I feel robbed by heart of wood rules, seems dishonest

[C-Dog]

Btw, the logical reason is that you can't have more than 3 classes at any given time... the game has no way of knowing which level you want to swap around...

There are ways to code that into the process.

The current situation is that the "+# HoW" was just a patch on the original "Lesser HoW", and so has become a frankenstein monster of new parts glommed onto an unrelated (and inappropriate) body. Scary stuff.

[ChaosBuddha]

annoying? yes. dishonest? no

[ahpook]

...
Think about it - if you went to your tabletop DM and said...

"Hey, you know my Rogue 12/Ranger/Warlock that I've been playing? I want to change him to a Rogue 13/Ranger/Barb - that ok with you?"

... well, I don't know about the GM's others have had, but most of mine would look at me as if I was making a joke. In tabletop, I dare say it's rare to simply "change" the history of a character so radically.
...

To make this analogy work you should alter it to include:

The DM says "sure, just buy me a six pack" but when you go to roll your fifth level the DM says you can't take a Barbarian level. They also say you can't just go back to your original build (they do say thanks for the six pack) and you have to keep rolling to get to a build you don't want. But don't worry, if you bring them another six-pack next week they will let you roll up what you want all over again. How many would want to play with that DM going forward?

[Oliphant]

I understand why it fails (overly simplistic logic being jammed up by poor implementation of the three-classes rule). The logic to allow switching xyz to wyz is very doable folks. If you understand this, its pretty hard to read the description and understand it won't work effectively until you try and it fails to perform well, hence the feeling of being deceived. If you don't understand this then I guess LR hearts meet your expectations.

[Sylvado]

In what order did you originally level up? I am asking because the only way I can see this to require multiple hearts is if you took one warlock level early on and another at a much higher level.

The problem is not the hearts, there is no field in the character table for a fourth class.

[ahpook]

The problem is not the hearts, there is no field in the character table for a fourth class.

But you don't ever need to put a fourth class into the character table because you are not going to take the fourth class. The problem is in the Reincarnation leveling process. It should have been far better coded to not need to worry about the character table limitation.

[brian14]

The problem is not the hearts, there is no field in the character table for a fourth class.

I know that. My point is that "fourth class" may or may not become a problem depending on where in the order of levels is the class you want to get rid of. If his first two levels were rogue, then two levels of warlock, then a single +3 heart would be sufficient:

1. Rogue (no change)
2. Rogue (no change)
3. Warlock -> Rogue
4. Warlock -> Rogue

Then leave all ranger levels where they are, and change one Rogue level to Barbarian.

[Kayze]

Why LR is not really the point but here goes:

At end game, on last rogue life, all racial lives done and want to try out 13/6/1 for a bucket list item. Saves me week(s) of real life time.

That's what +20 hearts are for. Either pay up, or take the couple of days to go from 1-20.

[Sylvado]

But you don't ever need to put a fourth class into the character table because you are not going to take the fourth class. The problem is in the Reincarnation leveling process. It should have been far better coded to not need to worry about the character table limitation.

The character changes with every level, you are making a change to an existing character table, not creating a new one. This is an example of why I hate the F2P model. You get to play games for free and only pay for extras yet people still complain about an extra 6 or 7 dollars for a seldom used benefit and want the database redesigned for it.

[ahpook]

The character changes with every level, you are making a change to an existing character table, not creating a new one. ....

Exactly. Which is why it is poorly implemented system. It is entirely possible to get all the users choices in advance and then update the character table once the respec is complete. The limitation is not a requirement of the technology but of the coding.

[Oliphant]

That's what +20 hearts are for. Either pay up, or take the couple of days to go from 1-20.

The reason they offer the +5 hearts with the +20 hearts is because +20 hearts don't work the way you think they do.

[Oliphant]

You are about to take a level in a new class and you already have three classes. This is allowed because the remaining swaps on your +x heart will allow for you to swap out one of the other classes; however this swapping will be required and will constrain your available choices for your remaining levels. You will still need to conform to 3 classes at most at end of process.

Or message will say:

You are attempting to take a level in a new class and you already have three classes. Because the remaining swaps on your +x heart is not sufficient to swap out any of the other classes, this is not allowed because you would end up violating the three class maximum allowed.

People are correct that fixing this will require some resources on reincarnation mechanic update.

[Oliphant]

Yes, there are few more cases to consider, but only a few. This is the point where people just throw up their hands for some reason.

You are attempting to take a level in class x. Even though you already have levels in class x, this swap is not allowed because you have taken a fourth class and need all of your remaining swaps to swap out a class.

