Update 56 Preview 1: Stormsinger Archetype

[NightHiker]

I've posted this on the Discord server, but thought it would be good to add it here just in case, as it's the official channel for such things.

Some suggestions for Stormsinger:

I've been thinking about the archetype, and thought that since the theme is not just sonic+electric+cold, but also STORM related, that it would be fitting to have some spells from both arcane and druid lists that are more closely related to the storm theme than some pure electric spells. So looking at those lists, I see three spells that I think could be added to the Stormsinger's spell list (one way to do it could be making them available in cores 2, 4 and 6, for example):

Gust of Wind: Fits the winds from a storm forming theme and can add some CC component for lower levels plus QoL cloud clearer for higher levels, allowing the Stormsinger to have both the power to call storms and to "end" them. Level 2.

Sleetstorm - Again fits the storm theme and is a pretty interesting option since bards have FoM on their spellbooks or on their songs if taking the spellsinger lines. Even if for Stormsingers it comes at a higher level spell than 3, it might be quite useful. Level 3 or 4.

Ice Storm - again, self-explanatory in the storm, evocation CC theme, could be level 5.

The fact those spells all have some CC component also would make up some for losing mass hold in case one chooses to go with Stormsinger's T5, and it makes Stormsinger a full on evocation CCer instead of evocation/enchantment, making it more streamlined if a bit less versatile.

None of these spells are game breaking or op, they just add some more flavor to the Archetype, in my view, also adding better support for the cold side of it.

Fitting the storm theme there's also Call Lightning, Stormrage and Storm of Vengeance, but those are close enough to the Lightning Strike effect to be thematically covered already, I think.

Now, in line with Lynnabel's take that Stormsinger needs to lose something, what I wholehearted agree with, together with adding those spells, be it in the spell book automatically or thru cores or even as SLAs, I'd advocate for a loss of all the enchantment spells that are CC related (charms, holds, dancing, suggestion, etc) and really go all in on the evocation CC theme instead of Enchantment. It would be a good trade off (as long as they get those and maybe other cold spells compared to regular bards) and fits the theme very well in a sense that in order to get the ability to better control inanimate natural elements they kinda lose most of their ability to control animate/live beings' minds. There's still the issue of having Hold Mass in Tier 5 Spellsinger. That could stay as an exception for the investment on another tree, as it's T5 and prevents Stormsinger T5 anyways, and would require to keep the investment on enchantment DCs just for that spell - if someone decides to do all that for just one spell, I feel it's ok to keep it if they want to.

Cheers,
NH

[Lynnabel]

I've posted this on the Discord server, but thought it would be good to add it here just in case, as it's the official channel for such things.

Discord isn't a good place to put feedback if you want your feedback to be seen, it needs to be in an official place such as the forums. I haven't been in Discord for quite some time.

[Jerevth]

I apologize if I missed these being mentioned previously:

- Spellsinger C2 only raised the DC of the Stormsinger SLA T1 (Sonic Blast). The Tier 2 and Tier 3 SLAs (Niac's Biting Cold, Shout) did not increase.

- Spell Singer Violet Marigold Crown (T2) and C2, C3 did not raise the DC for the above SLAs, either.

Rereading the proposed removals you outlined (Lynn), OK, but perhaps throw us a bone for a couple replacements that are thematic for Stormsinger, instead?
I like the lightning being shared with others in the party; perhaps some more martial applications?
-Warriors' Chant: (Unified strikes- increases melee attack speed orstrikethrough ordamage (in place of Aria)?

But losing bardic feats from the level advancement is a steep reduction. Even a reduction in spell point cost or a once per rest T5 like ability?

edit Ride the lightning doesn't work- I cast soothing song, no buff on the top line, nothing in the examine window and no lightning when smacking the kobold around. (Poor kobold.)

[Lotoc]

Howdy friends, happy Thursday! I'm here to post some of our preliminary design changes! Note that all of this is subject to change, as are all things on the preview server.

