicker than now

So having both, a stormsinger and a default bard would make a difference in buffs to a cetain degree, so having both is a win for two slots in the party.

For the stormsinger, it changes its style of enchanting CC to sole evocation CC, while also having options to mitigate the lower SP by having an option to sacrifice songs they have after buffing the party. While the knock down may be as popular as the fascinate, it does work into the more windy than enchanting narrative I was aiming at.