The chasm between players and builds.

[krimsonrane]

Over the past couple day's I've watched videos that really highlight the difference in player power scales.
I saw one pali with 9.4k HP. 910 PRR, 560 MRR and 400+ AC. If I didn't see it with my own eyes I'd swear it was impossible. He wasn't even buffed.
I watched a few r10 solos. Then earlier today I viewed a video from someone just starting to experiment with DDO. He was so proud of his broken build. He didn't think it was broken of course. it did what he wanted it to do.
Watched some other videos with power scales between the S&B barb to the 10khp pali.

To reach those upper levels, it really is all about knowledge base, time, layers and farming.
Layers of heroic PLs, epic PLs, racial PLs, full reaper trees, farmed out crafted gear, raid gear, and all that comes with having those layers.
get gud in DDO literally translates as grind moar and farm harder.

If one plays at a rate similar to my own, we're talking about a RL decade plus of grinding to get from the bottom to the top. That's how vast the chasm is today. A lot like rl society I guess.

[eightspoons]

Hopefully someone will come along and give a breakdown of how that much PRR and MRR are possible because, even before the gear re-alignment I was under the impression that something like 600 PRR was the sort of figure that could be managed, but with massive investment. Even past lives are only good for 45(?) PRR.

Even if those sorts of defensive stats are actually attainable, surely the resulting damage has to be virtually nil.

[krimsonrane]

Hopefully someone will come along and give a breakdown of how that much PRR and MRR are possible because, even before the gear re-alignment I was under the impression that something like 600 PRR was the sort of figure that could be managed, but with massive investment. Even past lives are only good for 45(?) PRR.

Even if those sorts of defensive stats are actually attainable, surely the resulting damage has to be virtually nil.

Here he is. In the replies he mentions that it was situational. That was a long ass situation though!
.

[Azoyhn]

Over the past couple day's I've watched videos that really highlight the difference in player power scales.
I saw one pali with 9.4k HP. 910 PRR, 560 MRR and 400+ AC. If I didn't see it with my own eyes I'd swear it was impossible. He wasn't even buffed.

This is inaccurate. I was almost fully buffed at the time. I didn't have PRR only filigree sets on, and I was missing bard buffs + heroic companion from either halfling or harper agent tree for roughly +40 prr.

Hopefully someone will come along and give a breakdown of how that much PRR and MRR are possible because, even before the gear re-alignment I was under the impression that something like 600 PRR was the sort of figure that could be managed, but with massive investment. Even past lives are only good for 45(?) PRR.

Even if those sorts of defensive stats are actually attainable, surely the resulting damage has to be virtually nil.

Hello sir. It is me, the guy with 919 prr. I can't actually provide a break down because there's a lot of situational scenarios that occurred. I was also missing a lot more situational buffs. I'm looking at 959 total prr at the moment with buffs that i'm missing. I can hover 700 very reliably, however. Most likely i'm hovering around 660 at the moment with everything going, with 600 being stable while blocking, with just angelskin. It wasn't easy, and there's a video on me attempting a lot of the buffs, but at the same time I was missing a lot of the buffs. The builder is inaccurate because it doesn't have all the potions or best potions buffs that I was using. Sorry about that one, but if i'm holding 700 pretty reliably, i've proc'd my PRR buffs from reaper, clickies, guardian angel, new Unyielding core 4, etc etc. A lot of those are situational buffs that aren't reliable, except favored soul buff, that ones reliable because it has an infinite number of uses, therefore, it's reliable, which is about my hovering point of 700 prr. As for the natural breakdown of that, once again, can't really provide the breakdown because even I don't understand that full breakdown for 700 freaking PRR.

Here he is. In the replies he mentions that it was situational. That was a long ass situation though!
.

Hi. Thanks for linking my video. It was a screenshot from an 8 second video of compiling a large amount of buffs, so it was very situational and can barely occur at the right time. Appreciate it!
-Kyrr

That screenshot was called photoshop and fake by a certain group of players, and referred to as 'suspicious activities' or 'sus' for short, but that is 100%, guaranteed, full buffed with an 8 second video on the buffs that I used. It is naturally taken down, and probably won't be back up-but we'll see. It's just used to block my chat logs.