Stormsinger:

• Step 1: Stormsinger needs to lose something. And I know, I know, saying it like that makes me sound like a comic book villain, but the underlying thread of feedback that I've gotten so far (and largely very much agree with) is that Stormsinger is too good for what we want an Archetype to be. We never ever ever want an Archetype to be strictly better than the base class at what the base class does. And right now, Stormsinger is shaping up to be way too strong. So, with that said...
  
  • Stormsinger will no longer get the upgrade feats for Inspire Courage and Bardic Aria as it levels. This means it won't get the following feats:
  • Improved Inspire Courage +1
  • Improved Inspire Courage +2
  • Improved Inspire Courage +3
  • Ballad Melody: Greatness
  • Inspiration Melody: Heroics
  • We hope that the loss of a significant chunk of its buffing potential helps Stormsinger fit into its role (DPS caster bard) without stepping on the support aspect of base Bard.

Thank you for the amazing feedback so far! If you have any further comments, questions, or suggestions, please feel free to post them here

So is core 4 of warchanter just kinda only 10hp for a stormsinger bard with this change?
I'm kind of more in favor of losing some of the enchantment spells from the spell list leaning more into the evocation focus, losing the Otto's dance spells perhaps

[NightHiker]

I'm kind of more in favor of losing some of the enchantment spells from the spell list leaning more into the evocation focus, losing the Otto's dance spells perhaps

Agreed. I think losing all the enchantment CC options instead of the inspiration buffs might be a good enough trade off, making Stormsinger a DPS/evocation CC Archetype. But if needed I can take losing the buffs and then losing the enchantmet spells to justify getting spells like Gust of Wind, Sleet Storm, Ice Storm and etc. If possible it could even modify the Hold Mass from T5 Spellsinger to do something else if you are a Stormsinger, or if not just plain disable it.

Cheers,
NH

[GramercyRiff]

Why play this over Sorcerer? I understand taking away the songs for balance, but doing this takes away what makes a Bard a Bard. Now it's just a Sorcerer but without what makes a Sorcerer great.

I like that subclasses will be a thing, but I'm not crazy about the three subclasses we get. Not a great start to what should be a great addition to the game.

[dogsoldier]

I don't think nerfing the Bard feat progression is necessary for Stormsinger.

As it has been proposed, you have the choice of either getting most of the Bard buffs from the trees (spellsong vigor, sustaining song, song of heroism, fighting spirit, recklessness), and just picking up a few things from Stormsinger, or going T5 Stormsinger, with the rest of your points in Spellsinger, not much room for many poionts in Warchanter, which already guts your buffs significantly.

[Seph1roth5]

Howdy friends, happy Thursday! I'm here to post some of our preliminary design changes! Note that all of this is subject to change, as are all things on the preview server.

Stormsinger:

• Step 1: Stormsinger needs to lose something. And I know, I know, saying it like that makes me sound like a comic book villain, but the underlying thread of feedback that I've gotten so far (and largely very much agree with) is that Stormsinger is too good for what we want an Archetype to be. We never ever ever want an Archetype to be strictly better than the base class at what the base class does. And right now, Stormsinger is shaping up to be way too strong. So, with that said...
  
  • Stormsinger will no longer get the upgrade feats for Inspire Courage and Bardic Aria as it levels. This means it won't get the following feats:
  • Improved Inspire Courage +1
  • Improved Inspire Courage +2
  • Improved Inspire Courage +3
  • Ballad Melody: Greatness
  • Inspiration Melody: Heroics
  • We hope that the loss of a significant chunk of its buffing potential helps Stormsinger fit into its role (DPS caster bard) without stepping on the support aspect of base Bard.

Thank you for the amazing feedback so far! If you have any further comments, questions, or suggestions, please feel free to post them here

Hmm....it's pretty close but I think it's a pretty good balance of stuff lost to stuff gained. It's hard because bard gets a bajillion things but if that list of feats is really all they're losing AND stormsinger doesn't get nerfed a lot, it's a good fit.

Ride the Lightning - Should really be something to do with riding lightning, it's too bad horn of thunder is so cool or I'd say replace it with a lightning bolt/wing combo...

