Update 56 Preview 1: Dark Apostate Archetype

[Propane]

Trying to guide you on how RS only effects low level cures. Cure Crit and above have MCL's high enough that T5 in RS has no effect.

Ameliorating Strikes use's positive spell power, the exact same value that Cure spells use. Ameliorating scales better and higher then any Cure spell can due to it using character levels and 2 HP per level instead of 1. Using previous example of a level 20 cleric, 600 PSP and level 32 at 1500 PSP (just for kicks).

Amelioration Strike @20: [20 * 2] 40 * 7.0 = 280
Amelioration Strike @32: [32 * 2] 64 * 16.0 = 1024

CLW @20: [1D6+2+23] * 7.0 = 199.5
CLW @32: [1[D6+2]+29] * 16.0 = 552
CCW @20: [[4[D6+2]+23] = 315
CCW @32: [[4[D6+2]+29] = 816

That is base values without HAMP or cure crit. but should give an idea on the scaling.

@ Amelioration Strike - don't forget to factor in the cool down, you need a target (in range) and have to hit it (looking at lag, etc...) and the opportunity cost of doing that vs something else.
I would compare this more to the RS burst - not Aura.

[Pandjed]

@ Amelioration Strike - don't forget to factor in the cool down, you need a target (in range) and have to hit it (looking at lag, etc...) and the opportunity cost of doing that vs something else.
I would compare this more to the RS burst - not Aura.

It's fair, and I use it on my FVS healer next to my beams for healing the melees in the raids.





Dark Apostate as a beginning archetype seriously shows how bad cleric trees currently are. Remember, when DD was looked at the last time, the devs were clear that it was just a hotfix.

One of the biggest problems with current cleric trees is, that they're outdated and don't really mesh into cleric well. They don't interact with domains (to be fair, they were made before the domains), and they're overshadowed to different degree by the FVS trees. While I'd think that redoing all three trees would make more sense (like baking light damage into radiant servant and giving DD negative, alignment, and fire damage), it would just maake a lot of users salty at this point.



So I'd suggest for three major points for all of the trees:

• All trees should have a Channel Divinity option, Turn Undead is forced onto clerics and EDs did mostly away with using turns, so we like to have our confront any foes in warpriest and such
• All trees should synergize with specific domains, like DD increasing spellpower you get from your domain, warpriest getting bonuses for weapon domaoins, and radiant servant for defensive and healing domains
• Progressing in one of the trees should cover 2 areas (a specific damage type, DPS, defenses, buffs, healing, etc.). They can have more than 2, but via multiselectors, it should come down to 2 in the end. Clerics are very broad as a class, but not flexible in the game, as their spell list is mostly concerned with buffs you throw beforehand and spells that deal with damage (by healing or causing it).

OK, now for the DA tree itself... here some thoughts:

• Going Dark Apostate for a decent melee cleric is sad, really, really sad. Especially considering that a cleric can heal himself fine without being undead, yet not using the stance would feel bad (you can give any of these melee/ranged buffs to warpriest)
• Replacing the Radiant Servant definitely makes it hard for this tree to breathe, as being too negative damage would give DD run for its money and being too weapon focused would do the same with warpriest
• I definitely like the debuffs here, good work
• The more "me"-focused abilities are also a nice touch
• Overall, making it a more debuff/defensive tree would give it more of an identity and complement it better with warpriest and DD

About new DD, one big gripe: Just make the choice between light and dark, while alignment gets to be in both. Yeah, it will make slotting items harder, but that's where two enhancements (one that allows negative SP for alignment, a second for critical profile) would do wonder or to make either items with a new type of enchantment that adds to negative and alignment (called Sinister or so). If possible, you could also look into an enhancement that swaps any nullification from negative/poison to negative/alignment, so that overstacking negative for maximal use isn't possible, if there won't be a new item enchantment.

[nobodynobody1426]

@ Amelioration Strike - don't forget to factor in the cool down, you need a target (in range) and have to hit it (looking at lag, etc...) and the opportunity cost of doing that vs something else.
I would compare this more to the RS burst - not Aura.

Check the context of the conversation, which was about scaling as the above poster was complaining it didn't scale into 10 skull reaper. I need to check if A Strike's healing effect can crit or not, it use's PSP and I've seen big numbers before, but I never bothered to check for crits as I always used it in a melee Cleradin build that also had Mass Cure Mod / Serious, consecration and most recently the EA aura. It's a build with constant heals happening.