[krimsonrane]

This is inaccurate. I was almost fully buffed at the time. I didn't have PRR only filigree sets on, and I was missing bard buffs + heroic companion from either halfling or harper agent tree for roughly +40 prr.


Hello sir. It is me, the guy with 919 prr. I can't actually provide a break down because there's a lot of situational scenarios that occurred. I was also missing a lot more situational buffs. I'm looking at 959 total prr at the moment with buffs that i'm missing. I can hover 700 very reliably, however. Most likely i'm hovering around 660 at the moment with everything going, with 600 being stable while blocking, with just angelskin. It wasn't easy, and there's a video on me attempting a lot of the buffs, but at the same time I was missing a lot of the buffs. The builder is inaccurate because it doesn't have all the potions or best potions buffs that I was using. Sorry about that one, but if i'm holding 700 pretty reliably, i've proc'd my PRR buffs from reaper, clickies, guardian angel, new Unyielding core 4, etc etc. A lot of those are situational buffs that aren't reliable, except favored soul buff, that ones reliable because it has an infinite number of uses, therefore, it's reliable, which is about my hovering point of 700 prr. As for the natural breakdown of that, once again, can't really provide the breakdown because even I don't understand that full breakdown for 700 freaking PRR.


Hi. Thanks for linking my video. It was a screenshot from an 8 second video of compiling a large amount of buffs, so it was very situational and can barely occur at the right time. Appreciate it!
-Kyrr

That screenshot was called photoshop and fake by a certain group of players, and referred to as 'suspicious activities' or 'sus' for short, but that is 100%, guaranteed, full buffed with an 8 second video on the buffs that I used. It is naturally taken down, and probably won't be back up-but we'll see. It's just used to block my chat logs.

Yea, I saw it in the replies when I just went back to look. Didn't realize that was a persistent screen shot.

[Marshal_Lannes]

This is inaccurate. I was almost fully buffed at the time. I didn't have PRR only filigree sets on, and I was missing bard buffs + heroic companion from either halfling or harper agent tree for roughly +40 prr.

Hello sir. It is me, the guy with 919 prr. I can't actually provide a break down because there's a lot of situational scenarios that occurred. I was also missing a lot more situational buffs. I'm looking at 959 total prr at the moment with buffs that i'm missing. I can hover 700 very reliably, however. Most likely i'm hovering around 660 at the moment with everything going, with 600 being stable while blocking, with just angelskin. It wasn't easy, and there's a video on me attempting a lot of the buffs, but at the same time I was missing a lot of the buffs..... As for the natural breakdown of that, once again, can't really provide the breakdown because even I don't understand that full breakdown for 700 freaking PRR.

This thread is dealing with two separate but interconnected issues; fun within a game and the perceived character power required to attain that fun. The linked 100 hours video doesn't apply to anyone in this thread because you're already playing the game and have decided, well before 100 hours, that something in this game provides you with entertainment. A mantra I have said many times is that happiness is based on expectations. Far too often we hear quotes of so and so hit X numbers and did this. Or such and such build can do X. Mostly these numbers are exaggerated or only apply to extremely small sample points that are simply unsustainable. This is acknowledged in the quoted portion above. The OP said if someone loaded with past lives can hit 900 PRR that's a chasm unbridgeable. Then the person with the 919 PRR responds. They essentially say they don't have 919 most (almost all) of the time they have 660. So we've just seen how a stat metric was used as a base standard but exaggerated by nearly 33%. The funny part for me was the tank player saying they don't even fully understand how their PRR gets that high! Guess everything isn't about that meta-game knowledge which is so often touted as a demarcation point for players. Thank you to Azoyhn for pulling back the curtain on this and sharing the numbers within the numbers.