[Tanky]

• Stormsinger will no longer get the upgrade feats for Inspire Courage and Bardic Aria as it levels. This means it won't get the following feats:
• Improved Inspire Courage +1
• Improved Inspire Courage +2
• Improved Inspire Courage +3
• Ballad Melody: Greatness
• Inspiration Melody: Heroics
• We hope that the loss of a significant chunk of its buffing potential helps Stormsinger fit into its role (DPS caster bard) without stepping on the support aspect of base Bard.

You've just deleted what makes a Bard unique in DDO. RIP.

[btolson]

I'm not sure why I'd ever want to play this, beyond getting the new PLs.

It can be played like an air sorc, except worse because:
1) bards don't get anywhere close to as many spellpoints
2) worse AOE potential, esp at high levels
3) no wings ability
4) no immunity bypass

It can be played like an EK except worse because:
1) WC is terrible compared to EK. Like where do I even begin.

So. What's the point?

[Arjen]

I'm not sure why I'd ever want to play this, beyond getting the new PLs.

It can be played like an air sorc, except worse because:
1) bards don't get anywhere close to as many spellpoints
2) worse AOE potential, esp at high levels
3) no wings ability
4) no immunity bypass

It can be played like an EK except worse because:
1) WC is terrible compared to EK. Like where do I even begin.

So. What's the point?

No doubt - totally lost interest in this now.

[Axcarth]

Why play this over Sorcerer? I understand taking away the songs for balance, but doing this takes away what makes a Bard a Bard. Now it's just a Sorcerer but without what makes a Sorcerer great.

I like that subclasses will be a thing, but I'm not crazy about the three subclasses we get. Not a great start to what should be a great addition to the game.

This!^ Exactly what I was thinking when I saw the songs feats nerf.

I'm not sure why I'd ever want to play this, beyond getting the new PLs.

It can be played like an air sorc, except worse because:
1) bards don't get anywhere close to as many spellpoints
2) worse AOE potential, esp at high levels
3) no wings ability
4) no immunity bypass

It can be played like an EK except worse because:
1) WC is terrible compared to EK. Like where do I even begin.

So. What's the point?

And this exactly!^
You have turned a good niche idea into some terrible bad air savant sorc ish spawn.
Yesterday: weeeee, got to try this!
Today: What?! Not gonna happen!

Mates, bards are their songs!!! bards are performance! (and not just for sonic sp), they give the inspiration and the encouragement to face the challenges that the campaign brings along. So, leave the songs how they are and go kill another class!

[EinarMal]

Agreed. I think losing all the enchantment CC options instead of the inspiration buffs might be a good enough trade off, making Stormsinger a DPS/evocation CC Archetype. But if needed I can take losing the buffs and then losing the enchantmet spells to justify getting spells like Gust of Wind, Sleet Storm, Ice Storm and etc. If possible it could even modify the Hold Mass from T5 Spellsinger to do something else if you are a Stormsinger, or if not just plain disable it.

Cheers,
NH

Yeah I agree with this, lose all the enchantment spells from the spell book, but keep the bard buffs. Agree that if you lose the bard buffs you are just a crappy sorc.

[Seph1roth5]

Uhh I don't think people understand what archetypes do/are for lol. They're not just adding stuff to a class, they're giving up some stuff for something else. Damage, healing, tankiness, buffs, etc. Give up some of one to get some of another.

If you want to be a pure electric blaster than yeah, air sorc. Stormsinger will be high blastiness but also have heals, buffs (you can still get a lot in spellsinger ya know) and other differences.

Getting a good balance of what you give up/what you get is hard but I think this is good. Giving up enchantment spells to get evo would've been fine too I suppose, but then isn't that also being less of a bard?

[Thar]

Howdy friends, happy Thursday! I'm here to post some of our preliminary design changes! Note that all of this is subject to change, as are all things on the preview server.

Stormsinger:

• Step 1: Stormsinger needs to lose something. And I know, I know, saying it like that makes me sound like a comic book villain, but the underlying thread of feedback that I've gotten so far (and largely very much agree with) is that Stormsinger is too good for what we want an Archetype to be. We never ever ever want an Archetype to be strictly better than the base class at what the base class does. And right now, Stormsinger is shaping up to be way too strong. So, with that said...
  