A. strike is not going to main heal folks in 10 skull content, as that is a giant game of rocket tag and honestly doesn't belong in a feedback thread.

[karatemack]

Check the context of the conversation, which was about scaling as the above poster was complaining it didn't scale into 10 skull reaper. I need to check if A Strike's healing effect can crit or not, it use's PSP and I've seen big numbers before, but I never bothered to check for crits as I always used it in a melee Cleradin build that also had Mass Cure Mod / Serious, consecration and most recently the EA aura. It's a build with constant heals happening.

A. strike is not going to main heal folks in 10 skull content, as that is a giant game of rocket tag and honestly doesn't belong in a feedback thread.

It doesn’t SCALE well. The cures do when you factor in crits… which also SCALE. If I min/max for mass cures- they will heal more HP and more frequently in R10 than I could ever achieve if I min/max for ameliorating strike.

I think some level of gap there is acceptable and preferable as WP should be a 2nd tier melee option. But I was OBSERVING that the current gap makes you choose between being either a bad melee or a bad healer.

Duly noted that you are framing my observations as complaining though. Also- that you seem stuck on an odd definition of scaling which you limit only to the spell dice with no consideration for gear, crits or other scaling effects relevant to the topic.

Either way- this is a huge de-rail from Dark Apostate. While I’m hopeful for changes to WP, that isn’t the purpose of this thread. Looking forward to some dev comments on our earlier thoughts about DA.

[apep1412]

Past Life: Dark Apostate: +5 Negative Healing Amplification and +5 Negative Spell Power (stacks 3 times)

Doesn't the Negative Healing Amplification negatively affect living characters with it if they take negative damage? If so, could this one be a toggle?

[Xezom]

I love the theme and overall feel of the Dark Apostate. I think the debuffing and evil damage set up is a really cool take on the traditional "holy" cleric. I know there've been some replacements and revisions stated in Lynnabels posts, but I've kinda lost track of what is supposed to be replacing what in what trees, so I'm going to give some of my feedback based on what I recall and understand as to where things are at this point. (Please correct me if I've misunderstood something) TLDR: Red Text, things I'd change and how. Blue text, Things I love. Please don't change or enhance I'd love more.

Core Points:
Love the idea of being a Shade (ala Shadowfell shade/priest). The Stacking Incorporeality and Concealment is actually VERY defensively powerful.
Bestow Curse, Doom, Bane not having saving throws sorta undermines the increase in Necromancy DC for this tree, but I definitely understand including both for option purposes. Makes it so you're not suck with just using the debuffs for damage, which I think is an amazing mechanic and would love to see it expanded but more on the in a bit.
Capstone is Meh, but the cumulative bonus to incorporeal and consealment with the +4 Wis makes me not hate it, so I can totally deal.

Tier 1s:
SLA: Bane - Cool for the interaction with a later point and is not a spell you see used a lot so cool to see it here. Wouldn't say it's the best choice, but thematically it's good. I would have preferred something like a Wisdom Based version of the Drow SLA Darkfire just to give DA's something to work with in low levels for clearing and sticks to the Evil damage theme.
Apostate's Skills - generic skill AP dump. They all have them.
Shadowy Bulwark - Extra HP is never a bad thing.
Apostate's Curse - An interesting point to run along with Warpreist. Normally i'm not a huge fan of Gish mixing in "caster" trees, but I think that this is actually one that makes sense with the Warpriest being available plus the defensive nature of the DA Cores AND it's debuffing nature. I actually like this in this tree.
Traditionalist Caster - Same ol Same AP dump, indifferent.

Tier 2s:
SLA: Prayer - Again cool for the interaction with a later point, but without some offensive SLA in T1-T2 early game clear is going to be painful. I still like it since it is thematically fitting, but I do think it'd feel better if you already had access to "Pray for Mercy." Where you could move it would be the main challenge.
Dark Judgement - Free Spell points are never bad. AP dump.
Enhanced Turning + Cursed Words - Normally I skip turning charges but these two points together in addition to "pray for Mercy" in Tier 3 is where this build actually starts to seem like a viable build.
Enhanced Curse I - Gish upgrade.