We can all pour over numbers and yes, adding numbers has been fun since the MMO genre was introduced. That is one aspect of fun. One could argue a new player/alt gets far more from this thrill than a 10-year veteran since they are constantly adding numbers through gameplay while the vet has topped out everything but the deepest grinds. But beyond numbers, does a game offer exciting moments? Yesterday, I was playing R6 Bullwugs on what many in this thread would call an underlived alt (Horizon Walker Monk/Archer 17 reaper points, maybe 6 PLs total). Two other people had first-life characters (tank, cleric). The rest of the party was a strong paladin and two solid archers. Going down one of the fire-trap hallways we were rushed by a Vengeance Reaper and a pack of Bullywugs. So we are all jumping, flying through constant fire traps, avoiding circles, DPSing bullywugs, while trying to stay alive. It was insane, thrilling, and an absolute blast. Only one party member died and we were all amazed at how well we escaped from what seemed like sure death. Most anyone getting a rush like this from a game is going to decide it is fun and come back for more.

Later, after half the group had to log for the night, the party was me, one of the archers, and the first-life tank. We lowered the difficulty to R2 and did Whispers of Return having no problems whatsoever as the tank was able to block halls or doors and we could DPS in relative safety. The first-life tank felt great about themselves and they should - their character, having no past-lives, can do its job in R2 on the newest content in the game. (note: they could not tank in R6) They did not need 919 or even 660 PRR to have fun in the game. And, more importantly, the game does not require them to have these numbers.

As players, if we set our expectations to "we must be able to zerg R10" then most of us will be disappointed. We will look at the mountain of accumulation required to do that and, focused on the grind rather than the fun we can have, we will get discouraged. No one required us to do that. These are our own self-imposed mental fixations that are preventing us from enjoying the game. Are there R10 groups out there? Yes. But there are also plenty of R4 and R6 groups on the LFM board where people can excel and have fun regardless of the character they are playing. I believe in a catch-up mechanic because it is fair but I also believe it is disingenuous to equate how fun a game is versus the ability to zerg that game on the highest setting it has to offer. There is a lot of enjoyment to be had in DDO on many different levels. Find a lane you're comfortable with and go write your story.

[Axcarth]

... As players, if we set our expectations to "we must be able to zerg R10" then most of us will be disappointed. We will look at the mountain of accumulation required to do that and, focused on the grind rather than the fun we can have, we will get discouraged. No one required us to do that. These are our own self-imposed mental fixations that are preventing us from enjoying the game. Are there R10 groups out there? Yes. But there are also plenty of R4 and R6 groups on the LFM board where people can excel and have fun regardless of the character they are playing. I believe in a catch-up mechanic because it is fair but I also believe it is disingenuous to equate how fun a game is versus the ability to zerg that game on the highest setting it has to offer. There is a lot of enjoyment to be had in DDO on many different levels. Find a lane you're comfortable with and go write your story.

This! Amén.
Enjoy the game!

[mikarddo]

As players, if we set our expectations to "we must be able to zerg R10" then most of us will be disappointed. We will look at the mountain of accumulation required to do that and, focused on the grind rather than the fun we can have, we will get discouraged. No one required us to do that. These are our own self-imposed mental fixations that are preventing us from enjoying the game. Are there R10 groups out there? Yes. But there are also plenty of R4 and R6 groups on the LFM board where people can excel and have fun regardless of the character they are playing. I believe in a catch-up mechanic because it is fair but I also believe it is disingenuous to equate how fun a game is versus the ability to zerg that game on the highest setting it has to offer. There is a lot of enjoyment to be had in DDO on many different levels. Find a lane you're comfortable with and go write your story.

Well said. I do play R10 - but some days I am having more fun 2-3 manning R6 or just zerging R4. Not all fun comes from R10 for sure.