  • Stormsinger will no longer get the upgrade feats for Inspire Courage and Bardic Aria as it levels. This means it won't get the following feats:
  • Improved Inspire Courage +1
  • Improved Inspire Courage +2
  • Improved Inspire Courage +3
  • Ballad Melody: Greatness
  • Inspiration Melody: Heroics
  • We hope that the loss of a significant chunk of its buffing potential helps Stormsinger fit into its role (DPS caster bard) without stepping on the support aspect of base Bard.

Thank you for the amazing feedback so far! If you have any further comments, questions, or suggestions, please feel free to post them here

this kills this as a bard if songs aren't any good. Thats the basis of the bard class. The cleric archtype can still heal right?

neft bat it in another way.

the pally is already a garbage pally without the buff spells. The cleric version loses healing for free and domains.

[Rexis]

Howdy friends, happy Thursday! I'm here to post some of our preliminary design changes! Note that all of this is subject to change, as are all things on the preview server.

Stormsinger:

• Step 1: Stormsinger needs to lose something. And I know, I know, saying it like that makes me sound like a comic book villain, but the underlying thread of feedback that I've gotten so far (and largely very much agree with) is that Stormsinger is too good for what we want an Archetype to be. We never ever ever want an Archetype to be strictly better than the base class at what the base class does. And right now, Stormsinger is shaping up to be way too strong. So, with that said...
  
  • Stormsinger will no longer get the upgrade feats for Inspire Courage and Bardic Aria as it levels. This means it won't get the following feats:
  • Improved Inspire Courage +1
  • Improved Inspire Courage +2
  • Improved Inspire Courage +3
  • Ballad Melody: Greatness
  • Inspiration Melody: Heroics
  • We hope that the loss of a significant chunk of its buffing potential helps Stormsinger fit into its role (DPS caster bard) without stepping on the support aspect of base Bard.

Thank you for the amazing feedback so far! If you have any further comments, questions, or suggestions, please feel free to post them here

I can agree that any archetype needs to be giving up some parts of the base kit to justify other things but I'd also agree with others when they say that moving these feats takes away something core to Bards. I'd vote that if Storm Singer wants to focus on Evocation then removing Enchantment type spells from Bard's spell list might be a better start to swap with. An alternate ability might be to have a think about letting the swap be with the Spell Singer tree instead which would leave the class with two major trees to base their choices around while still having a core amount of buffs to use (which makes Bard feel like Bard). I've also seen suggestions that the feats be attached to core abilities of one of the enhancement trees instead, Warchanter perhaps? If its down to a vote mine would be to have the damage of Storm singer's spells take the place of the Enchantment spells Bard has access too over chipping away at the core buffs Bard brings to the table, or failing that something else like Spell Singer's buffs since the two trees already have some kind of overlap between them.

[dogsoldier]

I would prefer if we gave up some of what Stormsinger provides, rather than giving up song bonuses.

And that would probably be better longterm, since this is already getting nerf calls from players/devs before it even gets released. Tone it down a bit now, and perhaps we can avoid getting the whole "Famous Bowl" style of nerfs that FvS and Cleric are getting in the future.

[Shedrakzo]

Howdy friends, happy Thursday! I'm here to post some of our preliminary design changes! Note that all of this is subject to change, as are all things on the preview server.

Stormsinger:

• Step 1: Stormsinger needs to lose something. And I know, I know, saying it like that makes me sound like a comic book villain, but the underlying thread of feedback that I've gotten so far (and largely very much agree with) is that Stormsinger is too good for what we want an Archetype to be. We never ever ever want an Archetype to be strictly better than the base class at what the base class does. And right now, Stormsinger is shaping up to be way too strong. So, with that said...
  