Tier 3s:
Pray for Mercy - LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE!!! Absolutely love this point. By far my favorite part of this entire tree. I love things that take underused mechanics and make them usable as a build option in cool ways. Bravo Devs this point is a Triumph. My ONLY complaint: Because it is build enabling, it would be nicer to see it earlier in the tree simply because early clear issues when focusing this tree.
Endless Turning - With Cursed Words being a free nearby No save Curse and Dark Consumption being a damaging ability with undead draining, both using your charges, this actually is a decent point.
Dark Consumption - Again, I really like this point a lot for the same reason as Pray for Mercy. If There is one adjustment I'd make, I'd make it usable against ANY single target (since you are still limited by turn Charges) but that's just my personal taste. Its cool as is too.
Enhanced Curse II - Gish Upgrade 2
+1 Wisdom - *Finger Spin*

Tier 4s:
Blessings of the Shadows- Far more OP than it seems ESPECIALLY combined with your core points Plus return to Dusk (Next point)
Return to Dusk - Awesome point. This with Blessing of Shadows, Core points, self healing, Dark consumption, etc. makes you deceptively hard to kill.
Visage of Shadows - Only point I'd say is a waste. You get remove disease as a priest anyway. Don't bother unless mummy rot really bugs you THAT much.
Enhanced Curse III - Gish Upgrade 3
+1 Wisdom - *Finger Spin intensifies*

Tier 5s:
Benediction- I've seen notes about this being changed, but all the notes seem to more be for the Divine Disciple Multiselector not this point, so I'm a bit confused as to what the plan is here, but in it's original form: Not good. Doesn't really fit the rest of the tree at all. Only thing it'd do is help self heal. Consider instead maybe an upgrade to 'Pray For Mercy," that increases its damage, turn it into a DoT sorta like the Draconic mantle upgrades do, or add a unique debuff ability specific to the DA (See Necromatic Devotion for suggestion)
Ward of Shadow - Interesting. There are some quests where this will be EXTREMELY useful, but the majority of quests it's going to be unnoticeable/unused.

Necromantic Devotion - Meh. Since you get no save mod to Bane, Doom, and Curse and only one of those does the evil damage proc. This point more supports casting negative energy spells offensively with is, ironically, not really what this tree is about, and T5s should be the pinnacle of a trees identity. This point seems more geared for supporting your splash into DD, which is fine if it wasn't a T5. I'd rather this be replaced with a unique debuffing ability that applies Pray For mercy as well. That would solidify this as a true debuffing/hexing caster by having a unique debuff only found from it's t5. Something like: Malefic Orison - Send up a pray of evil intent. Enemies in an area are suppressed causing them to lose 4 AC, 10 MMR, 10 PRR, and 10 from each elemental resistance. Also applies Prayer for Mercy. This feedback/suggestion could also be used in place of Benediction if you REALLY want that +1 Necro DC.

Ultimate Heresy - Gish Final form and actually pretty cool. On crit vulnerability and free curse is pretty rad.
Shadows of Death - Self heal and offensive Evil damage Spell crit, always welcome.


Final Thoughts:

I am really excited to get more into this as well as the other Archtypes. I think it's going to be a great way to breath some diversity into the game that some of us have played for so long we automatically just skip over certain mechanics because they are under supported. For this tree my biggest feedback would be that either Pray for Mercy be moved down to tier 1/core1 OR some type of offensive Evil damage SLA be put in tier 1-2 just simply to help full spec DA be able to clear early on. In it's current state it'll be best to start as a DD for the offensive SLA's and when you can reach tier 3's, reroll into a DA. I'm not a fan of that sorta of play style. I prefer to start with some power that is fitting for the end goal of the tree. Second, the benediction point definitely needs reevaluated, but I know it was stated that it was being altered. I just cant seem to find the post that nails down what was said it was going to be for THIS tree. Not the wrong name used to talk about the DD multiselector point t5 version (it happens, I'm not mad and neither should anyone else be, just need some clarity). Finally, The Necromatic devotion point I feel should be changed to something focusing more on the Evil rather than the splash for DD. Yes I am aware you will probably still use negative spells to support your DPS so I'm not saying the point is useless, just that I think it would be much better to make it something related more to an upgrade to your Pray for Mercy or around your debuffing/evil damage theme.