[Azoyhn]

This thread is dealing with two separate but interconnected issues; fun within a game and the perceived character power required to attain that fun. The linked 100 hours video doesn't apply to anyone in this thread because you're already playing the game and have decided, well before 100 hours, that something in this game provides you with entertainment. A mantra I have said many times is that happiness is based on expectations. Far too often we hear quotes of so and so hit X numbers and did this. Or such and such build can do X. Mostly these numbers are exaggerated or only apply to extremely small sample points that are simply unsustainable. This is acknowledged in the quoted portion above. The OP said if someone loaded with past lives can hit 900 PRR that's a chasm unbridgeable. Then the person with the 919 PRR responds. They essentially say they don't have 919 most (almost all) of the time they have 660. So we've just seen how a stat metric was used as a base standard but exaggerated by nearly 33%. The funny part for me was the tank player saying they don't even fully understand how their PRR gets that high! Guess everything isn't about that meta-game knowledge which is so often touted as a demarcation point for players. Thank you to Azoyhn for pulling back the curtain on this and sharing the numbers within the numbers.

We can all pour over numbers and yes, adding numbers has been fun since the MMO genre was introduced. That is one aspect of fun. One could argue a new player/alt gets far more from this thrill than a 10-year veteran since they are constantly adding numbers through gameplay while the vet has topped out everything but the deepest grinds. But beyond numbers, does a game offer exciting moments? Yesterday, I was playing R6 Bullwugs on what many in this thread would call an underlived alt (Horizon Walker Monk/Archer 17 reaper points, maybe 6 PLs total). Two other people had first-life characters (tank, cleric). The rest of the party was a strong paladin and two solid archers. Going down one of the fire-trap hallways we were rushed by a Vengeance Reaper and a pack of Bullywugs. So we are all jumping, flying through constant fire traps, avoiding circles, DPSing bullywugs, while trying to stay alive. It was insane, thrilling, and an absolute blast. Only one party member died and we were all amazed at how well we escaped from what seemed like sure death. Most anyone getting a rush like this from a game is going to decide it is fun and come back for more.

Later, after half the group had to log for the night, the party was me, one of the archers, and the first-life tank. We lowered the difficulty to R2 and did Whispers of Return having no problems whatsoever as the tank was able to block halls or doors and we could DPS in relative safety. The first-life tank felt great about themselves and they should - their character, having no past-lives, can do its job in R2 on the newest content in the game. (note: they could not tank in R6) They did not need 919 or even 660 PRR to have fun in the game. And, more importantly, the game does not require them to have these numbers.

As players, if we set our expectations to "we must be able to zerg R10" then most of us will be disappointed. We will look at the mountain of accumulation required to do that and, focused on the grind rather than the fun we can have, we will get discouraged. No one required us to do that. These are our own self-imposed mental fixations that are preventing us from enjoying the game. Are there R10 groups out there? Yes. But there are also plenty of R4 and R6 groups on the LFM board where people can excel and have fun regardless of the character they are playing. I believe in a catch-up mechanic because it is fair but I also believe it is disingenuous to equate how fun a game is versus the ability to zerg that game on the highest setting it has to offer. There is a lot of enjoyment to be had in DDO on many different levels. Find a lane you're comfortable with and go write your story.

I'm not a guy that doesn't like to be honest. I try to be as straightforward as i'm able to get. I've heard of a few things that a certain guild has called me, and my screenshot because of the number. I didn't know we lived in a time where i'm being called names, and especially my screenshot being considered "photoshopped" when it's 100 percent legit. It's a game after all, if you can't seem to hit those numbers, jealousy is not the answer. I worked hard for my stats, and wanted to achieve a situational maximum to just show off that numbers are achievable with hard work, dedication, and a mind set to the amount of buffs you can fit, to boost the PRR maximum. SoonTM i'll hit 1,000 PRR still and show it off-then they'll still complain.