  • Stormsinger will no longer get the upgrade feats for Inspire Courage and Bardic Aria as it levels. This means it won't get the following feats:
  • Improved Inspire Courage +1
  • Improved Inspire Courage +2
  • Improved Inspire Courage +3
  • Ballad Melody: Greatness
  • Inspiration Melody: Heroics
  • We hope that the loss of a significant chunk of its buffing potential helps Stormsinger fit into its role (DPS caster bard) without stepping on the support aspect of base Bard.

Thank you for the amazing feedback so far! If you have any further comments, questions, or suggestions, please feel free to post them here

Agreeing with others. This is a neat idea, but removing the Bardic Aria portions make any synergy this might have for Warchanter completely moot. The suggestion to add these features as core parts of Warchanter could help fix this.

Additionally, with the change to Iced Edges to scale with spellpower, can the base enhancement scaling be changed to 1d6/2d6/3d6 to get a bit more value from this ability? The old scaling reflects DDO back during the initial enhancement pass, though not current DDO.

It'd also be neat if Warchanter could get their own crit bonuses separate from Swashbuckler as well. A +1 threat range and +1 multiplier to non-swash weapons, perhaps?

Also, can the forced animation from Boast be removed or reduced? A 5 second animation lock is painful in a game where we are constantly moving, using levers, climbing ladders, etc. If the animation is broken in any form currently (being stunned, tumbling, climbing, etc.) you don't actually gain the temp HP and still lose a bard song.

Finally, is there a chance that Inspire Storm could apply to your own attacks? This adds back in some value for Warchanter buff/damage builds. If this is intended, it wasn't working during this preview.

[voxson5]

I'd rather you change the removed tree from swash to spellsinger, than to remove core bard mechanics

[btolson]

I'm not sure why I'd ever want to play this, beyond getting the new PLs.

It can be played like an air sorc, except worse because:
1) bards don't get anywhere close to as many spellpoints
2) worse AOE potential, esp at high levels
3) no wings ability
4) no immunity bypass

It can be played like an EK except worse because:
1) WC is terrible compared to EK. Like where do I even begin.

So. What's the point?

Uhh I don't think people understand what archetypes do/are for lol. They're not just adding stuff to a class, they're giving up some stuff for something else. Damage, healing, tankiness, buffs, etc. Give up some of one to get some of another.

If you want to be a pure electric blaster than yeah, air sorc. Stormsinger will be high blastiness but also have heals, buffs (you can still get a lot in spellsinger ya know) and other differences.

But like what, specifically? How do you see this archetype actually playing? Can you envision using anything but SLAs?
Bards get 525 spellpoints at L20.
Sorcs get 1730 + 2x bonus spellpoints (In fact, Sorcs have more base SP by level 8 than a bard does by 20).
Tradeoffs are of course necessary and fine, but I see a lot of limitations holding it back.

I'm fine with stormsinger losing the bard songs btw, that's not what my prior post was aimed at. But bear in mind bards were designed with low magical potential because their songs were meant to make up the difference. Different spend mechanics.


It would have made some sense to spend songs to unleash your Storm Power instead of making it all SP-based maybe? Like a Stormsinger that actually sings to create storms. But then you need a lot more (regenenerating) songs somewhere.


Don't forget, none of what Stormsinger gets is free, not even the bonus spells. I'd be shocked if anyone ever takes Lightning Ball cuz there are just so many important spells at level 4 and bard slots are very limited. Which of the 6 bonus spells do you think you'll actually take? Which ones will you actually cast regularly due to limited SP pool?


Most of the talk here is about balance, but balance doesn't really correlate to "Purpose" or "Playability". This seems like it's trying to do too much beyond what the core class envisioned without a solution to overcome it. I think the actual playstyle here will involve a lot of standing around doing nothing except waiting for SLAs to come off cooldown, or trying to melee with a tree that's truly terrible as a main melee tree. Especially in the low/mid levels when you barely have any SP at all, bard was never intended to nuke prior to this. In epics it'll probably do OK, but that's because destinies mostly invalidate heroic choices.

As for "Purpose"... is it just flavor? Like handwrap shifter barbs? Not actually intended to be great, just intended to exist for flavor? Maybe that's OK if so, but I'd like to know upfront if that's the case.

Somebody sell me on this. Am I missing something?