I think this is going to be a really cool defensive debuffing class set-up that lacks some of the punchiness of other casters simply because it relies heavily on Pray for Mercy for it's damage which isn't effected by Metamagics due to being a in cast effect, but I also think that it's a very cool take on it as well. It's like a necromancer, but more like a hexer/evil priest than a life stealing soul sucker. Seems like an interesting trade: Higher defensive and debuffing options, lower party healing and DPS.

[Kasinata]

above all I wanted to say thanks for making his idea, I've wanted to see this in the game for a while and will most likely very much enjoy exploring the new cleric options
the cleric is my favourite class and I've been off and on the game for 8 years so i remember its humble early days.

I like the idea of also looking at upgrading the other trees too

the domains and the divine disciple tree play an important role in augmenting the clerics spell list, and this is what marks them apart from the fvs.
in the early pnp games the divine spell list is purposefully more limited than the arcane, and domains play a vital role in extending the clerics spell list into something that approaches the wizard. without which the cleric would very much be a second rate caster as far as spell damage and control go.


as far as running an undead cleric goes
I've run a wiz3-clr17 many times before, its actually really useful as a healer to have my 'heal-self' spell as separate from my 'heal-others', on independent cooldowns, which is exactly what the dark and light healing do.
incidentally harm and heal do not scale the same with spell power - if both are at the same spell power and same healing amp - harm does significantly more i.e. it implies heal is at a reduced effect from spell power and harm does not.

its also useful to be able to heal from palemaster's near by as well as exalted angels, meaning i can focus more on healing other and less on healing myself. reduced effect from positive healing does not equal no effect, and the end result can easily be a character that heals from both.


as far as damage spells go and the divine disciple tree go
I've used the alignment spells extensively for many years, i personally agree they seam op in heroic these days, tho sometime lack in epics, i guess they're really a relic of a much earlier idea, remembering back when they were super low damage and basically just control spells, which that previous update made into the highly damaging versions they are now. the fun of them is that they don't work against everything, and force the players to learn the different alignments of the monsters and whether they're outsiders or not. for me they always existed in conjunction with the light & fire spells and negative spells to make a complete spell damage set. (generally monsters with deathward have an alignment and are susceptible to them, neutral stuff is either creatures like wolves and bears where the neg & fire works well. they're biggest difficulty is golems and constructs. a good cleric doesn't just do one or the other, they learn all of them and know when to use each one of them.

the minimum caster levels maybe made sense back when the game capped out at lvl 20. and are essentially a relic of the pnp heritage of ddo. they make less sense every time the maximum level of the game is extended and I don't think the maths is as simple as we'd hope, that the bonuses in epic and leg to caster and maximum caster lever appropriately adjust for this.
originally lower level spells were meant to be replaced with high level spells - which the cleric would have accessed via their domains, or not had they went melee. i'm not saying it should be like this, but simply that this is where it originated, and has progressively moved away from.

the troubles with the warpriest tree
the game these days forces players, especially later on, the focus on either melee (doublestrike, and melee-power) or casting (vitally our spell DC),
I think part of what we're bumping into here is that the cleric in the earlier pnp games is presented as a kind of halfway between the wiz(magic-user) and fighter, hence the in-between basic-attack-bonus, ability cast whilst wearing armor and diety-weapon often adding a martial proficiency - and then the domains either filled out the Limited divine spell book into something that rivals the wizards, or the supplement the fighter side, in ddo these days bringing in the otherwise missing imp crit chance and dmg etc.
The way ddo has evolved means that it is no longer possible for a cleric to effectively be both melee and caster as the spell dc directly conflicts with doublestrike and meleepower in items, feats, filigree and other build options.

I think this is why many players are wanting to keep the Warpriest tree focused on purely melee and the dd tree focused purely on offensive casting, and the positive/neg tree on just healing - it makes our job of creating effective toons much easier if each tree has a clear functional focus and sticks to just that.