[mr420247]

And now for the new and improved reaper fragment grind

You only need what 200-300 minimum per gearset depending if you can win the rng lottery for a perfect reaper hat - ring

And once you hit 156 on your main thats it levelling it becomes a waste of time the only thing that will make it stronger is that perfect mythic-reaper gear set

So levelling an alt for pls while earning frags isn't too bad

[Artos_Fabril]

Over the past couple day's I've watched videos that really highlight the difference in player power scales.
I saw one pali with 9.4k HP. 910 PRR, 560 MRR and 400+ AC. If I didn't see it with my own eyes I'd swear it was impossible. He wasn't even buffed.
I watched a few r10 solos. Then earlier today I viewed a video from someone just starting to experiment with DDO. He was so proud of his broken build. He didn't think it was broken of course. it did what he wanted it to do.
Watched some other videos with power scales between the S&B barb to the 10khp pali.

To reach those upper levels, it really is all about knowledge base, time, layers and farming.
Layers of heroic PLs, epic PLs, racial PLs, full reaper trees, farmed out crafted gear, raid gear, and all that comes with having those layers.
get gud in DDO literally translates as grind moar and farm harder.

If one plays at a rate similar to my own, we're talking about a RL decade plus of grinding to get from the bottom to the top. That's how vast the chasm is today. A lot like rl society I guess.

Related:

[krimsonrane]

Related:

He's got a good point.

I know that when I look at my alts now, all I see are mountains of repetition to climb. Years of work, not play. And that's from a vet with 8 mules of gear. On servers where I have no main, it's not even a consideration to try and start that grind. Maybe that's why people like HCL. It may be the only way and time in which they can get that new player feel of play and reward.

In DDO, it can take longer than 100 hours to farm a single SOS. Just saying.

[Bagel99]

He's got a good point.

I know that when I look at my alts now, all I see are mountains of repetition to climb. Years of work, not play. And that's from a vet with 8 mules of gear. On servers where I have no main, it's not even a consideration to try and start that grind. Maybe that's why people like HCL. It may be the only way and time in which they can get that new player feel of play and reward.

In DDO, it can take longer than 100 hours to farm a single SOS. Just saying.

Its kind've why i wish TRs yielded points for a reincarnation enhancement tree that was account wide. All toons would benefit, everyone alt contributes etc. its honestly why i stopped playing ... so much to grind, even though i know i dont need the extra power boosts to enjoy the game, it just feels wrong when your not on your main sometimes.

[krimsonrane]

it just feels wrong when your not on your main sometimes.

I think you may have nailed it. When you know the grind is so long and the results so far way, playing another character feels like you're wasting time.

[KoobTheProud]

I think you may have nailed it. When you know the grind is so long and the results so far way, playing another character feels like you're wasting time.

This is exactly the problem.

Then you get to the point a year or two down the road when you realize that just playing your main at your pace and not worrying about when you will be "done" is the best way to play DDO.

Then you stop spending money on the game because you've already got your main where you need them in terms of tomes and other stuff.

[krimsonrane]

I wonder... how much would it cost a single person to go from 1st life to triple completionist if you only used ottos boxes.

[Bagel99]

I wonder... how much would it cost a single person to go from 1st life to triple completionist if you only used ottos boxes.

Triple heroic completionist .... epic completionist .... racial completionist ? So many things, soon legendary completionist im sure. What is that like 150 lives ?

[krimsonrane]

Triple heroic completionist .... epic completionist .... racial completionist ? So many things, soon legendary completionist im sure. What is that like 150 lives ?

Not sure. But say it is 150 lives. It takes me about a month to do a life. That adds up to a little over 11.5 years.

[Bagel99]

Not sure. But say it is 150 lives. It takes me about a month to do a life. That adds up to a little over 11.5 years.

Even more daunting is thats 11.5 years for one toon so long as no new races, classes or reincarnations are added. A huge time investment for ONE character, would be more understandable if it was for all of them.

[krimsonrane]

Even more daunting is thats 11.5 years for one toon so long as no new races, classes or reincarnations are added. A huge time investment for ONE character, would be more understandable if it was for all of them.

I'd be happy if I could use my alts as hires. But yea. For one single character. 11.5 years at my pace of a tr a month. And that's not counting time spent at cap just playing. I usually do a month of that. Which means my 11.5 is really 23 years to get 150 lives.