I think this might cover it tbh but its trivial to repeat this analysis and process a few more times. Almost always you can work out logical cases if you don't just stop.

[unbongwah]

OP could've fixed their character with a single +3 Heart of Wood (unless they also needed an alignment change), but that's not really the point. Setting aside the technical limitations of the current system, we all know the only reason why Reincarnations aren't free is because Hearts of Wood are a money-maker for SSG. Part of why I avoid heavily-multiclassed Flavor-of-the-Month builds is because I'm too lazy to heroic/epic reincarnate my toons - and too cheap to keep buying Lesser HoWs - every time SSG nerfs the FotM or the meta changes.

[Oliphant]

My point is not the hearts should be free though. I'm willing to spend, even go overboard to support. I should be able to get the +x I paid for if the end result conforms with the rules. The interim grid lock is due to overly simplistic logical implementation in the inner function.

I'd have to test if I could have switched Warlock to Rogue, then Warlock to Barb but I'm not spending on a heart for the test at this point. Maybe I just tried Rogue to Barb right off and then just gave up. That would not be typical as I'm pretty mathy and a triple checker working in risk and situational awareness field but it was also late. It may be the case I missed a trick there as it seems logical. It was several weeks ago. I did try, I did get the error message. If I recall I had a +5 and +1. I figured the +5 would work but it did not. My solution was to wipe out the Warlock with the +5 and add Barb with +1. Unless I test it or see a video I'm not assuming something works because its logical since I've already observed that not happening.

Whether or not I could have made it work in this specific situation, its still true there are cases where xyz to wxy works when it should and where it doesn't work when it should.

[SevenDeadlySins]

Recently had to use multiple hearts of wood I had stashed to switch 12 rogue/6 ranger/2 warlock to 13 rogue/6 ranger/1 barb.

There is absolutely no logical reason it has to be this way, there is no logical reason for the customer to assume this when buying hearts, and customers of all people should not be left feeling like they were deceived and robbed. I'm sure the devs are great people but how am I supposed to feel about it?

A single +3 HoW would have been more than sufficient to change classes over if properly done. Regardless of what class was taken first second or third

Exchange the two warlock levels to rogue then swap out a rogue level for barb level or swap warlock for a rogue and ranger level then change over the last remaining level class to bard at worst

I guess the fact that the HoW states clearly states but seems to be misunderstood or just ignored and then blame the seller when it is clear the class changes could have been done with a +3 HoW vs a +20 HoW it is clearly the sellers fault.

+20 Lesser Heart of Wood with a bonus +5 Lesser Heart of Wood

Allows you to Lesser Reincarnate with 20 class changes and an additional 5 class changes as a bonus

NOTE: Level up BEFORE reincarnating. Allows you to re-level your character and pick different feats, skills, spells, stats, and appearance.
You cannot change name, race, gender, or alignment.
The +20 and the +5 both let you switch the class you took at 20 and 5 different levels respectively, but during leveling you can never have more than 3 current OR potential classes.
The classes you had before reincarnating remain potential classes until changed and count toward your total allowed classes.
Thus a multiclass character with three different classes cannot reincarnate into a fourth completely different class.

[Oliphant]

A single +3 HoW would have been more than sufficient to change classes over if properly done. Regardless of what class was taken first second or third
.
.
.
Thus a multiclass character with three different classes cannot reincarnate into a fourth completely different class.

Super clear how this is a contradiction if you just read the plain text without adding or subtracting.

[gravisrs]

Go buy otto box, it's the same price as two +20 hearts You'll get extra PL as a side-product

[SevenDeadlySins]

Thus a multiclass character with three different classes cannot reincarnate into a fourth completely different class.

Super clear how this is a contradiction if you just read the plain text without adding or subtracting.

Contradiction how exactly it seems perfectly clear to me.12 rogue/6 ranger/2 you cannot ever under any circumstance use a +20 heart of wood to change your character into a Alchemist, Artificer, Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Favored Soul, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Sorcerer, Wizard excluding of course the alignment requirements of each class as well.

In addition to reading that line of the description it would always be prudent to read all the directions and information on a purchased item. The directions are your friends and choosing to use and an then wonder why it did not work as you expected or thought it would is by no means anyone's responsibility other than the user. Posting and asking before using something you are unsure of even after reading the directions never hurts either hindsight is 20/20. Misusing an item is hardly the sellers fault of responsibility.

[Oliphant]

Thus a multiclass character with three different classes cannot reincarnate into a fourth completely different class.



Contradiction how exactly it seems perfectly clear to me.

Yes and yet you say a HoW +3 would work. I quoted both.