If the war priest tree needs anything, it needs actual melee attacks on par with other classes, something the warpriest (and warsoul) trees entirely lacks.
given that the few attacks it does have are single target, (the only melee cleave attack Divine Vessel has such a ridicules requirement to use just once... as a tier 5 enchantment...), do very small amounts of extra dmg, extra weapon dmg or a little light damage, no extra crit dmg or chance, and the control effects are very limited to say the least, and often have very long cool downs. Nothing based on stats or spell power class level or character level

The majority of deity weapons, specifically the eberron deitys, are single hand weapons. the the only options for twohand or one&half hand are iconic fallen realms heroes or the staff.
The cleric does not get extra feats like the wizard or fighter so taking cleave and gr cleave or other spring attack basically stops them from being able to take the meta magics they'd need to make the healing have full effect, let alone the spell dc for offensive spell casting. i.e. if you try to melee effectively your healing becomes limited and your offensive spell casting basically disappears

I think the paladins knight of the chalice tree gives the best idea of what id imagine an effective melee tree for the cleric to be,
by specifically adding aoe attacks like cleave and gr cleave, and charge attack and some other special attacks (exalted smite does a ton of extra dmg),
though obviously id want the clerics tree to be different, but if it was to ever stand up as a melee tree on character with no extra feats and heavy requirement to use meta magics and cast spells, it crucially needs to add attacks, which otherwise are left to epic destinies and multiclassing.

the Ameliorating strike isn't that effective because - it rolls to hit and can easily fail - has such a long cool down - and obviously receives nothing form meta magics. its at best a bonus heal, but will never replace casting a mass cure spell or positive energy burst with quicken, as these are guaranteed to work in a tight situation. as mentioned earlier none of the clerics melee attacks do anything significant towards dmg and smite foe with all its upgrades is no exception. it'd be funny to see a positive version of Darkhallow filigrees self healing :P would that fit into the healing trees as a weapon upgrade? instead of dmg which should left to the warpriest tree?

just wondering...
what's happening with the old radiant servant tree? is that just being left unchanged? I think the positive healing aura and burst could do with a little upgrading, making them them viable options vs the epic destinies. Exalted Angels aura is appears better than positive energy aura. and to me that feels kind of wrong.

& why can we heighten & embolden close wounds but not other positive healing? and wouldn't it be nice if these did ok dmg to undead, similar to what negative does to living. i can only hope xD
also id love to see renewal as a spell in heriocs more widely known to the divine casters.

there's no way to make such that heighten and embolden only work on the dmg aspects and not the healing aspects?
lastly id love for turn undead to be upgraded and stun undead properly, maybe get meta magics or anything really that would bring it inline as a viable ability throughout the later game

and might as well try :P
I love the wiz undead block -Cloak of Night - i guess there's no way to include a version of that for the cleric? :P

when boon& gr boon of undeath are combined with high prr & high dr & high neg amp, this makes for a powerful defence in elite and reaper 1. undead warrior clerics are potentially going be interesting

[Kasinata]

Tier 1s:
SLA: Bane - Cool for the interaction with a later point and is not a spell you see used a lot so cool to see it here. Wouldn't say it's the best choice, but thematically it's good. I would have preferred something like a Wisdom Based version of the Drow SLA Darkfire just to give DA's something to work with in low levels for clearing and sticks to the Evil damage theme.

i like this idea, a darkfire sla seams fitting

[Kasinata]

I think the Haste spell is in warpriest somewhere?

im guessing they mean the extra 10% on top the 30% (we all get from augment or haste) that fighters and paladins get in their def tree and stuff like that

[Kasinata]

...
Now the real issue with Warpriest is that it doesn't have a good source of critical multiplier and it's Core 5/6 are pretty bad with luke warm T5 abilities. What we can do instead is insert 6 levels of fighter to get the +1 Crit Multi / Range from there, or go War Domain to get Holy Sword for that crit bonus. The best combo I've found so far is 6 Paladin + 14 War Cleric, use the KoTC tree for melee support and ascendancy with some points in both Sacred Defender and C4 Warpriest. Makes a pretty solid melee that also has plenty of AoE heals / Buffs to go with it's Ameliorating strikes, pumped up Smites and fully compatible with Divine Crusader for even more AoE party support. Add in the EA healing mantle and occasional Consecration and your a giant bubble of HP.

i totally agree, this is what happens trying to make a melee cleric, we all end up subbing in paladin or fighter levels, and of them, the paladin probably works best as it gives those extra attacks in kotc. tho fighter is still good, and the defensive trees in both give the extra mrr prr and hp% and movement speed (someone else mentioned in a comment earlier)
itd be nice to not need to multiclass to get these effects